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France Sues U.S. and UK Over Echelon
Department of Justice Posted by Hemos on Thursday February 10, @11:12PM
from the coming-for-the-money dept.
gaijin|dog writes, "According to this article, the U.S. and UK are to be sued over Echelon. From the article "The British and U.S. governments are to be sued in France after claims that they have spied on French companies, diplomats and Cabinet ministers. French MPs claim to have evidence that the European Airbus consortium lost a Fr35 billion (£3.5 billion) contract in 1995 after its offer was overheard and passed to Boeing." " Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating,

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    FIRST (Score:0, Troll)
    by JohnKatz on Thursday February 10, @11:14PM EST (#1)
    (User Info) http://slashdot.org
    m00!
    Re:FIRST (Score:1)
    by xodarap on Thursday February 10, @11:32PM EST (#28)
    (User Info) http://www.rit.edu/~jbs3722
    you know, I was almost fooled.
    don't be fooled! (Score:1)
    by Jon_Katz (_) on Friday February 11, @12:12AM EST (#76)
    (User Info)
    Yeah, that troll ripped off my name!
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:13AM EST (#78)
    I hope not to offend anyone.. but in my experience the French are the laziest people on earth... 35 hour work week and still falling...:)
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:22AM EST (#212)
    Others would say they have their priorities right, and prefer to have a social life rather than spending every waking hour working towards that glorious IPO, like most americans who buy into the whole glorious capitalist free market "we can all be rich" fallacy
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:16AM EST (#232)
    It's a desperate measure to fight unemployment, which many nations in prosperous, but densely populated Europe take.
    Re:FIRST (Score:1)
    by kashko on Friday February 11, @05:16AM EST (#234)
    (User Info)
    Interesting set of replies here. Seems any effort by the US government to look at their own citizens is evil.

    But any other government trying to take action to stop the US government spying on their citizens sparks of a load of insults directed against that government.

    First time in my life I've felt any sympathy for the French.

    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:55AM EST (#249)
    Check your datas !!! I may be biased being french but produtivity figure here are much higher than any other said so developped countries including the US. And We have lots of trouble but we don't cheat with the "International Work Bureau" (BIT) way of counting unemployed people like the US does.... And we don't want the modern priviledge of working 45 to 60 hours a week with 3 or more jobs and still being under the poverty limits ... :^=) And correct me if I am wrong but this was about the so moral and good america SPYING it's own ally and using unfair economic practices .... not the way of life of french and european peoples. By the way your Gvt don't only spies allies in foreign countries it does spy on its own peoples too, welcome into the country democraty and civil rights !!! We should work together for a better living not pit against each others with blind national folder on our eyes. PS.: France is not the perfect democraty too far from that ... ;)
    Re:FIRST (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @06:12AM EST (#259)
    (User Info)
    democracy is dead
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:52AM EST (#271)
    The most funny thing about France suing UK and US for spying is, that in the continental Europe France is the country with most active industrial espionage.
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:24PM EST (#406)
    Calm down frenchy, it was a troll. Although your productivity figures are NOT higher.. not by a long shot. When I was visiting the UK, one of the funniest things happened to me. I was talking to an old man. Suddenly, he gets up out of his chair, looks outside, then at his watch and says "Looks like its time fer the Americans to come and help us bail out the French against the Germans" or something to that effect. Well that wasn't the exact words.. you had to have been there...it was funny :)
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 12, @12:59AM EST (#421)
    Uh, Duh, France has been spying on the U.S. for years. It's so bad that it made to a 60 minutes (or 20/20?) episode. Check your facts :)
    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:39PM EST (#408)
    I'm afraid you didn't came for long... Geeks are workin' way more...
    Re:FIRST (Score:1)
    by Ramone on Friday February 11, @04:48PM EST (#411)
    (User Info) http://home.earthlink.net/~adorny/
    Strange measure of laziness - if France can maintain itself as a player in global politics while reducing working hours for the citizens, they have my vote for a cool system. Ever played Civilization: Call to Power? Even gaming authors are aware of the fact that only an advanced economy can tranform efficiency into happiness as well as wealth. As other posters have already stated - why are you attacking France? For defending the privacy of its citizens? Stay on subject here.
    LAME slashdot-terminal. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:42AM EST (#144)
    Someone should get rid of this asshole called slashdot-terminal
    Re:LAME slashdot-terminal. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:04AM EST (#157)
    he is one of the worst trolls on slashdot and for some reason he ALWAYS gets modded to 2 immediatly after he posts.
    Re:LAME slashdot-terminal. (Score:1)
    by Uller-RM (borisian@!nospam!.planetquake.com) on Friday February 11, @05:23AM EST (#237)
    (User Info) http://boris.inetarena.com/
    1) Not a troll, he's really that juvenile.

    2) Not moderation, he karma whored before this and now gets an automatic +1 bonus to anything he posts. Other users who have karma high enough to give them the +1 bonus usually use their ability to turn it off (as I have in this posting). IMHO the Karma +1 button is a good thing, it rewards people who actually think before they post, but there should be an option through M2 (M3?) to turn the +1 option off for those who abuse it by posting frivolous or off-topic things at Lv2.
    -Ryan Myers (borisian@!nospam!.planetquake.com)
    Re:LAME slashdot-terminal. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:29AM EST (#264)

    How much Karma do you need before you get the bonus? And when the hell do you get moderator points? I'd appreciate the info.


    Re:LAME slashdot-terminal. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 12, @06:59AM EST (#422)
    After you suck CmdrTaco's dick.
    H E A T H E R G R A H A M (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:44AM EST (#146)
    N A K E D
    A N D
    P E T R I F I E D
    -------------------------------------------------

            "as seen by rob"
                                  -- Hemos the Hamster

    Re:FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:49AM EST (#377)
    You suck
    huh? (Score:2)
    by Foogle (foogle@adelphia.net) on Thursday February 10, @11:15PM EST (#2)
    (User Info) http://snowball.in/~hell
    Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters? Sounds like they're taking it pretty damned well.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
    - They Might Be Giants

    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by CrAzYjOn on Thursday February 10, @11:20PM EST (#7)
    (User Info)
    Think about it.....

    Ever since WWI France has been an incredibly anemic world power (I almost wonder if that term even applies) We had to bail them out of WWI,
    then we liberated them yet again after WWII...

    They have very little political or military might to effect either the US or the UK, so like most of the US they have fallen to the silly litigishnous(sp) that is starting to plague
    the planet...

    sorry....cant help it....

    SILLY FROGS!!!!
    CrAzYjOn -Master Of Digital Chicanery
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:42PM EST (#42)
    "incredibly anemic world power (I almost wonder if that term even applies)" don’t forget, France is one of the ~6-7 nations on earth with nuclear capabilities. suing the US/Britain seems pleasantly benign in comparison to some other choices.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:31AM EST (#137)
    "France is one of the ~6-7 nations on earth with nuclear capabilities"....I think that should be "France is one of the 6-7 DECLARED nations...." as there are a number of countries that have nukes but just haven't publically tested them, Israel, Taiwan, and Japan come to mind.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:51AM EST (#150)
    hmm... i dont know about the others but japan DOES NOT have nuclear weapons of its own.

    http://www.lawscns.org/TokyoForum.htm
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:08AM EST (#161)
    "hmm... i dont know about the others but japan DOES NOT have nuclear weapons of its own." Sorry, but neither the Communist Chinese nor the former USMC commanding general in Japan believe Tokyo's denials.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:13AM EST (#182)
    dont be paranoid to the point of stupidity. there is simply no evidence to support your claim that japan has a nuclear arsenal. it is FORBADE IN THE CONSTITUTION OF JAPAN as of 1990's signing of the "peace constitution" into law. japan is prohibited from depolying its army ouside of its own country and only has defense forces. THEY WERE ONE OF THE FIRST FRIGGIN COUNTRIES TO SIGN THE COMPREHENSIVE NUCLEAR TEST BAN TREATY! how bout next time actually researching facts before you spout off some grandiose nuclear conspiracy theorys!

    read it yourself here :
    http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2137.html
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:52AM EST (#193)
    It is technically well within reach of japan (or for that matter, most nations) to build an A-bomb.

