Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
Yes it bothers me, I just can't see a working alternative. The "invisible hand" is blocked by opaque decision making and info.
Gov't makes that problem worse, because it is the primary blocker of the "invisible hand".
If you can't see a working alternative, you need to realize the status quo is another option. You want to expand gov't power when it's been demonstrated that gov't is part of the problem - that is an irrational position.
Is your position that the current system is working or that any available alternative is worse. I don't think it's working particularly well.
Agreed. But the attempt should be made. There has to be someone you can appeal too. The courts don't cut it, the current US system is might (money) is right.
You want to regulate "influence"? Who is the mind-reading omnipresent omniscient individual you're going to put into power to "do something"? And having given him such absolute power, how do you plan to keep him from abusing it? An omniscient, benevolent being would be handy. Perhaps tighter laws regarding anticompetitive behaviour and a modification to the legal process that prevents large entities endlessly delaying and appealing until the smaller party runs out of money. I don't want to encourage trolls or "no risk-no cost" actions like DCMA takedowns.....
I'd rather be "gouged" on my consumer goods than to be subject to the thought police. I can buy from another company - the thought police are resisted with violence.
My limited understanding is that there was no effective competition. I believe that Standard was thought to be so powerful that they could effectively shutdown whole sections of countries.
Read the wikipedia article - not that it should be treated as an authority, but it gives a broad enough overview and does have sources. I will.
At the time of its breakup, Standard Oil had 60~65% of the national refining capacity. That does make it a powerful company, but again, prices were DROPPING (if this is monopoly abuse, let's have MORE of it). 40~45% of capacity is not "ineffective competition".
Furthermore, "shutting down" sections of the country means not selling product. That is giving away market share to the competition, and is something that undermines any "monopoly" power a company might have. There's short term harm, but feedback forces mitigate long term damage and discourage the short term harm from happening at all. Interesting.
It's not that I think companies are angels; it's that your cure is worse than the problem. Rule of law and free markets are preferable to any type of top-down centralized micro-management by gov't entities.
Do we have any examples of really free markets?
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
Difficult, will change with situation, matter for courts/regulator.
You're writing a blank check to the entity with a monopoly on force - the government. You hate monopolies, but that doesn't bother you?
Yes it bothers me, I just can't see a working alternative. The "invisible hand" is blocked by opaque decision making and info.
No that's OK, but you shouldn't be able to force a supplier to charge more for a new competitor or force a vendor to use your product.
Force rising to the level of violence is a crime. Force that is not violence is more accurately described as "influence", and measuring abuse there is difficult and extremely vulnerable to corruption.
Agreed. But the attempt should be made. There has to be someone you can appeal too. The courts don't cut it, the current US system is might (money) is right.
What's your opinion on Bell's breakup?
You dodged the question on Standard Oil. Why was its breakup as a "monopoly" a good thing when its existence had benefited customers (lower prices, [i]Standard[/i]ized oil) and there was plenty of market competition at the time of the decision? My limited understanding is that there was no effective competition. I believe that Standard was thought to be so powerful that they could effectively shutdown whole sections of countries.
As for Bell, I don't have much of an opinion - gov't granted a monopoly and then took it back. The loss of the monopoly seems to have improved customer options and prices, though some will still mourn Bell's R&D labs.
That is a rub, large companies can have great "blue sky" labs.
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
You need to define what it means to be guilty of "abuse of monopoly", because that can be very subjective. Difficult, will change with situation, matter for courts/regulator.
You list "pressuring suppliers and vendors" as an ill that needs to be fixed, but this ties into the need to to define "abuse". Businesses have and should continue to have the freedom to control their pricing, just like I have the freedom to sell an item at cost to a friend but sell it for profit to a stranger. No that's OK, but you shouldn't be able to force a supplier to charge more for a new competitor or force a vendor to use your product.
Outright corruption - This is a crime, but does not need any new rules for enforcement.
Re: Standard Oil - Why was it a good thing? http://mises.org/daily/5274
Key points from the article:
- 1. For that time period, oil prices continually fell due to Standard Oil's innovation in oil refining and transportation. Lower prices indicate lack of monopoly pricing, meaning no harm was done to consumers.
-
2. When Supreme Court made its ruling, Standard Oil had 150 competitors. Note that "monopoly" means "single seller", and is typically used to describe a situation where there are no competitors.
If anything, Standard Oil is an excellent example of badly applied gov't regulation. What was the actual benefit to consumers? What was the cost to consumers? Government used taxpayer money to fund a lawsuit that harmed Standard Oil; but Standard Oil wasn't doing anything that harmed consumers. That's abuse of government power, which is a type of corruption that increases the cost of business (translating to higher prices).
What's your opinion on Bell's breakup?
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
Maybe an independent NGO with enough clout to enforce rulings? Have to watch the watchers though...
Ruling on what though?
"You have too much market share, give me money"? No, more the nasty stuff that they can get done for, abuse of monopoly, pressuring suppliers and vendors, outright corruption into government oversight etc. I think it's good that they broke up standard oil, we're better off. They should have broken up MS, but MS got to them and they were found guilty, but allowed to continue and pay the "fines" in their own stuff, strengthening their position!
Outside of criminal activities (that cause direct harm; ex: careless toxic waste dispoal), everything else is and should be fair game.
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
I would agree that we need a ref - but the government is not a perfect ref, and often times will behave as a player. Agreed. It is disturbing how often they leave gov to work in the private sector in areas where they managed.....
Because of that, I'm less willing to delegate authority to the government - when they're as likely to make things worse as to fix things, there's 0 net gain to involve them.
Maybe an independent NGO with enough clout to enforce rulings? Have to watch the watchers though...
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
Comment: Re:reaching equilibrium will be painful (Score 1) 531
Why don't you go buy stocks in those companies with amazing % profit on investment, then? Get your cut of all that money. I do.
I'm not saying that every market good will have the cheapest possible price; I'm merely observing the reality that there are opposing forces in a free market that create a very good negative feedback loop that acts against "excessive profits". ("excessive" profits attract competition) I know these forces exist, but they do not apply in most real markets, for the reasons I stated.
Established markets may not have constantly decreasing prices, but that's because they've reached an equilibrium where the the "normal profit" is close to 0. (economic term which includes the opportunity costs) Hahaha. Joke. That the price doesn't change much doesn't mean that the economic forces of competition aren't there. Agreed, but they are stifled, think there's real competition in fuel?
Oligopolies have an incentive to cheat, Agreed. so that limits the "rent" of any of those types of markets. ? It takes government intervention to create a monopoly or break the market feedback loops that naturally exist.
Monopoly is the end result of effective market competition in most free markets without regulation. The feedback loops exist, but you assume no collusion and ignore barriers to entry, market distortion and outright corruption. Look at MS, their money and legal power/influence exerts a force like gravity that distorts everything around them. The normal rules don't apply once you are really big, you're too big to fail.