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Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47795287) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Microsoft Ireland would be constrained by european law from exporting the data. Is that not the case?

No. If that were the case, they would have said so. Instead they said, that it is Microsoft USAs data and the request needs to go through them. If it were European law that came into play, the US would already have the data as it is needed for a criminal investigation.

Effectivally, one Microsoft entity is arguing it is US property and the other is arguing it is Irish property. Neither wants to give the data up because it will have negative connotations to their subscribers. So, they are playing games.

Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47794967) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Actually, this same scenario happened with the banking industry and what the judge is proposing actually follows the international law and treaties that came out of it. In short, it doesn't matter where the assets are stored as to who has jurisdiction, but as to who has control over them

So there is a treaty convering funds in accounts held by international banks. Tell us why a company should be obligated by a treaty that doesn't apply to the industry in which it operates?

Because in modern banking, actual paper money isn't shipped back and forth, it is wired electronically and the treaty includes the records of transactions. Effectively, like the emails the warrant is wanting to get at.

Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47794957) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Some of us do understand it. Others define it as a copyable bunch of electrons because that allows them to steal movies and TV shows and games without listening to their conscience.

Others, like myself, understand digital is still property, but do it anyway because our own countries don't show these things on anything like an acceptable schedule. And we partly mollify our consciences by buying the DVDs later.

It has nothing to do with stealing. It does have to do with taxation. Intellectual property isn't taxable like personal tangible property and real property is.One can sell the right to use intellectual property, but one cannot sell the intellectual property itself.

Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47794941) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Also, this is not tangible personal property. It is a bunch of electrons.

Are you serious? Are you that much of an idiot?

There is a reason there is *intellectual* property law.

Property laws exist immaterial of what form the property takes -- trademarks and patents are all nothing more than ideas in our heads put to paper, and they are protected for a reason.

I can see this reasoning on another site, but I'd think the readers of Slashdot would have an understanding of what digital property entails.

The reason there is intellectual property law is precisely because the things covered under it are not tangilbe personal property.

Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47794929) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

If you think possession of child pornography is legal in Ireland then I've got a bridge for you to buy. I'll make you buy it twice for bringing in a "think of the children" flawed argument in a ridiculous attempt to bolster your position.

You miss the point. What people are arguing for in their support of Microsoft is that content related to US criminal activiity would be off limits if the US company stored the content on an overseas server. Whether that content is about a mob hit, ponzi scheme, terrorist attack, and yes, even child porn, it would be off limits.

The simple point to remember in this case is that an individual is suspected of criminal activity in the US and it is believed his emails have evidence of such activity. Microsoft is refusing to turn those over, even though there is a court order to do so, on the grounds that the US lacks jurisdiction because Microsoft happened to store said emails in Ireland.

Comment: Re:More accuratly "self preservation" (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793655) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

No, it won't. Europeans will still have the same protections they do under their laws. However, US citizens committing a crime in the US won't be able to store their data on foreign servers of American companies and have it safe from authorities. In otherwords, if a US crime is committed, it doesn't matter where the US company hosts its server farm, it is still under the control of that company and subject to the authorities.

You are incorrect. the case would impact Europian Microsoft customers as well. Indeed, the account in question is almost certainly held by a non-American.

Only if those European Microsoft customers broke a US law and used Microsoft to house the data about such criminal activity on their servers. The US still needed a warrant in this case to obtain the data in question. It would take a US court to tell Microsoft to turn over data on a foreign citizen and there would have to be cause to do that. So, it is likely that the only European Microsoft customers that would be effected are those that happen to break US laws.

Comment: Re:customer-centric (Score 4, Insightful) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793639) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

But if an American visits a foreign country, they and their property are subject to the laws of that county. We expect the same of foreign visitors entering our country. And if that foreign countries data protection laws differ from those of the USA, they should still be honored.

Having some foreign government insist on the right to root around in their citizens possesions while in this country, either as a tourist or a refugee would open up a human rights as well as an intellectual property can of worms. Imagine an H-1B worker's home country insisting on receiving copies of all of their work product while employed here.

But the criminal in question didn't visit Ireland and leave his data there. Microsoft didn't visit Ireland, either, but it did send the data there. Also, this is not tangible personal property. It is a bunch of electrons.

As for the H-1B worker, that is a strawman argument and has nothing to do with this. Here is a concrete example of what is going on here. I steal a painting in the US and send it via FedEx to Amerstam where it sits in FedEx's hangar waiting to be picked up. The feds arrest me and ask FedEx to send the painting back for evidence. Should FedEx say no, because it is now in their possession in a foreign country? Before you answer, the courts have already answered it and said yes, FedEx would need to return it as long as it is still in their possession.