    The hard part, is the vector - ie missile or plane.

    France could blast the US into oblivion - and suffer the same fate. You do not want anything else than economic warfare between nuclear powers.

    -even conventional warfare might cost the US slightly more than it could afford: pounding on thirld world country is easy - aircraft carriers are no use against first world countries...
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:01AM EST (#197)
    Gee dimwit, if it's on the internet it must be true....right?
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:34AM EST (#216)
    what does any of this have to do with being on the internet? there arent a hell of a lot of fabricated constitutions floating around on the web as far as i know.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:21AM EST (#210)
    The Japanese "Self-Defense Force" regularly sails it's warships through the Bashi Channel (between Taiwan and the Philippines) and runs recon flights down the coast of Taiwan. Is Japan still claiming Taiwan and the Philippines as part of it's "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere"? Maybe the Yanks need to pull the "Enola Gay" out of mothballs.....
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Betcour on Friday February 11, @02:20AM EST (#167)
    (User Info)
    But not all of them have carriers, a fleet of nuclear submarines and intercontinental balistic missiles to launch those nukes... not speaking of the space launching capabilities.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:43PM EST (#44)
    What are you smoking? France is a world power by the measure that matters: they have the bomb.
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by nebular on Thursday February 10, @11:44PM EST (#48)
    (User Info) http://www.iamcanadian.ca
    Bail them out of WWI???

    I'm sorry but France was one of the key countries in WWI and fought hard enough to keep Germany at their borders for the entire war (much longer than that of the U.S. stint in it). You give the U.S. far more credit then it deserves for WWI. In fact there were times when the U.S. was supplying the German's and quite a few americans were killed with bullets from kentucky. WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war.

    If you want to blow the U.S's horn then look to WWII otherwise be quiet.

    Don't talk down to any country until you know their history
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:07AM EST (#72)
    lol.. Canada.. sorry.. have to laugh everytime they are mentioned helping in WWI..haha
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:24AM EST (#84)
    Considering Canada was the ONLY country to make gains in the (first/second) battle of the Somme. Canada had a large force in that war, and Canada was in it from the first and Canada almost/may break up because of it. I think the Canadian forces deserve their credit.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:25AM EST (#87)
    Who's Heather Ghram?
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:58AM EST (#117)
    The chick on the end of my dick.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:22AM EST (#134)
    "Considering Canada was the ONLY country to make gains in the (first/second) battle of the Somme." Hmmmm.....what was that, about 2 feet? How many dumb Canadians died in THAT fiasco? Do you consider stupidity a virtue?
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:38AM EST (#289)
    I beleive the canadians were involved in an action where we detonated tons of explosives under the german lines and had a partial break-through in WWI. I wouldn't laugh at the canadians, they usually end up in the thick of it. You seem to forget they landed with the British army at Normandy too, it wasn't just a US invasion. They also sent us some good fighter pilots for the Battle of Britian, only one or two americans joined in for that.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:00AM EST (#320)

    Hey man, it was a Canadian pilot who finally brought down the Red Baron.... and no, he wasn't a beagle.

    As an U.S. citizen I would like to apologize to the Canadians for all the crap Slashdotters from my country throw your way. The Canadian armed forces have played a vital part in most of the major conflicts of the 20th century. They have been a consistently high-quality force, and staunch ally.

    Thanks.

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:11AM EST (#75)
    "WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war." Yes, and they completely screwed the pooch, didn't they? It looks like everytime the Brits get into a jam with the Germans, all they have to do is call up another generation of half-witted Alberta farmboys to get slaughtered.....
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:36AM EST (#98)
    While americans like to go on and on about how wonderful they are and they claim all sorts of crap based on second grade hollywood crap written for inspiration rather than facts, the fact is the reason they entered either world war was because *they were attacked*. Before that they were making a handy profit by selling arms, etc to the war'ing parties and getting their so-called allies into debts they are, in many cases, still paying off.

    WWI - Sinking of the Lousitania
    WW2 - attack on Pearl Harbour (btw Germany had a *lot* of support from the US - Ford even got recognition and a medal from Hitler for his support).
    South Korea & Vietnam - involvement in civil wars due to a concern over the spread of the "reds"
    Gulf War - Large oil and control concerns (btw - Saddam was put into power by the US)

    Most countries have skeletons in their closets that they don't like to look at - but americans seem to take it to a whole new level :/

    - no doubt this thread will end up another US guns and BS thread *sigh*

    - I don't talk politics with yanks anymore 'cause there is no point. The same old claims and denials get flung and if it gets too uncomfortable they claim "the red threat" "defense".
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:42AM EST (#102)
    None of America's European WWI/WWII allies have EVER repaid their debts....in fact, the only countries who HAVE repaid their loans are Finland and Kuwait.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:44AM EST (#268)
    > None of America's European WWI/WWII allies have > EVER repaid their debts....in fact, the only > countries who HAVE repaid their loans are > Finland and Kuwait. There were not debts: Marshall plan and all were just investments... US gave money to European countries so they can buy US Chewing Gum, US jeans US cereals, US Coke, US BigMac and so on.... That's capitalism! A+
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:37AM EST (#287)
    The Marshall Plan was an aid plan to rebuild Europe AFTER WWII. It has nothing to do with the loans incurred by Europe DURING either the First or the Second World Wars.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:44AM EST (#105)
    And I wish it was still that way
    Yes We stayed out of Conflict and Made a profit,
    (Thats what we do, ya know)
    Now when someone jacks with us we kill them
    or use there country for weapons testing.

    However as of late we seem to be for pro-active. I guesse really ever since Vietnam.
    I wish we would be a little more isolated and just kill people when they stepped on our toes,
    instead of whatever we are doing now.
    thanks

    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:1)
    by cpt kangarooski on Friday February 11, @02:40AM EST (#174)
    (User Info)
    I'd say that the Korean War was more of the first step rather than the Vietnamese War.

    -- I support anonymous posting.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:30AM EST (#282)
    Hehe, kill who? The people of some small pacific island perhaps? Take WWII. The landing in Normandy was a pathetic debacle. For 2 or three months the US suffered more losses than most other countries did for the entire war. Had the odds been less than 50/1 against the germans I very much suspect the US troops would've returned home with their ass kicked, if at all. Take Korea, where US troops were beaten by a technologically inferior army. Same thing with Vietnam, where your glorious troops were beaten by a bunch of peasants. Or recent media shows in Kuwait and Serbia. Two months of bombing = two tanks destoyed, bunch of albanians killed. Your military is pathetic, take it!
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:41AM EST (#291)
    Oh so if an evil dictator rolls into a country and starts gassing people again, you wont join in to fight them? Thats big and brave of the US. Only fight for money or yourselves, never for anyone else.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @09:00AM EST (#319)
    (User Info)
    You never fight for yourself,
    you fight for you state...

