Good, but too abstract for most people I think (Score:2)

by Omnifarious (11933) *

This is good, and I agree with you, but I think some of the claims require more abstract thought than I think the average person is inclined to do. Here is something I wrote [livejournal.com] on the subject that makes a much more direct connection between the lies behind t
- Re:Good, but too abstract for most people I think (Score:2)
  
  by Total_Wimp (564548)
  
  You're right, it requires more thought then almost any of the soldiers involved were likely to give, but the basic premise is still correct. All of these things show that our leaders are willing to lie, cheat and manipulate to achieve what they consider t
those reasons don't seem very likely... (Score:2)

by Error27 (100234)

More likely it was related to stuff like how the Geneva convention wasn't so important in the fight against terrorism.

"A new Battle for a new Millenium demands new Rules! If you believe in the rule of law, you're no better than the French!"
Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:4, Insightful)

by Red Warrior (637634) * on Monday May 10 2004, @03:27AM (#9104484) Homepage Journal

EVEN IF all your claims were true (and the only one remotely true is the bi-partisan PATRIOT act, btw), which I will grant for the sake of arguement, It does not either explain or excuse the actions of those MPs. Those MPs did NOT "act out" because they were unhappy with the Bush administration, or the State of the Union. It's fine if you wanna dislike Bush or his policies, but trying to tie the election results in Florida (and, btw, every single recount done using Gore's preferred methods showed Bush winning, but I digress) to the acts of these soldiers is unworthy of you. You are smarter than that.
- Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
  
  by Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
  
  Und ze most important, Herr Perens.
  "Ve ver yust following orders!" [strike-the-root.com]
- Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
  
  by Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
  
  Yeah,
  But a fish rots from its head.
  
  The whole administration and its endeavours - from the top down - stinks with preachy and disingenuous morality. A false morality which insinuates a message of power and predudice, with a sly wink.
  
  "We are right." " You
  - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
    
    by Red Warrior (637634) *
    
    If you really believe that, you must believe that a majority, or at least a sizable minority, of us over here are just looking for an opportunity to find someone to abuse. If you believe that, I am sorry for you.
    The very idea that these soldiers acted the
    - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
      
      by NeMon'ess (160583)
      
      Fark linked to a blog that supposedly has scooped all the other news media. Supposedly no private machines allowed on halliburton's network or something like that became no internet access period.
      
      http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDL i nk =94747
      - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
        
        http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,634 6 38,00.html [time.com]
        Saturday, May. 08, 2004
        It's not exactly every day that the Pentagon warns military personnel to stay away from Fox News. But that's exactly what some hopeful soul at the Department of Defense
      - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by VivianC (206472)
        
        We covered this recently in my statistics class. The only way Gore would have won would have been by using the standard of "obvious intent" which was opposed by the republicans during a complete recount of the entire state which was opposed by the democrat
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by NeMon'ess (160583)
        
        if a state is so close that a recount is needed, perhaps the electoral votes should get split evenly. that way gore would have won 280 to bush's 259.
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by VivianC (206472)
        
        A neat idea. Can you point out where that is documented in the US Constitution, the Florida State Constitution or the Florida elections laws? No? Well, then you are stuck playing by the rules that are in effect at the time of the election, not what you thi
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by NeMon'ess (160583)
        
        My reply was lighthearted. No kidding it isn't in the law books.
        
        Perhaps we should split all the close states. There needs to be some reform to make the 32 states that aren't swing states more relevent to the outcome. Just like the Senate increases repr
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by Bruce Perens (3872)
        
        Perhaps we should split all the close states.
        All of this ignores the fact that the United States is now capable of counting large numbers accurately.
        
        If it were a national election, rather than the sum of the decision of a bunch of state elections, it woul
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by NeMon'ess (160583)
        
        Sure, but even I'm willing to concede that under that system the candidates would spend most of their time going from large city to large city. Considering how many people live in cities, that's really not a bad idea, but I wonder how this would play in t
        
        Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by Bruce Perens (3872)
        
        I think they'd make more use of the media. Most of the voters don't live in cities, and it's impossible to present live before more than a tiny fraction of them.
        Bruce
    - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
      
      by Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
      
      A sizeable majority are complicit - as volunteers, not conscripts - in an illegal war of aggression against an innocent civil population.
      Complicity includes logistical and support positions, not just combatants. Some one who ensures a proper supply of bal
      - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
        
        by Jeremiah Cornelius (137)
        
        (Bush)a sks Iraqis to not let these pictures reflect on their attitude towards the American people... and yet when the bodies were dragged through the streets of Falloojeh, the American troops took it upon themselves to punish the whole city.
        Baghdad Burn [blogspot.com]
- Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
  
  by evilviper (135110)
  
  (and, btw, every single recount done using Gore's preferred methods showed Bush winning,
  
  Screw the recount. Bush's brother made sure that hundreds, if not thousands of black voters were incorrectly denied the right to vote in Florida.
  
