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Comment: Re:Burying the lede... (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40200445) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change

You're confusing their postulation with their observed data.

So you don't actually accept the findings of the study. Gotcha.

They *observed* that the more scientifically informed you are, the less likely you are to believe that human CO2 emissions are going to cause unprecedented, catastrophic global warming.

They observed no such thing. If you wish to prove otherwise, kindly cite the relevant finding.

They postulate that the reason for this is that skeptics are in denial - they avoid addressing the obvious conclusion that believers are ignorant :)

Ignorant of what?

Again - the most obvious way for us to test your assertion that those who accept the science are ignorant is to tell us what fact(s) they are ignorant of. So again: What new information or model disproves the established science concerning the anthropogenic causes of climate change?

You're being obtuse again - I've given you the key bit of information that discriminates between the scientifically informed mind, and the scientifically ignorant one: the understanding of the falsifiable hypothesis as the basis for the scientific method. Being so in formed, you seem to be hell bent on remaining ignorant of this very basic premise :)

You've claimed repeatedly in the past that climate science has no falsifiable hypothesis - and been refuted, by myself and others. So clearly, this is not the new information you need to prove your assertion.

Now. Let's examine then, the state of your assertion:

1. You claimed your position was supported by the findings of the study - but you were demonstrated to be wrong, by a mere perusal of the studies findings.

2. When the actual conclusion of the study (which was based on testing the hypothesis stated by the authors) disagreed with your worldview, you postulated a different conclusion completely unrelated to the hypothesis for the study.

uh oh

3. You then made a specious claim that the science underpinning the theory of AGW was not falsifiable even though (a) you have previously claimed this, and been refuted (b) you have previously admitted that it does and (c) most appallingly, you have just postulated a conclusion unrelated to the hypothesis for the exact study in question! How's my summary so far? Sound about right?

Comment: Re:Burying the lede... (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40192521) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change

You're being obtuse - the claim I made was clearly based on the cited article.

Erroneously - you should read the article more carefully next time.

The "new information" you're asking for is on step removed from the "new information" that the study purports to have found.

Several, in fact, since I'm challenging your assertion not the conclusions of the study - which in summary, says that:

1. There is an established view that people don't accept the established science because they don't understand it, do to lack of ability and the complexity of the science.

2. The study challenges this theory by testing for a link between scientific literacy, numeracy (analytical ability) and "concern" about the risks of climate change. It finds that in fact, some scientifically literate people are also sceptical about the risks of climate change.

3. The study then proposes (paraphrasing here) that these results support an alternate theory "cultural cognition thesis" which asserts that people deny climate change because it challenges an underlying worldview - even scientifically literate, analytical people exhibit cognitive dissonance. In other words - sceptics aren't ignorant. They are in denial.

Whereas you are claiming that scepticism arises from being informed, by substituting the concept of 'literate' with the concept of 'informed'. Hence my direct challenge to your assertion based around the information. If you can't actually front up that information, then your assertion is disproved.

I'll assert to you that they key factor is that the more scientifically informed you are, the better you understand that science begins with a falsifiable hypothesis. Understanding that basic part of the scientific method naturally leads to skepticism of prophets of doom who don't have a necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statement for their assertions.

Very well. I'll ask again. What new information is there that would cause us to question the established science on anthropogenic climate change?

Why do you continue to deny natural climate change?

Strawman arguments? Really? Do you really think that such transparently fallacious rhetoric will convince anyone?

Comment: Re:Burying the lede... (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40177929) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change

Desperate assertions of some vast conspiracy by a guy on the internet don't actually equate to new information.

Of course. But leaked emails that show scientific malfeasance do: http://www.ecowho.com/foia.php At last we get down to some detail.

(a) What emails?

(b) How do these emails prove "scientific malfeance" - I'm going to assume you usage of that nonspecific term is a mistake and you meant "fraud" - please provide proof of this fraud?

(c) Please demonstrate how this fraud would disprove the anthropogenic cause of the current climate change

As for predictions of cataclysmic AGW, what is the earliest reference you can find in the past 150 years?

Not my job to fill you in - you asserted that you had new information disproving the established science - but it now comes to light you don't even know what it is you are disproving. Not a promising start....

It is certainly true that in the past you have attempted, via rhetorical means, to shift the burden of proof on to others

The burden of proof is in the affirmative.

Yep - which in this case, is you. You claimed The more scientifically informed you are, the less likely you are to believe that human CO2 emissions are going to cause unprecedented, catastrophic global warming. Where is this new information?

And why the secrecy?