    And they don't care if you want it or not.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:2)
    by Detritus (jlimpert@acm.org) on Friday February 11, @01:34AM EST (#140)
    (User Info)
    In the case of World War I, the Zimmerman telegram laid the foundation for the United State's entry into the war. The sinking of the Lusitania was more of a final straw. British propaganda was a factor, something that backfired on them in later years when Americans learned how they had been lied to.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:1)
    by glwillia (glwillia@hormel.hotmail.com) on Friday February 11, @03:21AM EST (#185)
    (User Info)
    In the case of World War I, the Zimmerman telegram laid the foundation for the United State's entry into the war. The sinking of the Lusitania was more of a final straw. British propaganda was a factor, something that
                                  backfired on them in later years when Americans learned how they had been lied to.

    Sorry, but that's chronologically inaccurate. The Lusitania was sunk on 7 May 1915, and the Zimmermann telegraph was sent in 1917, the year the US entered the war. The sinking of the Lusitania wasn't so bad as the Germans resuming unrestricted submarine warfare.


    Remove the producer of Spam from my email address to email me
    Ummm... (Score:2)
    by Zico (ZicoKnows@hotmail.com) on Friday February 11, @04:22AM EST (#211)
    (User Info)

    glwillia@hormel.hotmail.com writes:
    Remove the producer of Spam from my email address to email me

    Sorry, but I don't think that glwillia@com is a valid email address. :)

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com


    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:14PM EST (#380)
    About the Lusitania, you might want to look into your history books a bit more thoroughly. That ship was also registered as an auxiliary cruised by the british navy, and it was carrying ammunition (and nobody questions these facts any more). The Germans had announced that they would attack the ship as well. And finally, the US entered WWI a long time after that ship was attacked.
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:1)
    by Ensign Nemo on Friday February 11, @02:45PM EST (#401)
    (User Info)
    Sorry I have to speak on this. You probably think we didn't know about the attack before it happened. The US Government knew about the attack before it happened. Why do you think all of our ships were in dock and all three carriers were out at sea. The government has admitted this (don't have a link but search any engine and you'll find plenty.)

    Roosevelt wanted us in the war but the public was strongly against it. How could he get us into war? Hmmmm.....

    Please don't use the Pearl Harbor attack as an example. Our government wanted in that war and that's why we got in.
    Be careful what you shoot at, some things in here do not react too well to bullets. --T.H.F Red October
    Re:US hardly altruistic (ever!) (Score:1)
    by Holyscapegoat on Friday February 11, @04:10PM EST (#404)
    (User Info)
    I don't talk politics with yanks anymore 'cause there is no point. The same old claims and denials get flung and if it gets too uncomfortable they claim "the red threat" "defense".

    Hey - not all of us Americans are like this. There are many of us who really know what sort of evil things our government has done... but when we try to talk about it or change things, we're accused of being unpatriotic and told to "love it or leave it".

    Americans never hear about the horrible things our government has done in school. We are not taught about things our leaders don't like us to hear. And when some of us do research, look into things like Echelon, our actions in the Iran/Iraq war, etc. we are accused of being crazy and paranoid.

    I know what sort of evil bastards run my country. Not all of us defend them and agree with them - please remember that.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:16PM EST (#405)
    It looks like everytime the Brits get into a jam with the Germans, all they have to do is call up another generation of half-witted Alberta farmboys to get slaughtered.....

    Seems like a winning strategy so... why not?
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by KnightStalker (edu dot oit at hoffmanj) on Friday February 11, @12:43AM EST (#104)
    (User Info) http://internet.oit.edu/~hoffmanj/

    WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war.

    I'm pretty sure Russia was involved as well... helped lead to nasty things like the Bolshevik Revolution.

    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @02:15AM EST (#166)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    > WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war. No it wasn't. WWI marked the USA's entry onto the world stage. American intervention in the war was decisive even before declaration: US gold and credits kept both British and French economies afloat. Without that aid, a compromise peace would have been inevitable, simply because France and Britain could not long continue the war on the own resources. By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by jfunk (jfunk@roadrunner.nf.net) on Friday February 11, @10:18AM EST (#344)
    (User Info) http://exnihilo.dhs.org
    By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.

    Actually, Canada was independant of both England and France in the late 1800's.

    You're probably thinking of Newfoundland, where I live, which didn't join Canada until the late 1940's. We (Newfoundland) fought in the wars under Britain. The rest of Canada fought in the same way that a little brother helps out an older brother (sorry, can't think of a better analogy than that right now).

    Jimmie Funk, doctor of soul.

    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by keyeto (keyeto@mypad.spammers-must-die.com) on Friday February 11, @05:12AM EST (#230)
    (User Info)

    World war one had nothing to do with Russia at all. The revolution had been preceded by popular uprisings in 1905 and 1910. It managed to stay out of the war altogether, and at the time was still a feudal nation. Nobody wanted what Russia had, so Germany never bothered fighting them.

    World war two, on the other hand, was after the revolution, and had successfully bootstrapped its industry, at the cost of millions of lives and the gulags. There was something to be had from Russia then, and it was Germany's decision to fight them, that helped them lose.


    -- "This is the Space Age, and we are Here To Go" - W.S.Burroughs
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by arivanov on Friday February 11, @06:07AM EST (#254)
    (User Info)
    It managed to stay out of the war altogether, and at the time was still a feudal nation. Nobody wanted what Russia had, so Germany never bothered fighting them.

    Go read your histoy books again.

    Russia was in the war from day 1. For your info Germans have used almost equal quantities of people and armament on both fronst. The mere difference is that Russians also fought the Austrians and Turkey.

    I could continue but I will restrain. No point to answer to an ignorant prat.
    @*** Baker's Law *** Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it.

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:53AM EST (#295)
    And so did the British and Empire forces. Remeber Laurence of Arabia and the arab uprising. My Grandmothers brother is buried in Jordan. Also the Australians and british landed at gallipoli, where the Turks were tipped off we were coming, and slaughtered thousands of australians. An utter fuck-up from winston churchhill. thank god he didnt do that again in WW2
    Hmm... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:31PM EST (#389)
    Also the Australians and british landed at gallipoli, And French and New Zealanders where the Turks were tipped off we were coming, Err, slow of the beaches? and slaughtered thousands of australians. Hmm, IIRC The British had the worst casulty rate of all groups and the French had more dead that the Anzac forces. An utter fuck-up from winston churchhill. thank god he didnt do that again in WW2 Yup!
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:50AM EST (#294)
    Where'd you go to school? Russia not in World War 1? Funny. God for fucking ignorant. Read something called a "history book" sometime.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:07AM EST (#340)
    World war one had nothing to do with Russia at all

    Given that the official cause for Germans to enter the war was the Russian mobilization, I'd say that you are dead wrong.

    Also, I think that losing some 10 million killed in battles is "something".

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:47AM EST (#293)
    It was a WORLD WAR you dumbshits. Thats why it was called WORLD WAR I. Fighting occurred in europe, africa, asia, middle east. etc etc. It would have happened in the USA too if the Germans had convinced Mexico to actually attack you. And they did try. Turkey joined in with the jerries, along with austria, italy and bulgaria. The japanese used this oppurtunity to whip the germans out in the pacific with the allies blessing. Then tried to fuck us in WWII.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:21AM EST (#133)

    The French suck. I blame them for both World Wars, and demand that they give us back the money they've stolen or caused us to lose in damages.

    Here's the "Why the French Suck" FAQ, version 0.01.
    Don't forget to snicker occasionally.
    If you're French and you want to sue me, you have no one to blame but yourself.

    Originally, who started it?

    It wasn't Germany. Some Austrian guy gets shot, and Germany joins because they're friendly to the Austrians.
    That's how it all started.

    What happens?
    Germany gets blamed, France gets trashed, and after the war, they hold a confrence about it.

