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Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

"Israel wouldn't not have been founded in 1948 without terrorism". I would object to "Israel was founded on terrorism"

Technically the two are equivalent. If the second statement was "Israel would not exist without terrorism" then I think you'd be correct.

The fundamental issue is that it was terrorism that led to the State of Israel that exists today. It doesn't mean Israel wouldn't exist without it, but it would be a different Israel founded at a different time (probably.) It's possible (though I think unlikely) that Israel itself would not exist in Palestine without terrorism. Personally I think it likely that Israel would come into existence in some form in some part of Palestine in the mid-50's - but that's pure speculation.

The Jane analogy is a good one, but the two statement are very different than my contention relating to Israel and terrorism.

My statement would read more like:

"Jane would not have acquired that dress on Tuesday without shoplifting"
"Jane's dress was obtained through shoplifting"

Taking the analogy further the remainder of what I'm claiming is:

"Jane really wanted that dress, and would likely have acquired it some day through means other than shoplifting - but that's not what happened."

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

Technically the Yishuv is just the population of Jews in Palestine, it doesn't suggest any authority in any sense. Rather like the inverse of the "South African Diaspora" where it represents a body of people, and a place, and a time, but nothing political (in these two cases.)

No doubt there was organization, just as there was organization in any significant Jewish community in the world (a sad requisite as a response to centuries of systematic abuse.)

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

most terrorists don't call in bomb threats

I think you mean that they don't do this anymore as it has proven more effective, thank you Irgun, to "whoopsie" and sink the ship with the deportees on it and "whoopsie" kill 90+ people in a hotel bombing.

It was a real smart warning plan too. Have a 16 year old kid call the hotel switchboard and leave a warning with the switchboard 15 minutes before the attack. Not anyone in authority, the switchboard. Then call the French Consulate and warn someone there 10 minutes before the attack. Then finally, call the newspapers and warn them a few minutes before the actual attack.

Even if they'd called the manager of the hotel with the first call it is unlikely you could evacuate the hotel in that period of time if the manager immediately believed what you were saying and sent out a general alert. Maybe they had disaster planning training and could have, probably not.

the british authorities' official position was that nobody with any capacity to do anything had received a warning. They did not deny that a warning had been sent.

Irgun's own description of their warning makes it clear that nobody with the authority to act in time had been notified. They told the switchboard operator. They didn't call the hotel and have the switchboard operator connect them to anyone, they just told the switchboard operator and hung up. If they'd called the French Consulate an hour or two earlier there might have been a chance that the hotel could have been evacuated, but they didn't. They called them 10 minutes before the bombing.

All of this is irrelevant anyhow. Calling ahead and telling someone you're going to blow something up just means you're a terrorist who wants to minimize casualties (if only they were all so nice.)

I think any objective observer would say, the outcome that they were going for was nobody dead and less a hotel.

No rational adult would think that. Most rational objective adults would say that this was a "cover your ass" move like other terrorists have done in the past so that you can later claim "we warned you." Otherwise you wouldn't warn some random person at the hotel and only 15 minutes before the attack...

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

It's not ad hominem when you pretend that something that any objective viewer would term is terrorism that you suddenly pretend that Palmach is an army fighting the British army. That bombing the King David Hotel is one army attacking another. That bombing a ship carrying civilians is one army attacking another. You are, quite literally, being intellectually dishonest.

That it isn't terrorism because .

The Jewish leadership, itself, labeled the King David attack an "unparalleled act perpetrated today by a gang of criminals" - so it seems pretty ridiculous for you to try and justify it as a legitimate 'operation.'

You'll excuse anything apparently.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

First off a vital component and founded upon are different levels

In this case they're not because "founded upon" is meant quite literally. Without terrorism, Israel does not get founded in 1948.

It would be an interesting mental exercise to try and predict if (I believe it was inevitable in some form) and when it would have happened otherwise. For all the violence there was in the Zionist movement - there were many people that were against the violence. If I recall correctly, Albert Einstein himself denounced Menachim Begin as a fascist and leader of a terrorist party (this is after the founding of Israel I believe - 1950-ish?)

The British were unlikely to stay much beyond the early 1950s regardless.

Agreed, I believe the British had been looking for a reasonable way out even before WWII.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

The Yishuv had wider popular support within Palestine. That was the point of the comparison it was a popular government with the people it governed.

Both Yishuvs (old/new) were simply populations of Jewish persons in Palestine, it wasn't government. The Jewish Agency was the effective government body of the new Yishuv eventually.

As for the Holocaust...

Yes, it is an interesting thing to contemplate. A fascinating 'what if.'

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

If you didn't want to be asked this specifically, you shouldn't have phrased your accusation in this way

Not at all, I simply pointed out that you were careful to say CARRIED OUT instead of asking for a list of terrorist incidents they were involved in. There are many terrorist incidents they were involved with, smaller is the number they themselves carried out. In any case they clearly did both.

Can you explain what an operation designed to prevent a ship filled with refugees from leaving, but ended up killing them by mistake has to do with terrorism?