Don't you want people to know the truth?

Comment: Re:Burying the lede... (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40164943) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change

If that were the case, then logically there must be available information which suggests that the current warming is not caused by human emissions, and thus, the last 150 years of scientific research into the issue is wrong. But I note that, despite repeated requests that this information be provided, it has yet to be forthcoming. I can't help wondering if these secret teachings about the causes of global warming somehow involve Xenu.

I'd argue that it's mostly the last 20 or so years of scientific research, with their unattributed fiddling with data, hiding declines, and so on that is wrong..

Desperate assertions of some vast conspiracy by a guy on the internet don't actually equate to new information.

the other 130 years don't contain the assertions of cataclysm.

Wrong again.

Most pertinently of course is that you, personally, have been repeatedly requested to provide proof of your assertion

And you, sir, have been repeatedly personally requested to provide your necessary and sufficient falsifiable hypothesis statement, so we can at least agree on what we're talking about :) So far, no such luck!

It is certainly true that in the past you have attempted, via rhetorical means, to shift the burden of proof on to others - and failed miserably. And you will continue to.

Comment: Re:Depends on your definition of "concern" (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40153193) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change
You are ascribing far too much weight to your own level of concern - the following illustrates why: Suppose that, on your way to work, the route goes past a school and there is a crossing there. It seems a dire inconvenience to you to have to slow and even stop for kids crossing the road, so after due consideration you decide to simple drive on and mow down any kids crossing - thus avoiding the inconvenience. You pursue this strategy for several days, taking out a couple of kids on each occasion. You are then approached by the police. You refuse to admit wrongdoing because you remain unconvinced that the lives of a few children are worth you inconvenience.

But your scepticism and opinion in this case count for nothing - what matters is responsibility (you are responsible for you own decisions and the foreseeable outcomes of those decisions) and liability (you are liable for the hurt that you do to others).

The same principles apply to climate change - we are responsible for the choices we are making, and sometime in the future, will be held liable for those choices.

Comment: Re:Burying the lede... (Score 1) 525

by KeensMustard (#40153131) Attached to: Scientific Literacy vs. Concern Over Climate Change

The more scientifically informed you are, the less likely you are to believe that human CO2 emissions are going to cause unprecedented, catastrophic global warming.

If that were the case, then logically there must be available information which suggests that the current warming is not caused by human emissions, and thus, the last 150 years of scientific research into the issue is wrong.

But I note that, despite repeated requests that this information be provided, it has yet to be forthcoming. I can't help wondering if these secret teachings about the causes of global warming somehow involve Xenu.

Most pertinently of course is that you, personally, have been repeatedly requested to provide proof of your assertion that CO2 is ineffective as a greenhouse gas in the atmosphere (despite being experimentally effective) whilst simultaneously, some other orthagonal effect is causing the exact same rate of warming as the models predicted from CO2. So far, no information of that kind has come to light.

Why so secretive?

Comment: Re:And it's only twice as expensive (Score 1) 565

by KeensMustard (#40126781) Attached to: Germany Sets New Solar Power Record
Well the sun actually does shine all the time - but you are right in that it is not always practical to say, create the transmission lines that would be required to capture over an unconcentrated area of that size. Hence the reason that Germany and in fact all proponents of solar power see it as an element in a mix of solutions - providing for peak loads (which in most places happen during the day) whilst relying on other sources at night. In my country we have abundant sources of energy - huge supplies of uranium, a geological dome of hot rock sufficient in fact, to power about 75% of the country just by itself, abundant supplies of sunlight, huge swathes of undeveloped land facing the southern trade winds. What is blocking us is simply ideology.

Comment: Re:And it's only twice as expensive (Score 1) 565

by KeensMustard (#40123871) Attached to: Germany Sets New Solar Power Record

As I understand it, Germany's Feed In Tariff on green energy is almost the retail price of power (they buy energy produced by solar panels at hugely subsidized prices and charge consumers the tariff to cover it).

As I understand it, subsidies for other forms of electricity generation are just as large, if not larger - it's just a different form of accounting. For example, the coal industry pays next to nothing for our coal which they mine from our ground, and then later on, we pay to clean up the CO2 and other pollutants that they leave lying around.

Oh, and combine this with other generation systems? Good luck with that; taking half your generating capacity offline for an hour or two (but not every day, and not always half) is a major problem.

It's fairly normal for large parts of the electricity generation system to be offline - gas fired plants are fired up to meet peak capacity and are otherwise idle, coal plants have huge, complex turbines, and frequently have one or more of these turbines offline for maintenance, etc.

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