    Where do they hold it?
    In France.

    What happens?
    Germany has to *pay* money to France.

    For what?
    For a war they didn't start.

    Where does the money come from?
    They don't have the money, they just lost a war. The US loans them some money.

    What happens with the money?
    Well, it's complicated.
    But there's a big chain of lending going around the globe, and eventually no one has the money, we all just had a war and our economies are going haywire. But it causes a bank in Switzerland to default, and we have The Great Depression.

    Why?
    Because the French are a bunch of greedy bastards who like to hold "peace confrences", and point fingers.

    Okay, so what happens with the next war?
    Well, the Germans try to repair their economy, and want to elect a strong leader.

    Why did they pick *Hitler*?
    They thought that anything would be better than Communism, they must have picked up that idea from the US. Apparently they were wrong.

    So isn't it their fault for WWII?
    No, because they wouldn't have picked Hitler if they had a strong economy.

    What happens in WWII?
    France gets trashed. Again. Bigtime. It's the only *good* thing about world wars.

    What happens afterwards?
    Another "conference". In France. Where they get more money. It's the only *bad* thing about world wars.

    Why do you hate the French?
    Because of pitiful crap like this. And nuclear power. And "French Nationalism". And their persecution of Voltaire. The more you know, the more you hate them. Not all French people are bad. But the nation could use some help.

    Would you like a good, less biased response?
    Yeah, I'd be interested in a good refutation of my points without the flameage.

    Why would anyone who knows anything real about history hang out on Slashdot?
    Good point.

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:34AM EST (#172)
    It's incredible to read such pityful commentaries on France. I think I'll avoid Slashdot from now on. In fact, I'm French, I know something about history, and specifically a period you guys seem to ignore, wherever you may come from: THE SECOND PART OF THE 20TH CENTURY. You're talking about Voltaire being persecuted... his novels were only published in France, not in Switzerland. Rouseau was banned, but from Geneva and forced to go to France. And Anyway, France cannot be held responsible for as many atrocities as the UK and America. Can someone remind me what happened to the indians at the turn of the century? Can someone remind me what happened to India before its independence? Can someone remind me what IS HAPPENING right now in Northern Ireland.??? Those of you with a minimum of culture and open mindedness will understand this quote from Cyrano de Bergerac: "Je me sers mes mots avec assez de verve, Mais je ne permets pas qu'un autre me les serve" To get back to the subject of France suing USA and England, let me get this straight: the French government is on the side of the open source movement: it's currently passing a bill to impose all public administration the use of open source software. A report is being published about open soucre siftware and especially Linux in Education in France every month; I saw it several times on slashdot. That trial about Echelon partakes of France's inclination toward open source AND FREEDOM IN GENERAL. Finally, I'd like to teach you something, you bunch of ignorants and idiots: NEITHER THE US, NOR ENGLAND ARE OUR CLOSEST ALLIES. Our main ally is Germany, which i also part of the Airbus consortium, and which will certainly take the same stance as France concerning fucking Echelon.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:14AM EST (#183)
    "NEITHER THE US, NOR ENGLAND ARE OUR CLOSEST ALLIES. Our main ally is Germany..." You guys just don't learn, do you? The Krauts kicked your asses twice this century (then got their's kicked in return) and you think that getting in bed with them is going to give you somekind of edge?? Cool, next time we won't be trading chocolate for sex.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:38AM EST (#188)
    If your "main ally" is Germany, then explain the part of my post you chose to ignore: the content.

    If Germany is your friend, I'd much rather be your enemy.

    Please do avoid Slashdot. We're all ignorant here. I think your enlightenment is needed somewhere else.

    And who the fuck was talking about Open Source? I'm talking about HISTORY here.

    Although I'll believe that France is in favor of Open Source when they stop persecuting people for using English in their oh so pure language. Yeah, I can see it now. Open Source in C is fine as long as you redefine "include, define, for, while, do, ..." and all those other evil English keywords.

    ...and fuck the French again for giving us the "SI" International System (and then not having the balls to really use it). I'm not measuring time in kilo-seconds, thank you very much.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:53AM EST (#224)
    [snip] And Anyway, France cannot be held responsible for as many atrocities as the UK and America. [snip] Yep, they pick HARD targets like the Rainbow Warrior! Oh, and don't forget Dreyfus Can someone remind me what happened to the indians at the turn of the century? Can someone remind me what happened to India before its independence? Roughly the same thing as happened in Algeria, Tunisia and several FRENCH colonies. Can someone remind me what IS HAPPENING right now in Northern Ireland.??? Yep, people have started to try and get over 800 years of bullsh*t. For the first time in a long time there is relative peace. Those of you with a minimum of culture and open mindedness will understand this quote from Cyrano de Bergerac: "Je me sers mes mots avec assez de verve, Mais je ne permets pas qu'un autre me les serve" Ah! open mindedness is the same as the ability to speak French! After your excellent English in the rest of the article I am suprised that you had so much difficulty translating that line! To get back to the subject of France suing USA and England, let me get this straight: the French government is on the side of the open source movement: it's currently passing a bill to impose all public administration the use of open source software. A report is being published about open soucre siftware and especially Linux in Education in France every month; I saw it several times on slashdot. That trial about Echelon partakes of France's inclination toward open source AND FREEDOM IN GENERAL. Finally, I'd like to teach you something, you bunch of ignorants and idiots: NEITHER THE US, NOR ENGLAND ARE OUR CLOSEST ALLIES. Our main ally is Germany, which i also part of the Airbus consortium, and which will certainly take the same stance as France concerning fucking Echelon. Erm, small point but the UK is part of the Airbus consortium, so according to the above, France is suing the UK for it's own good. (it's nice of them to care!)
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:43AM EST (#242)
    (User Info)
    >>> the UK is part of the Airbus consortium, so >>> according to the above, France is suing the UK >>> for it's own good. (it's nice of them to care!)

    You're wellcome. The UK's doctrinal resentment of the government promoting any industry (apart from banking, insurance of shipwrecks and other money laundering activities), has already cost them their car industry, now their aeronautics are next in line.
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Dix on Friday February 11, @06:07AM EST (#255)
    (User Info)
    I agree with the Frenchman in general - but the car industry? The British car industry is now in much better state than it was, even if actual car manufacturers are not owned by the British.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:59AM EST (#298)
    yeah but we still got some good makes :) Rolls Royce's, Aston Martins and TVR's :)
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by twinpot on Friday February 11, @10:32AM EST (#349)
    (User Info)
    Rolls Royce is now owned by BMW.
    Aston is owned by Ford.

    But TVR is most definitely still British, even building their own 6, 8 and 12 cyliner (800+ BHP) engines.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:57AM EST (#296)
    Yes northern ireland is Irish killing Irish. Some Irish in want to be British, others dont. Some are catholic, some are protestant. The Irish have to sort this themselves now. Its too far back into history to solve the problem that we invaded ireland. Too many people settled there from England and Scotland for too many years, you simply cant tell them they won't have a British Passport or they will go apeshit.
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @06:14AM EST (#260)
    (User Info)
    not funny
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:25PM EST (#407)
    Why do you hate the French?

    You mean you need a reason to???

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:46AM EST (#243)
    Nice little joke. Going to Paris was, well, just a nice little walk and Vichy ought to ring a bell too.

    BTW, France might better shut up after the high-speed train thing.

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:10AM EST (#74)
    As Tom Lehrer put it, 35 years ago, "France got the bomb, but don't you grieve, 'cause they're on our side, I believe"


    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by GenCuster on Friday February 11, @01:46AM EST (#148)
    (User Info)
    While it is true that France has not acquitted itself very well in recent wars (WWII and Vietnam for example) they have had a prolonged effect in the politics of the UN. They along with Russia are Iraq’s best pals. So don't count them out completely. Mr. Annan has sided with them more than the US.

