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Comment: Old News (Score 1) 1258

by Creedo (#39822813) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief
Hell, look at what Martin Luther used to write:

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.

Or:

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.

Reason and science are usually only tolerated as long as they do not threaten to undermine religious beliefs. The moment they do, then you see the irrational roots of religion shine through. The Catholic church, for example, is ok with evolution, until you point out that there was never a time where there was only two human beings. There are a few Eastern religions which I understand do not take this stance(Buddhism, if I am not mistaken), but it is the prevalent view in Western and Middle Eastern religions.

Comment: Indeed (Score 4, Insightful) 238

by Creedo (#39682585) Attached to: Voyager and the Coming Great Hiatus In Deep Space
In regards to funding such efforts, Neil deGrasse Tyson recently said:

“Without it, we might as well slide back to the cave, because that’s where we’re headed right now — broke.”

It's rather pathetic that we are willing to waste untold amounts of resources on mindless violence, and yet let programs which could further our knowledge of the universe sit unused on the drawing board.

Comment: Re:Madness stronger than Rationality (Score 1) 467

by Creedo (#39681503) Attached to: Magical Thinking Is Good For You

I still can't force myself to Believe, but at this point, I am seriously considering converting sheer practical benefits (hence why I'm posting anonymously)

So, you are willing to live a lie? Are you looking to be congratulated on that? I have news for you: (ir)religion is not the only basis for social gatherings. Find something else that interests you, and meet up with other people who like that. You think that religion is "verging on madness" and yet you are willing to try and live like that for the rest of your life? That, sir, is verging on madness.

Comment: Re:Blashphemy??? (Score 1) 796

by Creedo (#39673635) Attached to: Indian Man Charged With Blasphemy For Exposing "Miracle"

You're referring to transubstantiation. It's really convoluted, and I'm not Catholic, but the opening of the Wiki article implies the physical attributes of the wine and bread aren't altered, even though the "substance" changes to that of Christ's flesh and blood (no idea what that means). My crude opinion is that they made up an invisible attribute so their crazy theory can't be proven wrong by a simple autopsy.

You are both both correct. Both of those churches teach that the Eucharistic species(bread and wine) changes into the actual body and blood of Jesus. The Orthodox generally take the Eucharist under both forms each time(usually a small piece of bread soaked in wine on a spoon), while the Catholic take only the bread(though it is becoming more common for there to be Eucharistic ministers who offer the wine as well). The Catholics believe that both the body and blood are represented in both species(not sure on the Orthodox belief here).

Now, the Orthodox are not going to use the term "transubstantiation" with their rejection of scholasticism, so they'd use the term "metousiosis." In either case, both churches(recognizing that church is a flexible word here) insulate themselves from actually having to prove such ludicrous claims by claiming that there is a difference between what a thing "IS" and what its physical properties are. Eucharistic miracles were commonly claimed in early Catholic tradition, often times in conjunction with a persecution of Jews, who were held to use consecrated hosts as victims in private rituals. This nonsense has cost real people their lives, and it's quite disgusting. Even today, Catholics get upset about host desecration(see PZ Myers' Crackergate).

Comment: Re:Genesis 1:16 (Score 1) 233

by Creedo (#39518921) Attached to: Findings Cast Doubt On Moon Origins

I considered your characterizations for about .01 seconds (that'd be a value up to and including .0149999999..., to introduce you to basic math). I'm specifying it that way, incidentally, not because I can't specify it any more accurately, but because there is no necessary informational purpose to more accuracy considering the context. Then I referred again to reality.

LOL, keep truckin' Chuck!

Comment: Re:Genesis 1:16 (Score 1) 233

by Creedo (#39517713) Attached to: Findings Cast Doubt On Moon Origins

I scanned this for a single intellectually-honest response. Couldn't find one. So, clearly we are unable to meaningfully communicate. So, I'll just wait and let the 150-year 0% survival rate of your still-unsupported (beyond the mere name itself) Secular Humanism take care of it for me.

Yeah, I find it rough to talk to people with their heads as firmly planted rectally as you, too, although you are quite amusing, in your own infantile way. I'd say I'll wait for you to give up your childish beliefs, but statistically it is unlikely that you have the wit or drive to manage that much.