Are you serious? It's not supposed to instill terror in deportees or the British authorities that deportee ships were active bombing targets? LOL!

I know about Palmach. Again, I'd like you to be specific, because it seems our understanding of what constitute proof is vastly different.

Yes, you're clearly intellectual dishonest.

Just a few of Palmach's terrorist activities, the Night of Bridges, the Night of Trains, Numerous ambushes against British and Arab personnel, numerous bombings (especially radar installations,)

I see it as one army fighting another

Of course you do, that's how you lie to yourself that it wasn't terrorism. If that isn't terrorism, then there is no such things as terrorism. You certainly couldn't call Hezbollah terrorists then, because at least they're elected, LOL.

You are correct that these foundations are found in actions carried out in Palestine as far back as the early 20th century. You are, however, missing the culprit. Firing at civilian buses merely because its occupants are Jews and accidentally killing an innocent, unrelated Arab with a bomb, and then declaring him Shahid are actions that Arab radicals in Palestine were doing well before the 1930's. These are the foundations of modern terrorism.

Really, Arabs shooting at a bus with Jews on it. That's the foundations of modern terrorism - LOL. Not bombing hotels. If that's the case then "modern terrorism" was invented in the 18th century in America.

That's what my previous reply was meant to be. You were specifying actions I was not aware of, and I asked for citations. Turns out, I disagree with your analysis (or, possibly, you were more ignorant on those matters than you thought you were). There is no reason to sound smug about your answer. This is how discussion is supposed to go.

Yes, little did we know that you would refuse to acknowledge that bombing ships carrying civilians in order to further your political goals was terrorism. Basically you wasted our time since there's nothing you'd acknowledge as terrorism unless an Arab did it.

Comment Re:Surely they can't be so stupid as to not... (Score 1) 403

Except that the idea of the police having a key to your house is entirely un-American. It has nothing to do with the intentions of your police today, tomorrow, maybe next week. It has everything to do with the fact that there is no reason for the police to have a key to your house.

YOU want to give them a key to your house, knock yourself out.

Force other to do it as well? That's where we have a problem.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

Can you cite any terror acts carried out by Haganah?

What a very carefully phrased question. Something the Iranian government would likely ask "Can you cite any terror acts that we have carried out?"

Fortunately, it's easy to point out where the Haganah actively and directly used terrorism to achieve its goals - try learning about the SS Patria. Read up on their Palmach unit. Learn what happened after Ben Gurion's famous October 1st (1945) decision.

By the way, were you aware that the Haganah explicitly approved the bombing of the Hotel David? Explicit as in "carry out the operation" explicit.

In other words, perhaps you should learn a little bit more about what happened before.

The bombing of ships known to be carrying deportees, and the bombing of civilian facilities (e.g. King David Hotel) is the foundation of modern terrorism - ironically adopted by the very people the State of Israel displaced and marginalized.

Don't get me wrong, there's TONS of things just as bad and/or worse that other countries have done (hell, we Americans intentionally committed genocide against Native Americans and to this day we basically wave it away with "well, that was how things were back then." I wonder if they'll do that in a hundred years in Germany (I doubt it, they seem to have learned from their mistakes.)

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

"...while the Yishuv had wider popular support..." - outside of the Jewish Diaspora? No, it really didn't. Don't confuse political sensitivity in the U.S. with popular support. It is, in fact, one of the more admirable things that they persevered despite the unpopularity of their goals.

The most horrible irony is that without the holocaust there would likely be no State of Israel today. That singularly evil piece of rationalized murder focused the diaspora like nothing ever before, and softened resistance to the (arguably) ridiculous basis of Zionism.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1) 441

It's not dishonest at all. Simply ask yourself the following question:

"Would the State of Israel have come into existence in 1948 without the use of terrorism?"

Any (objective) student of the post-WWII Jewish Insurgency would tell you that, quite clearly, the answer is no.
Would it have ever come into existence? It seems very likely that it would in some form - but not likely as it was when the mandate ended.
Violence achieved Zionism's goals.

Of course, we (Americans in this case) didn't just ask the British to leave the Colonies either ;) - but let's be honest about things.

Comment Re:Israel hasn't vowed to "wipe Iran off the map" (Score 1, Interesting) 441

I'm not anti-semetic by any stretch of the imagination, but perhaps a little history might do you some good - try examining the roots of modern 'terrorism' followed by the role of the Haganah (which later became the backbone of the IDF) in pre and post-WWII Zionism. Israel was, quite literally, founded through terrorism.

Israel murders plenty of people - in fact they're rather famous for being so good at it; however, so does our own government.

Saying that, yes, Iranian religious leaders are pretty much your typical religious zealots - assholes to a one.

Comment Surely they can't be so stupid as to not... (Score 2) 403


It all stems from the idea that principles only mean something when you stick to them when its difficult. After 9/11 the intelligence agencies were only to happy to abandon some of our most fundamental principles all in the name of "security."

The irony is that more people died in car accidents over the next 45 days - and yet we dumped some of the most sacred aspects of our country virtually without hesitation - and they were only too eager to justify it. FUCK them.

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