Or, lets say two child pornographers both store the pictures they have taken in the US (so US law is broken) on Google's servers and one of the pornographers pictures happen to reside on a server under Google's control in Ireland and the other on a server under Google's control in the US. Is guy who had the luck of his data being routed to Ireland off scott free while the other guy goes to jail, when both of these accounts and servers are under Google's control? While the courts haven't answered this question, they have done so with banking and found that US banks must still turn over seized assets of US bank holders even if those assets are now held in foreign countries. Most other countries also have the same laws, too.

So, the question really is whether or not a criminal should be able to use a US company to hide it's data just because the US company has a server farm somewhere other than the US?

Comment: Re:They are not defying an order (Score 4, Informative) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793581) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Notwithstanding some really rare cases (e.g. interlocutory), which this does not appear to be, an order is unenforceable while under appeal.

Doing what an order asks is grounds for dismissal of an appeal, notwithstanding cases where acts are made explicitly with the agreement of the parties and sometimes affirmation of the court to be without prejudice to the right of appeal. However in cases of disclosure of information, the disclosure is generally a form of prejudice (since it cannot be undone) that undermines appellate entitlement.

So it is wrong to say they are are defying an order. They are doing what everyone does on appeal.

If they were to defy an order they could be held in contempt of court. That would be an interesting story.

Actually, the judge lifted the freeze on the court order, so Microsoft is in fact defying it. Microsoft states they plan to appeal, but until they do appeal, they are still defying it.

Comment: Re:This is huge ... (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793561) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

People and businesses and governments everywhere will be watching this one.

If America can force Microsoft to reach out to Ireland for data, then Germany (etc.) can force Microsoft to tunnel into America, right?

And, as mentioned, people, businesses and governments are already skeptical of the cloud, anyway.

People, businesses and governments may force "data nationalism" to become the norm.

They already can and have been doing so for years. If Microsoft wins, there will quickly be treatise signed with most countries allowing law enforcement to access data of their citizens suspected of criminal activity, just like happened with banking.

Comment: Re:re I don't care (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793543) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

The answer is no, because jurisdiction is territorial. You can't apply Ireland's law to MS in the U.S. simply because they have a corporate office there, thus the reverse is true too: you can' t apply U.S. law to a subsidiary in Ireland.

And yet Microsoft has no problem trying to apply US patent and copyright laws against foreign companies. The reality here is that if I was the criminal in question and stored the data on my personal computer in Ireland, the US would ask the Irish to sieze the physical computer and turn it over and they would. However, Microsoft isn't the criminal, they are just the email provider who happens to be storing emails related to the criminal activity and happens to store it in Ireland. So, the authroities have issued a warrant to Microsoft for that data.

Now, if the US was trying to sieze Microsoft's servers in Ireland, that would be different. They are only asking for the emails of a person suspected of a US crime. When this started, it wasn't even known they were stored in Ireland. Microsoft brought that up because they thought that was the only way to keep from turning over a customer's emails.

I would suspect that if Microsoft prevails, it won't be for long as we will see new laws about data laundering just like happened with money laundering through foreign banks.

Comment: Re:Customer-centric? (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793519) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

Self serving and customer-centric are one and the same in this case. I see nothing wrong with that, and I have nothing but respect for Microsoft doing this. They will likely be facing down some pretty serious daily fines while they wait for this to play out, at least judging from how cases like this have gone in the past. Good on them, whatever their motives.

Microsoft is fighting a warrant about turning over a customer's emails in a criminal case. Are you really arguing because the electrons are sitting on an SSD in Ireland, the criminal should go free, even though Microsoft has full control over those electrons? The individual didn't instruct Microsoft to store the data there, Microsoft did it of its own volition.

Comment: Re:More accuratly "self preservation" (Score 1) 396

by Dcnjoe60 (#47793509) Attached to: Microsoft Defies Court Order, Will Not Give Emails To US Government

It is a rational self-interested decision that may be good for consumers.

Of course it's "self interest", and more accuratly "self preservation". Micrsoft is a business that ultimatly has to answer to their stockholders. If it comes to pass that US "law enforcement" can reach out and get personal data from non-US servers, it will completely destroy Microsoft's European business, due the the much stricter data privacy laws in Europe. It would be "game over" for Microsoft in Europe.

No, it won't. Europeans will still have the same protections they do under their laws. However, US citizens committing a crime in the US won't be able to store their data on foreign servers of American companies and have it safe from authorities. In otherwords, if a US crime is committed, it doesn't matter where the US company hosts its server farm, it is still under the control of that company and subject to the authorities.

If Microsoft wins this challenge, then there will be no server farms in the US because any that were overseas would be exempt from US authorities. Just think of something as mundane as tax avoidance. The IRS comes in and asks to see your companies data, but you don't have to give it to them because it is in a different country? Or let's say some government agency stores its data in Canada. Now it is exempt from the Freedom of Information Act?

The reality here is that if Microsoft wins, there will no longer be a tech industry in the US because what is left will move overseas to avoid US laws.

To thine own self be true. (If not that, at least make some money.)

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