Comment: Re:Genesis 1:16 (Score 1) 233

by Creedo (#39516749) Attached to: Findings Cast Doubt On Moon Origins

Unbelievable. Same exact mental pattern. No, OBVIOUSLY, making an -equivalent- prophecy.

Oh, sure. Here's one: no person will ever exhibit the powers of Superman. Here's another: no person will ever grow to be over 100 feet tall. Here's another: no man will ever be able to tell a mountain to cast itself into the sea and have it happen. How's that for equivalent? So far, in the last 10 seconds, I have amassed 6.8 billion data points, and it's only going to grow. Damn, this is fun! I should have taken up prophesy a long time ago! Perhaps if you weren't so blind, you'd see that your "prophesy" is just the same. There is no evidence at all that men ever lived to be hundreds or even tens of thousands(if you buy into Sumerian mythology) of years old. Yet, the oldest parts of your holy book clearly mention people hundreds of years old. So, the non-idiots of the world would look at your prophesy and say, "ah, here's an attempt by Jewish story tellers at an explanation for why these supposed ancients lived so long, and why no one lives that long now." And we'd look at the comparable lifespan of our closest relative, the chimpanzee, along with the general lifespans of mammals our size, and we'd point and laugh at people who think this is the result of some divine edict.

Obviously, I would know about "Saint" Calment. I'm not doing this exact same thread again I already did a month ago.

So, you are stupid enough to have been corrected a month ago, and yet still make the claim?

Suffice it to say--two significant digits were specified, all the billions fit within that specification, per how math always works for measurements. This is one of a half-dozen ways she fails to be a contradiction, but since it's absolutely clear you have the same personality type as that other guy did for a hundred posts, and will randomly switch topics and evade the entire way along each individual line of argument, claiming that since you're still talking irrelevantly about at least one of them, you've met what's necessary for you to do with -all- the rationales, to establish a contradiction. Not going to do that again. "120", two significant digits, all of the billions fitting with in that, -one- statistical outlier across all time, not showing it inaccurate, but actually illustrating its accuracy as an endpoint as specified.

Ah, so you retreat from your claim, start tossing out personal reasons as to why I'm going to find your claim silly, and then claim that your god's word is vague enough to include a certain measure of error. So, tell me, where does it say in your holy book exactly how much deviance we can expect from divine pronouncements? With the increase in medical knowledge and technique, people are living longer and longer. How long will your faith in this "prophesy" last when it becomes more common for people to exceed 120?

I weight them all, as is appropriate, according to the context. If Joseph Smith had martyred himself for a particular belief, rather than living a life of a self-interested scam artist, that would have weight quite heavily as a significant factor.

So, you aren't evaluating the prophesies themselves, and their likelihood of being valid, but rather by the subjective behavior of the prophet? No wonder you are so screwed up.

I use basic, logical criteria to evaluate things, same as everyone does when not evading as you are now.

Liar. You use specious reasoning and selective observation to rationalize the beliefs you already have.

I was once very close to considering myself Objectivist, and would easily outclass you if I were arguing your side of atheism

Outclass me? LOL, you are barely even coherent! You hop from "I'm sure that I'll live forever," to "the fact that people have a lower average lifespan than mythical characters from my holy book is proof that god exists." In case you haven't noticed yet, you are a joke to me.

I also draw and synthesize quite a bit from Zen Buddhism, where appropriate, as well, and have for many years.

You should definitely favor that more, because the rest of it is nonsense.

As usual, no cognitive limitation at all across theists in actual reality, though I realize it's a favorite made-up claim for you, as you parrot and massage Dawkins' coattails.

See, before you can even start to "outclass" someone argumentatively, you have to be able to communicate. Here's another example of weighty sounding gibberish. "No cognitive limitation at all across theists in actual reality?" Do you even read what you write before you hit Submit?

Nice breezy abstractions. Still waiting for a single empirical example to reference

Well, I pointed the secular humanists out to you. It's not my fault if you are too stone stupid to look at them.