  It's clearly obvious
  - Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
    
    by LordBodak (561365)
    
    It's just as obvious that thousands of members of our military, a traditionally conservative votership, were incorrectly denied the right to vote due to mishandling of their absentee ballots.
- Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
  
  by qtp (461286)
  
  EVEN IF all your claims were true
  
  All of the events he mentions are well documented, and your assertion that they are not shows you to be about as informed on our countries recent history as the average American (If you like, I can provide links for you,
- Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)
  
  by js7a (579872)
  
  EVEN IF all your claims were true (and the only one remotely true....
  
  Red Warrior is simply trying to shield his consciousness from the very obvious fact that his orders [missouri.edu] are illegal. [cornell.edu]
  
  When it became obvious to General Zinni [signonsandiego.com] that the orders were illegal,
Thanks (Score:3, Informative)

by Raindance (680694) * <johnsonmxNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday May 10 2004, @03:47AM (#9104543) Homepage Journal

Bruce,

Thanks for the article. It hit a chord with me.

I agree with the direction of your thoughts- I'd also suggest a couple possible additions:

We showed them that the Arabic people are terrorists with the way we've handled our War Against Terror.

We showed them that Might makes Right when Mr. Bush managed to turn a family grudge match with Saddam Hussein into a war with Iraq and no one successfully called him on it.

Take care,
RD
What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)

by RDPIII (586736)

With all due respect, you have many valid points, but none of them seem to come close to a convincing explanation for me. Disenfranchised voters etc. weren't on those soliders' minds, as far as I can tell. This article [sundayherald.com] paints a bleak but rather plausible
- Re:What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)
  
  by the_mad_poster (640772)
  
  So far, we've found this to be isolated to Abu Ghraib. That sits well with the suggestion that this was just some stupid country bumpkins with no respect for anything but themselves. However, as the article also suggests, this is not likely to be an isolat
- Re:What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)
  
  by RDPIII (586736)
  
  I didn't know there already was an article from The New Yorker [newyorker.com]. Read it and weep.
I'm disappointed (Score:2)

by joshki (152061)

You're far more intelligent than your article shows -- I have had a great deal of respect for you for a long time. If I have time later I'll come back and refute your claims one by one, but for now I'll just say that what happened over there is a dishonor
- Re:I'm disappointed (Score:2)
  
  by saden1 (581102)
  
  You can't claim all the successes and distance yourself from failures. Bush is the commander in chief and as they say "The Buck Stops There." Like an exception the failure bubbles up. Guess who is responsible for handling the exception?
  - Re:I'm disappointed (Score:2)
    
    by Incongruity (70416)
    
    There is a difference between responsibility and fault. There is also a difference between direct responsibility and ultimate responsibility.
    You're right, the buck does stop with the President, but that doesn't mean that he's directly responsible for wh
this has been a problem for a lot longer than Iraq (Score:2)

by gmack (197796)

I think that you are mistaken when you assume it's a recent problem.

One becomes like the person they hate most. We saw this when the US faught communism and they had all of those not so nice McCarthy hearings. We saw this when the US govt overthrew demo
Clever... (Score:2)

by Saint Aardvark (159009) *

...but not valid, IMHO. I agree with your points and the political views that go with them, and I'm baffled by the replies that have said your essay somehow insults soldiers (it doesn't) and the president (well, that's the point...so what?). I think what
- Re:Clever... (Score:1)
  
  by squiggleslash (241428)
  
  There was a great article in the NYT recently summarising the Stanford prison experiment
  
  The first-hand (eg written up by the organizer) account of that is here [prisonexp.org].
  Must admit I thought I understood the situation with the Iraqi prisoners a week ago, but it
Guantanamo? (Score:2)

by molo (94384)

Bruce, no mention of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp (Gulag if you will)? I think that shows more than others that we have no respect for human rights and the geneva convention.

-molo
- Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)
  
  by Bruce Perens (3872)
  
  The section on the PATRIOT act speaks of that point, although it doesn't mention the physical location. Good idea.
  Bruce
  - Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)
    
    by Bruce Perens (3872)
    
    Do we know of torture, etc., at Guantanamo Bay? Maybe it doesn't make as much sense as talking about the Iraq site.
    Thanks
    Bruce
    - Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)
      
      by Omnifarious (11933) *
      
      It'd take me a bit to dig it up, but they used 'torture light' techniques on prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. There's a personal account by someone they released (who was originally being slightly mistreated in a Taliban prison before we decided he should be
  - Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)
    
    by molo (94384)
    
    Bruce,
    
    The PATRIOT act is about domestic affairs, while the Guantanamo activies are all about captured foreigners. I agree, the abduction (not arrest) of Jose Padilla and the holding of foreign nationals without charge or trial is from the same cloth. Ho
In regards the debacle of the last "election" (Score:2)

by whig (6869)

The attorney for Albert Gore was one David Boies. If you want to know why Bush was selected, keep in mind that Boies made such a transparent bid for an improper recount that it was hard for the Court to correct the situation.