    Nate Custer

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:01AM EST (#156)
    They haven't acquitted themselves well in ANY war in the past 200 years.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:09AM EST (#163)
    Napolean?
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:16AM EST (#205)
    Two words: (1)Moscow (2)Waterloo
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:15AM EST (#184)
    WWI, WWII, rant rant blah blah, saved, liberated, blah rant.

    I have a dream: One day, when an European country is mentioned in a Slashdot article, Americans will not burst into childish rant about the world wars, but they will actually be able to concentrate on the article.

    Not bloody likely.. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:54AM EST (#247)

    ... is it now?


    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by lunatik17 on Friday February 11, @11:23AM EST (#367)
    (User Info) http://www.radiks.net/~lunatik/
    That would involve the trolls being completely removed from this forum, and I don't think that is very likely. It's not really Americans who are doing this per se, but all the stupid ACs who were previously entertaining themselves by posting porn in the form of ASCII art. What would you expect?

    It's really gives us a Amercians a bad reputation here, and I hate it just as much as you.

    Here's my DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:42PM EST (#415)
    American people don't like French people... why that ? Are you afraid of something ? Don't you have something better to do than saying stupidity ? Move your ass from your chair drop your bigmac and go outside, travel to other countries just tou open your mind a bit. Writing with upper/lower case mix just show how lame you are. I'm sure you have your PC configuration on your web page.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:25PM EST (#19)
    It's part of the government mentality. Spy as much on your friends as your enemies. I'm sure France took it as a matter of course that we'd gather intelligence about them. I am rather curious as to which court they are going to try this case in... And how they can prove wrong doing on the part of the government(s).
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:32AM EST (#215)
    Well they can sue the UK Government in the European Court of Justice for failing to uphold EU Privacy Directives
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by Millennium (millennium@spam.spam.eggs.bacon.andspam.mac.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:25PM EST (#20)
    (User Info)
    They may be France's closest allies, but they're also pretty damn powerful enemies. If France tried to go to war with the US and the UK, they'd find the whole might of NATO turned against them. That would be outright suicide.

    No, France can't take that route, and they know it. Frankly, the Airbus thing is probably just an excuse; they know they won't get their money back. What they're trying to do is set a precedent. Open the way for other nations to sue. And hopefully destroy Echelon in the process; knowing the US they'll destroy Echelon rather than hold onto it and destroy their reputation (sad to say, the only thing the U.S. government values more than keeping its power is keeping what little image it has left). This is a ploy to make the US and UK lose face, and I'm all for it if it'll hurt Echelon even a little bit.

    We're just Slashdotters. When all's said and done, there's really nothing we can do about Echelon; we simply don't have the kind of power it takes. France has tons more than we do, but even it can't do much by itself. But if it takes a stand, other nations will too, and the combined power of several large nations can do something about Echelon.

    I could go on for several more paragraphs extolling the guts France is showing by taking this move, but knowing my luck I'd only start a flamewar. So I'll just shut up now.
    -Millennium
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by Detritus (jlimpert@acm.org) on Friday February 11, @01:01AM EST (#119)
    (User Info)
    I hope the State Department sends the French President a case of California Champagne and an Echelon tape of his mistress's hottest phone calls.

    There is a simple solution to Echelon. Stop sending voice and data over unprotected radio, microwave and satellite links. Even if Echelon was shut down, which I think would be a terrible idea, there are plenty of other countries with SIGINT capabilities.

    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:53AM EST (#335)

    I hope the State Department sends the French President a case of California Champagne and an Echelon tape of his mistress's hottest phone calls.

  • California Champagne: Something to make bubbly sangria with.
  • Echelon tape of mistress's phone call: Something to leak to the press to make his political rivals jelous.

    Do you really think that would have any impact in France...let alone most of Europe?


  • Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by technos (technos@crosswinds.net) on Friday February 11, @01:45AM EST (#147)
    (User Info) http://www.crosswinds.net/~technos/
    Overheard in a hallway at Pershing Field:

    Suit #1: I wonder if France has any of those faulty Minuteman II's left. You know the ones we sold them in the 80's? I wonder what would happen if someone inadvertantly detonated a few in their tubes.

    Suit #2: Naw, too messy, what with the fallout and all. Remember the stuff we got from Mitterand's Christmas party? The infrared picture of Maggie Thatcher and old Frankie on the Presidential desk?

    Suit #1: Too old! A smear campaign against former heads of state is pointless, and the Brits would get pissy too. Got any embarrasing details on this French lawyer?

    Suit #2: Let's see.. He had an extramarital affair with his daughter's roommate, we've got their phone sex tapes. He's got a 1000 franc a week coke habit too!

    Suit #1: Think we could con the CIA into putting some added value into his dope, like they did for us with that Mexican fellow?

    Suit #2: Not since the FBI busted their Columbian agent, Escobar. Goddamn Justice has been stepping all over their toes!

    Suit #1: Oh well. Time to get back to watching that surveillance camera in Natalie Portman's bathroom. See if you can get some wet-work Rangers on this one. Hit him on the limey side of the channel, eh? Mabye we can use that IRA bit one more time...


    My copy of the software the MPAA loves to hate!
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Spruitje on Friday February 11, @05:54AM EST (#248)
    (User Info)
    They may be France's closest allies, but they're also pretty damn powerful enemies. If France tried to go to war with the US and the UK, they'd find the whole might of NATO turned against them. That would be outright suicide. First of all. This won't happen. Why? France is a member of NATO and of the EC. Second, why should they. They formed a joint army with Germany and the Benelux country's. And they have much influence in Europe. The only problem we in the EC have is Great-Britain. They are Fuc&^* things up all of the time.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:40PM EST (#38)
    My Dearest Foogle,

    I'd just like you to know that I hate your fucking .sig, and as such I hate you too.

    Thank you for your concern,
    You dumb turd you,

    A CONCERNED FAN


    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Foogle (foogle@adelphia.net) on Thursday February 10, @11:53PM EST (#66)
    (User Info) http://snowball.in/~hell
    Um, you're welcome.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
    - They Might Be Giants

    Maybe because they are not spied by the evil.. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:50PM EST (#58)
    countries.
    Oh, isn't it what the communist governments do to others? Oops, maybe there are no much different b/w any kind of government.

    France must be brain washed somehow to believe that being spied on by the US of A is not that bad.
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by friedo (http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/) on Friday February 11, @12:41AM EST (#101)
    (User Info) http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/
    Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters?

    You probably are missing something. This day and age, countries don't just go to war with each other (well, not Western countries, anyway.) Unlike the political situations of a century ago, every army is not stocked with a bunch of 16 year olds with muskets. France going to war with the UK or US would be literally suicide. (Not to mention how NATO would react.) No, nowadays political matters in civilized countries can (and should IMO) be settled diplomatically. If you found out your best friend was spying on you and caused you to lose money, would you kick his ass, or sue him for the money? I'd do the latter, because a) I can kick the ass of very few people (I'm like France) and b) kicking his ass doesn't get my money back.

    On a side note, does anyone know how lawsuits between governments are handled? I've never heard of one before. Is this a UN matter?

    My DeCSS mirror is here. Where's yours?