(including, I might add, during the millenia of inter-tribal bloodbath existing before any "religion" at all, that would have been necessary for you even to exist),

And how does this invalidate secular humanism in the least? Seriously, you think you outclass me when you spout things like this? Even assuming that primitive tribal life was particularly bloody(look at some of our closest ancestors, like the bonobos and chimps, and you will see social cohesion and cooperation in addition to physical altercations), it has zero bearing on secular humanism.

so I can know this isn't just your parasitical fantasy.

LOL

Comment: Re:I don't think so. (Score 1) 1128

He would have no market if no one was alive either. Yes there are some fundamental physical needs, but they are miniscule comparatively speaking, but as technology changes so does our need for resources. We can go on, to the limits of the universe and how there's a certain amount of energy per bit needed, but those are extremes, we have along way to go to reach any meaningful limitation.

I honestly don't see what you are missing here. You stated that

liberals believe there's finite amount of wealth to be had, and that's just not true.

The opposite of finite is infinite. So, you claimed that there is an infinite amount of wealth. As we pointed out, this is ludicrous. Your example illustrates this completely. A person cannot create wealth(at least, real wealth, as one can always "print money", though that doesn't represent an increase in wealth) without utilizing natural resources, either directly or indirectly. Software is just piggybacking, if you will, on top of the physical devices it runs on.

And the real point of this thread is that you can't just keep increasing your use natural resources and expect them to last forever. Some regenerate(like wood and food, albeit sometimes too slowly) and some are damaged irreparably by overuse(like overfishing and large scale pollution). There is a cost, in entropy, for everything you do or create. It is not "liberal" or "conservative" to make note of this physical fact of the universe. And we are seeing it. Sure, if you look at a big enough picture, the market will correct itself. After all, when a significant number of humans have died from war and lack of resources, there will be a correspondingly smaller demand. Some of us are not keen on waiting until the who nest is fouled before we start looking at how much we are shitting everywhere.

Comment: Re:I don't think so. (Score 1) 1128

Going back, his wealth is dependent on software, yes there are some physical aspects, there are atoms that have be moved, but nothing physical is made.

Good so far. Now, take it to its logical conclusion. If those "physical aspects" aren't there to allow for Bill's software to run, what value can he offer to trade for wealth? The answer is zero. In Bill's case, his wealth was built on PCs. You remove any of the "physical aspects" in question, and his software is completely useless. All the software mankind can write is useless if we don't have devices to run it on, and electricity to power it. The existence of utilized natural resources in a very specific configuration is the only thing that allows Bill to sell anything at all. If he didn't have someone else create something from natural resources, he would have no market.

Hence, the point: all wealth is ultimately based on natural resources.

Comment: Re:I don't think so. (Score 1) 1128

The richest man in thew world is rich because he creates nothing from natural resources, Bill Gates, who's wealth depends on software.

Are you daft? Let connect the dots. You see the physical device that you just used to post this moronic statement? That was built from natural resources. Oh, and the electricity which is used to run that piece of hardware? Generated by utilizing(and likely burning) natural resources. So, no, Bill Gates' wealth is entirely dependent on natural resources.

Except that some ingenious fellow creates an alternative fuel that is cost effective and makes a fortune.

Ah, yes, an appeal to magic. The availability of natural resources is completely unrelated to the ability for your "ingenious fellow." It will just "poof" into existence regardless!

Seriously, you need to pull your head out of your ass before you suffocate.

Comment: Re:Genesis 1:16 (Score 1) 233

by Creedo (#39512327) Attached to: Findings Cast Doubt On Moon Origins

I am saying, as clearly as it is in your own mind, since you've denigrated prophecy, I suggest backing that up by doing something even very marginally as notable, or acknowledge the much more difficult example is, in fact, notable.

Look at this sentence. It makes no fucking sense in the least. As notable as what? Making a prophesy? Sure thing: tomorrow, some idiot will kill someone else over religion. Here's another: at some point in the future, there will be an earthquake. Here's another: at some point in the future, there will be a war. Hot damn, I'm a prophet! Someone get me a TV show on TBN and have the sheep starting sending in cash, cause it's time for a fleecing!