In general, courts do not act
fabulous article (Score:1)

by ExMember (212079)

Brilliant and concise distillation of what is most wrong with these modern United States, especially regarding the Bush administration.

However, I do not believe that most of those things had any substantial contribution to the war crimes comitted.

The s
Your reasons more significant for Generals (Score:1)

by sakyamuni (528502)

Bruce,

I don't feel that these reasons you cite contributed as directly as you suggest to our boys' and girls' torturing of prisoners. While they no doubt made it easier for those GIs to justify or rationalize their actions, the more significant factor
what you can do about it (Score:2)

by js7a (579872)

Thank you, Bruce!
Here are some good links to cast far and wide:

www.DrivingVotes.org [drivingvotes.org]

www.BushDraft.com [bushdraft.com] (see my JE for more info.)
Highly Intuitive (Score:2)

by Amoeba Protozoa (15911)

Bruce,

I think the list you compiled is very insightful and telling
of a broader picture that--sadly--nearly half of Americans do
not see--or worse--openly accept. However, I do believe it to be
the case that the list you compiled functions best as a li
Hmm... (Score:2)

by webmaven (27463)

Bruce,

A few of those are non-sequiturs, and you're missing a very important one: This administration considers 'support our troops' to mean 'put our boys in harms way, but not 'give them decent health and disability benefits'. It's a pretty important poi
Why it happened... (Score:2)

by Lando (9348)

Sorry Bruce,
But I have to disagree with you here. The fact is that the military does not condone this type of action and as such it is out of the norm. I don't know where they got their ideas but those ideas were wrong. I don't much care for the Bush
Uh oh... (Score:2)

by VivianC (206472)

Better edit out the bit about lying about weapons of mass destruction. Seems like we found some today [yahoo.com].
- Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)
  
  by Bruce Perens (3872)
  
  But the story says our side thinks it's a pre-1991 round. Not that I believe that the Hussein government were at all disinclined to produce WMD. This just isn't the red flag we've been looking for.
  Bruce
  - Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)
    
    by VivianC (206472)
    
    Yes, but the pre-1991 round were all destroyed according to Iraq. Mustard gas last week, sarin this week, hugh stockpiles of pesticides hidden in ammo dumps. Why am I starting to think that nothing we find is ever going to convice that anti-war people?
- Re:What can one say? (Score:2)
  
  by js7a (579872)
  
  I honestly can not see how these soldiers did what they did without direct orders.
  
  I can't see how they did it with direct orders. Following illegal orders is a crime. There are some things that decent people do not do.
- Re:thoughts.... (Score:2)
  
  by Bruce Perens (3872)
  
  I did stay in the hotel at 7 World Trade on July 11 that year, and carried out meetings in the towers. So, it came close to many of us. But I would not have had the US invade Iraq in my name.
  Thanks
  Bruce
- Re:thoughts.... (Score:2)
  
  by Total_Wimp (564548)
  
  Two things:
  
  #1 Putting Them Down: Irish terrorism largely stopped when the Irish people were given more freedom and the economy improved (largely as a result of that freedom). Palestinian violence dramatically increased as troops rolled in to the occupied

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Bruce Perens (3872)

Journal of Bruce Perens (3872)

Why Our Boys Tortured and Murdered Prisoners

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Good, but too abstract for most people I think (Score:2)

Re:Good, but too abstract for most people I think (Score:2)

those reasons don't seem very likely... (Score:2)

Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:4, Insightful)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Re:Speaking as someone currently serving in Iraq, (Score:2)

Thanks (Score:3, Informative)

What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)

Re:What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)

Re:What goes through a soldier's mind? (Score:2)

I'm disappointed (Score:2)

Re:I'm disappointed (Score:2)

Re:I'm disappointed (Score:2)

this has been a problem for a lot longer than Iraq (Score:2)

Clever... (Score:2)

Re:Clever... (Score:1)

Guantanamo? (Score:2)

Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)

Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)

Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)

Re:Guantanamo? (Score:2)

In regards the debacle of the last "election" (Score:2)

fabulous article (Score:1)

Your reasons more significant for Generals (Score:1)

what you can do about it (Score:2)

Highly Intuitive (Score:2)

Hmm... (Score:2)

Why it happened... (Score:2)

Uh oh... (Score:2)

Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)

Re:Uh oh... (Score:2)

Re:What can one say? (Score:2)

Re:thoughts.... (Score:2)

Re:thoughts.... (Score:2)