    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Foogle (foogle@adelphia.net) on Friday February 11, @12:47AM EST (#108)
    (User Info) http://snowball.in/~hell
    I'm not talking about war -- it would be ridiculous for any country to wage war against US & UK. But suing them? There are levels in between war and lawsuit that seem a lot more appropriate.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
    - They Might Be Giants

    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by MillMan (millmanatthekeyboarddotcom) on Friday February 11, @12:49AM EST (#111)
    (User Info)
    There is a World court, but since international news coverage is very weak in the US, you never hear about it. They've ruled against the US before (i'm tired, don't have any proof or issues on me) but they really have no power over the US, which is the main point. The same thing goes for the UN. Nobody f*cks with the US, for obvious reasons.

    This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by friedo (http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/) on Friday February 11, @01:11AM EST (#125)
    (User Info) http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/
    This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.

    I agree. I think the nature of Echelon must be made public knowledge, or there must at least be public knowledge of its existence. I don't particularly care about the outcome of the lawsuit; hopefully it will generate enough media attention to get the public aware of what's going on. I'm interested in learning more about the World Court. is it a UN body? An internation treaty somewhere?

    My DeCSS mirror is here. Where's yours?

    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by friedo (http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/) on Friday February 11, @01:23AM EST (#135)
    (User Info) http://friedo.rh.rit.edu/
    OK, I'm replying to my own post. For those interested in how the World Court works, I did a little poking around on Yahoo. It's really called the International Court of Justice, and is the principal judicial "organ" of the UN. This pretty much sums it up:

    The Court has a dual role: to settle in accordance with international law the legal disputes submitted to it by States, and to give advisory opinions on legal questions referred to it by duly authorized international organs and agencies.

    Seems to me that it's pretty similar to the US Supreme Court in a lot of respects. Since the ICJ is really a part of the UN, it also seems to me that they wouldn't exercise too much control over the US as far as enforcement goes; if the US is ruled against it would mean the only way they would have to pay is willingly, as it would be nearly impossible to start sanctions or military actions against the US.

    For a basic summery, see their Court at a Glance document.

    My DeCSS mirror is here. Where's yours?

    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by sjames (sjames@nospam.gdex.net) on Friday February 11, @01:34PM EST (#390)
    (User Info) http://www.members.gdex.net/sjames

    This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.

    That's quite likely. There is also the possability of going through the EU to get at the U.K. At any rate, everyone spies on everyone else. The 'arrangement' seems to be that as long as the intelligence is not used commercially, everyone (officially/diplomatically) looks the other way. France got caught cheating in the '80s and just wants to make it clear that they're not the only ones cheating (I don't blame them there).

    All told, I'm glad this happened as well. There seems to be a bit of a truth shortage these days.


    Re:Sueing Countries (Score:1)
    by GenCuster on Friday February 11, @01:41AM EST (#143)
    (User Info)
    I am far from a legal expert however I believe the precedent is for it to be tried in French courts, under French law. While there is a International Court I do not believe this is the type of case they handle. This idea of precedent is how we try foreign nationals whose country deny them diplomatic immunity.

    Nate Custer

    Lawyer: nope (Score:2)
    by hawk (hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu) on Friday February 11, @10:14AM EST (#342)
    (User Info) http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk
    I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need legal
    advice, see an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.

    French courts simply lack jurisdiction over the U.S. The U.S. has
    absolutely no obligation to appear (and I'd call my congress-critters
    and demand another impeachment if there were a U.S. appearance), and
    would have no ability to enforce any ruling it entered.

    The only way this *possibly* gets heard in a courtroom (at least
    with the U.S. as a party) would be in the U.S. Supreme Court. Even
    then, were a judgment entered, it could not be paid without an
    act of Congress authorizing payment of funds from the Treasury.

    Also, it's been a *long* time since the Court heard a case of
    original jurisdiction (probably since diplomatic immunity was
    established). I'm not sure the current rules of court even
    provide for the situation (I'd have to look them up, and I'm just
    not that interested).

    hawk, esq.
    These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer.
    Re:Lawyer: nope (Score:1)
    by jareds (jareds@mit.edu) on Saturday February 12, @01:16PM EST (#423)
    (User Info)

    Also, it's been a *long* time since the Court heard a case of original jurisdiction

    Haven't there been cases somewhat recently of states suing each other over water rights or something?


    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by divec on Friday February 11, @06:56AM EST (#274)
    (User Info)
    >I can kick the ass of very few people ... like France

    Err ... France certainly has a more powerful army than the UK. It probably can't kick the asses of the USA, Russia or China but anybody else is fair game.

    But you're right about ass-kicking not getting money back. The UK, at least, can be sued through the European Court and would probably have to pay up if found guilty. Although there is a world court, the chances of getting the US to cough up are negligable.
    Re:huh? (Score:2)
    by SEE (see@mailops.com) on Friday February 11, @01:03AM EST (#121)
    (User Info) http://www.easypages.net/hosting/personal/see/index.html
    It's very simple -- France has a decades-long record on spying on the U.S. and U.K., too. You should see the list of warnings about French espionage that U.S. multinationals give to their executives. France has to moderate its reaction to avoid an immoderate response if and when they get caught red-handed.

    Steven E. Ehrbar
    see@mailops.com
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:53AM EST (#180)
    I think what you missed was the article a week or two ago mentioning the French, having built some very heavy duty electronic eavsdropping capabilities aimed at the UK. This isn't taking it well, it's simply arrogance and an attempt to cloud the issue.

    After all, the quiz of the day is: 'What country's intellegance agency was caught bugging First Class seats in Air France planes some years ago?' (Hint, the answer is in the name of the Airline.)
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Zemran on Friday February 11, @04:46AM EST (#220)
    (User Info)
    Calling France and the UK allies always makes me laugh. I realise that theoretically we are allies but the English have always hated the French and vice versa. In the last century we ended up on the same side in most conflicts (but don't forget whose missiles the Argentinians were firing at us) and so technically we are allies but old scores run deep.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:25AM EST (#240)
    I know the French still hate you for burning Joan of Arc. But they got even, and how! William the Conqueror kicked your English butts, muhahahaha
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:12AM EST (#258)
    Hmm, which came first Joan of Arc or William the Conqueror? You obviously don't know!
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Zemran on Friday February 11, @06:33AM EST (#265)
    (User Info)
    I think it really pisses them off a treat that we keep sinking their navy, even in WW2 when we were supposed to be their allies 8-)
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Dracula on Friday February 11, @08:12AM EST (#303)
    (User Info) www.teleca.com
    Allies?
    in WW2?
    Don't make me laugh.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:31AM EST (#306)
    Heh heh, you're right. My mistake. I guess the French never recovered from the Joan of Arc incident.
    But I know for a fact the English still hold a grudge against the Romans, the Danes, the Vikings and the Dutch for kicking English butts in distant centuries.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:05AM EST (#300)
    And then 500 or so english archers killed thousands of frogs at agincourt, mwah har har. Though most were killed by being crushed by their own side in the panic. mwah har har
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by Mr_Ceebs on Friday February 11, @10:08AM EST (#341)
    (User Info)
    Hey it's not that we hold a grudge, But they did shoot our king in the eye.
    French-British History (Score:3, Interesting)
    by hawk (hawk@hawkins.cba.uni.edu) on Friday February 11, @10:24AM EST (#347)
    (User Info) http://eyry.econ.iastate.edu/hawk
    A couple of years ago at a conference, I was relating my summary
    of anglo-french history to a group that included some Europeans.

    Roughly, in the second half of the eleventh centrury, a french
    duke got irritated and took the english crown for himself. He
    still held about a third of France. Over time, this got whittled
    down, and the british sent an army across to reclaim/expand their
    french holdings. Having done so again, they got neglectful, and the
    french holdings again dissipated. Periodically, the brits would send
    an army that would trounce a french army three to four times its own
    size.