The maximum lifespan of man, to the accuracy offered, as "120 years", has held true for the millenia from the time the limit was declared/predicted and written in Genesis to this very moment, over billions of people. As such, it is not subject to retroactive correction or anyone acting, intentionally or otherwise, such as to fulfill the prediction. It is beyond the scope of any individual or collective action to do that.

Oops, your god has failed again: The oldest verified person ever is Jeanne Calment, who died in 1997 at the age of 122 years 164 days. Source

So, what, now that you've argued that the limit was 120 years, are you going to move the goalposts? Either Jeanne violated your god's edict by living too long, or it was never a hard limit in the first place. In either case, your "prophesy" is proven to be as wrong as everything else you believe.

I was further noting how your "explanation" isn't viable for a broad range of prophecies. It simply defies common sense to assert that both a) a person is actively "faking" or "forcing self-fulfillment" to a prophecy, as that choice presumes that they know their religion is false, and b) they would cause or allow their own death to support it, knowing that. This situation is not analogous to the situations and forms of support of belief you are referencing.

Bullshit. Which prophesies do you want to acknowledge as true? The Mormon ones? Jehovah's Witnesses? Catholic? Eastern Orthodox? Seventh Day Adventists? The various and sundry "Evangelical" Christian prophecies? If you had the brains to study your own tripe, you'd know that ALL of those groups have claimed to have made and fulfilled prophesies. And that's only the few I thought of off the top of my head, and doesn't even count the written prophesies of the various "holy books." Hell, it doesn't even include any non-Christian prophets! It's universally stupid. Either they are precise and end up failing(like yours did), or they are so vague that they are entirely open to whatever interpretation one would care to apply and thus can never be objectively fulfilled(like the turgid nonsense of the Christian book of Revelation).

You've managed to drag this out quite a bit, for a situation where objectively speaking, both according to your worldview, -and- my worldview, your side of the discussion could offer neither me nor anyone anything

Well, you are correct here. Once one is sufficiently brainwashed by religion, it's rare that one ever manages to overcome their dogmatic biases.

(given, if you're wrong, your position offers nothing, and if you're right, your position offers nothing--because there would be no valid content to the domain under discussion). Given that from both our perspectives your stance is worth a maximum possible of nothing--are we done now?

Yes, a realistic worldview, based on an empiric evaluation and understanding of the universe, is not likely to appear to offer anything to foolish idiots caught up in the false majesty of fairy tales and bloody tales of divine vengeance. It's far too civilized a worldview to appeal to those enthralled with bronze age blood gods and their milquetoast progeny.

Comment: Re:Genesis 1:16 (Score 1) 233

by Creedo (#39504829) Attached to: Findings Cast Doubt On Moon Origins

Look, fool, I don't have time to explain how causality or time work to you.

Judging by your posts so far, I doubt that you would be up to the task of explaining anything.

If you think he can predict the age of your death alone, over a mere few decades, as opposed to that "nomad" getting the age right across billions of people, over future millenia, then try it.

Who is "he?" Are you suggesting that Dawkins is a prophet? Really, is this supposed to be a cogent train of thought?

If you're unclear that the prediction is -still being validated-, in an ongoing empirical fashion, allowing neither the possibility of "retroactive correction of the prediction" nor "acting such that the prediction will be the case"--then, well, as you've demonstrated in a number of cases, you just need to be able to think better.

Oh, yeah, it's still being validated? You'll have to be more specific on what particular cult you are a part of if you expect me to be able to pin down what nonsense you are speaking about.

In the alternative, if you think people are/were willing to say, "Okay, well, we have to fake this prediction, so, well, I'll assume the religion's false, but I'm going to go ahead and deliberately get killed for it anyway", do it, or drop it.

Do what? Fake a prophesy and get killed for it? No thanks, I'll leave that you lame ass religionists. Perhaps you ought to take a look around yourself. Do you not see the fools who follow every half baked preacher who rails about the end times? Do you not see the cults of all flavors, teeming with prophecies and miracle claims? Do you not see that, no matter what sect you belong to, there is a branch of your own religion which denies what you believe? The myth building, the reinterpretations, the syncretistic cult building, it's all still going on today! Only a true fool doesn't realize that it was going on thousands of years ago, as well.

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