    After about 500 years of this, the french finally noticed
    that they had castles to hide in. When the brits came, they simply
    didn't go out and play, and eventually went home due to long supply
    lines. The brits never figured out that since they held the
    entire area except for the castles, that they could build their
    own castles.

    Then came the 20th century, and they discovered that they hated the
    germans more than one another.

    At this point I was interrupted with a sharp, "No we didn't."

    :)

    seems it was merely expedient to fight together for a few years
    These opinions will not be those of UNI until it pays my retainer.
    Re:French-British History (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:08PM EST (#417)
    Now just consider, after centuries of animosity and warfare between the British and the French, France gets conquered, Britain holds out, and in the end the British are part of the force that liberates them.

    Imagine how the British see that, imagine how the French take it, this is the basis for truly undying hatred.
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by megapatzer on Friday February 11, @08:08AM EST (#302)
    (User Info)
    There are a couple of things I don't understand here. Firstly I believe Airbus Industries are 20% owned by British Aerospace, where as as far as I know there is no British interest in Boeing, so I don't understand the motives of commercial espionage by the British against Airbus.
    The other thing is that it amused me to read the following article on Risks Digest last week. I guess everyone spies on everyone else!
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:15AM EST (#366)
    BA participated reluctantly in Airbus industry, and has fskced it up since they joined.

    British Airways has never bought a single Airbus.

    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @11:24AM EST (#368)
    (User Info)
    Oh they did recently when Blair thought that BAe could make a deal with the Germans, bundle Airbus in a company dominated by an Anglo-German conglomerate and sell it to the Americans with a good profit.

    Things has not turned up this way however. BAe Systems is a minor and reluctant participant in Airbus, and while the French and Germans are discussing whether the A3XX should be assembled in Hamburg or Toulouse, all they manage to do is suggesting that it be assembled in the US... Thanks to our British friends for their inimitable sense of humor however.
    Re:huh? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:13PM EST (#418)
    British Airways has never bought a single Airbus.

    The relevance of which is what exactly? British Airways is a a publically quoted company, and I gatehr a reasonably successful one. Why would it be interested in silly political games? If the Airbus seems like a good buy as part of their long term strategy then dountless they'll switch, and if not then not.
    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by laurentc (nojunkmail.laurentc@vistatec.ie) on Monday February 14, @03:51AM EST (#432)
    (User Info)
    Actually the british government prefer buying it's gear in the US see the harrier fiasco...
    My drinking team has a Rugby problem
    Welcome to the Real World (Score:2)
    by karb (karbatfordashpresidentdotcom) on Friday February 11, @09:54AM EST (#337)
    (User Info)
    Am I missing something here? Doesn't it seem strange that, after finding out two of their closest allies have been spying on them, France decides to sue over civil matters? Sounds like they're taking it pretty damned well.

    Every nation spies on its allies. While this doesn't scale well to personal relations, you need to know what they're doing so you know that they *are* still your allies. This Is Not something that the U.S. just invented ten years ago.

    C is like Jedi C++ : There is no try

    Re:huh? (Score:1)
    by TomV on Friday February 11, @11:30AM EST (#369)
    (User Info)
    Sounds like they're taking it pretty damned well.

    Particularly insofar as when Greenpeace were protesting about nuclear tests in the south Pacific they merrily blew up the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour.

    TomV

    SO what are they going to do? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:38AM EST (#374)
    I'm suprised the French have the balls to even sue. We should get the Germans to smack them on the heads and make them surrender.
    Re:SO what are they going to do? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:18PM EST (#419)
    Well, I pretty much assumed that the Germans had told them to do this to begin with. Do you mean they've started taking actions without checking them with Germany first? Wait until the Germans find out...
    FIRST (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:16PM EST (#3)
    FIRST DUMB POST
    Re:FIRST (Score:1)
    by Insanik (insanik@notmail.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:17PM EST (#5)
    (User Info)
    you were too late buddy
    For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Insanik (insanik@notmail.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:17PM EST (#4)
    (User Info)
    I am no lawyer, but I am wondering how France will sue the US. What organization is going to preside over the trials? WTO? UN?

    And how can they enforce the verdict? From my reading enforcement of international law has always been a problem.

    Thanks in advance, Nick
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:2)
    by nstrug (nstrug@bu.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:26PM EST (#23)
    (User Info) http://crsa.bu.edu/~nstrug/
    It's easy to sue a foreign government on your home turf - provided you're willing to wave principles of international law like sovereign immunity. If the foreign government doesn't cough up the damages you seize their assets in your country. The US did it with Iran after the shah was deposed. Apart from the embassy and consulates though (which are inviolate) the US doesn't actually have any assets in France. However, under EU law a court order in one member state is easily enforceable in another so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany... Might not be possible under the NATO Status of Forces agreement however.

    Nick
    --- One at a time or all together, it makes no odds to me.

    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Pig Hogger (lugalle@-DOPESPAM-yahoo.com) on Friday February 11, @12:35AM EST (#95)
    (User Info)
    so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany...
    Why would they bother? Their Rafale and Mirage aircrafts are much better than those flying jitneys...
    --
    "It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky"
    My father, on the Strategic Defense Initiative.
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:45AM EST (#107)
    Actually, the US does have holdings in France. The US WWII cemetery (the one seen at the beginning and end of Saving Private Ryan) was given to the US by France.

    I wonder if they could take it back?

    I'm just amazed to see the French doing something other than surrendering for a change! (See WWI and WWII.)
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Betcour on Friday February 11, @03:23AM EST (#186)
    (User Info)
    Actually France never surrendered during WWI, they won (read back your history book).
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by lunatik17 on Friday February 11, @11:36AM EST (#372)
    (User Info) http://www.radiks.net/~lunatik/
    Actually, the US does have holdings in France. The US WWII cemetery (the one seen at the beginning and end of Saving Private Ryan) was given to the US by France.

    Don't forget the Statue of Liberty.

    Here's my DeCSS mirror. Where's yours?

    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Admiral Burrito on Friday February 11, @12:53AM EST (#114)
    (User Info)

    so maybe France will just seize all those tanks and F16s that the US has on the bases it rents from Germany...

    Do you have any idea of what's involved in seizing the equipment of another nation's military base?!?

    Hint: It usually involves blowing things up.


    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:18AM EST (#129)
    The French are great at blowing....
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Helge Hafting on Friday February 11, @05:50AM EST (#245)
    (User Info)
    <I>If the foreign government doesn't cough up the damages you seize their assets in your country. The US did it with Iran after the shah was deposed. Apart from the embassy and consulates though (which are inviolate) the US doesn't actually have any assets in France.</I>

    You're forgetting private property. I don't think it'll happen, but they could theoretically seize property owned by american companies.

    "Espionage ruined an Airbus contract? Lets confiscate some planes, office buildings and factories then..."

    Unlikely in the extreme, but they certainly have ways if they want to. A lawyer might complain that this property isn't owned by the american government which did the spying. This is easily countered by the american people being responsible for electing their own government (it's a democracy after all) and american corporations are largely owned by american people.

    This sort of argument wouldn't surprise me if it came from a socialist country like France. The reason they (probably) won't is the obvious trade war (or worse) that would follow.
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by Submarine (monniaux@millet.ens.fr) on Friday February 11, @09:31AM EST (#327)
    (User Info) http://www.di.ens.fr/~monniaux
    "This sort of argument wouldn't surprise me if it came from a socialist country like France."

    Last time I checked, France's name was "the French Republic", not "the People's Republic of France". Also, last time I checked, prices there were set by the market.

    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:1)
    by belroth (belroth@NoSpamPlease.torcom#co#uk) on Friday February 11, @10:47AM EST (#356)
    (User Info)
    I'd suggest they confiscate (through the courts) all the expensive computers, receivers, dishes etc at Menwith Hills, which would definitely cramp the NSA spying on them for a fair time.

    Don't forget guys, ALL encryption was illegal in France, and last year(?) they changed the law to make it LEGAL - the French aren't totally clueless (just mostly like most Govs.)


    ----
    I hereby inform you that the police have NOT required me to decode any encrypted/hidden data on my PCs.

    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:42PM EST (#43)
    Nick,

    You were GREAT in Affliction - YOU should have got that academy. Don't listen to what everyone says! Hang in there, you crusty old shit!

    C'mere, you dumb turd, you. Gimmie some lovin' and some booze.
    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:42AM EST (#313)
    IANAL.

    The UK is in the European Union, and that has a court which is higher than any British court, so that would be binding on Britain.

    However Britain also produces parts for the Airbus, so I find specifically giving Boeing info unlikely, though passing on a mass of uninspected data to the USA which happened to contain that, maybe.


    Re:For a lawyer... (Score:2)
    by mindstrm (moctodemohtamrtsdnim) on Friday February 11, @09:44AM EST (#330)
    (User Info)
    They'll do it the same way the U.S. sues other countries and foreigners!

    How can they enforce the verdict? Well.. it's not too hard actually..

    Can they *make* the US pay, under threat of prison? Of course not...
    Can they change national policy and not deal with the US until the US pays up? Sure they can.

    Did iCrave-TV obey a US court order, even though they are in Canada? Sure they did.. why? Not because the US troops could march in and get them, but because it seems liket he *proper* thing to do: defend themselves.

    How about (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:34PM EST (#383)
    How about a total BAN on US products in France and Europe. I'm sure that's an appropriate compensation for the damage. How about the explusion of the UK from the EU.
    France whining about spies? (Score:1)
    by linuxbert on Thursday February 10, @11:20PM EST (#6)
    (User Info)
    correct me if im wrong but wasent it french spies who sunk the rainbow warrior? and also dont the french have giant antenas pointed at Britan to listen in on gsm cell phone conversations?

    seems to me whats good for the goose is good for the gander...
    Re:France whining about spies? (Score:1)
    by KB9TKH on Thursday February 10, @11:27PM EST (#24)
    (User Info)
    "Giant antennas" would be quite inefficient at monitoring
    GSM phones, i.e. UHF->microwave devices.

    You would want tiny antennas (at least in terms of
    the active elements) and very close range to the target
    of interception.

    Wave theory. Very important stuff. Most people have NO
    idea how much "stuff" is on the air everywhere.
    Re:France whining about spies? (Score:2)
    by Alex Belits (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) on Friday February 11, @12:55AM EST (#116)
    (User Info) http://phobos.illtel.denver.co.us

    You would want tiny antennas (at least in terms of the active elements) and very close range to the target of interception.

    Or long range, still tiny active element and huge, perfectly paraboloid reflector. Telescopes have reflectors up to few meters in diameter, and they have no problems receiving "signals" at the wavelength of hundreds nanometers.


    Who enforces it. (Score:1)
    by Andrew Dvorak (AndyDvorak at Hotmail dot com) on Thursday February 10, @11:44PM EST (#47)
    (User Info)

    Well, let's say the US and France are part of the UN, which i believe they are. Obviously both countries would very much like to be part of the UN, as they are, already. If the UN were to rule a verdict, the consequence for not honoring the verdict could likely be removal of membership from the UN. But this would make the UN suffer. So, we must be sure both parties actually care about being involved with the UN, which i should hope they are.

    In my opinion, the UN is a very powerful organization and i can see no reason the US or France should not wish to say a member of it. The benefits outweigh the risks..

    I hope you see my point.


    -- Andrew Dvorak
    But who would miss France? (Score:1)
    by Zico (ZicoKnows@hotmail.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:53PM EST (#65)
    (User Info)

    Seriously, if France were gone from the UN, who would care? Their purpose there these days seems to be barely anything more than to oppose the U.S. It's not as if I'm even saying that all of the U.S.'s policies were right -- in fact, I disagree with a good deal of its international policies. France, though, seems to put no more deliberation into their UN votes than to see which way the U.S. is leaning and then take the opposite tack.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com


    Re:But who would miss France? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:11AM EST (#126)
    The French are much like those little hairless Mexican dogs.....noisy, always under your feet and no value in a fight.
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:10AM EST (#73)
    France and the US are both one of the 7(?) permenant members I believe.. so that makes it a little tough...
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:1)
    by mikael_j (mikael.jacobsonMEEPT@MEEPThome.se) on Friday February 11, @06:07AM EST (#256)
    (User Info)
    Actually they are both one of the 5 permanent members of the security council.

    Mikael Jacobson
    Famous last words - "Well, let's turn it on and see what happens."
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:1)
    by FyreFiend (FyreFiend@com.mac) on Friday February 11, @12:38AM EST (#100)
    (User Info) http://www.op.net/~dwarf
    You make a good point but the UN would never kick out the US. If they tried I'm sure the US Gov would say something along the lines of, "You like your pretty building? What to keep it?"

    -Fyre
    "Last night I had to put the dog out.....I still don't know where the cat got the matches!!!"
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:05AM EST (#276)
    > You make a good point but the UN would never kick out the US. If they tried I'm sure the US Gov would say something along the lines of,
    > "You like your pretty building? What to keep it?"

    Actually the UN has two set of buildings.
    The other is in Geneva (Switzerland) so this is simply not relevant

    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:25AM EST (#281)
    An strangely enough, the Swiss are not in the UN
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:32AM EST (#308)
    Not to mention the fact that all the usefull organisations are in geneva: The political organ in NY is more or less only there for the show...
    Re:Who enforces it. (Score:1)
    by TWR on Friday February 11, @01:49AM EST (#149)
    (User Info)
    Obviously both countries would very much like to be part of the UN, as they are, already.

    Are you serious? By and large, America isn't exactly thrilled about the UN. The head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Jesse Helms) just gave a speech at the UN, where he said that if the UN tries to push around the US, the US will QUIT the UN. How that would actually work, I'm not sure (with UN headquarters in the US and all). The US currently owes the UN something like $1Billion in back dues. The Republicans in Congress won't pay for "family planning" programs sponsored by the UN, because many of the support abortion.

    Jesse is a putz, but he's got a point. I'm not so sure that I want other countries to have any say over how I live my life and how my government functions. (I wish the US would keep its nose out of other countries, too...)

    -jon

    US leaving UN (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:56AM EST (#154)
    Is very unlikely. Jess Helms is the laughing stock of Washington. He speaks for the right-wing paranoid christians no one cares about. The US has the clout to generally bully the UN around, we get away with not paying them over a billion dollars, we refuse to sign a lot of their treaties, we generally get away with a LOT of dumb shit, all we have to do is make our army wear goofy UN outfits.
    The US leaving the UN would make no sense because then the UN could be used to unite the world in opposition to the US. It makes much more sense for the US to stay in the UN.
    Re:France whining about spies? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:21AM EST (#132)
    For the Rainbow Warrior, yes, it was a French spy mess : an operation carried against every SS operational rules and against the advices of the very guys who had to carry that stupid stuff.

    For the giant antenas over GSM, nop ! France, as any "serious" country, has a radio monitoring system but it listens the VHF band, not the .9 and 1.8GHz GSM bands, which anyway don't propagate over the horizon. A GSM snooper must be local or space-borne, a US exclusivity.


    I want $100 billion, or else! (Score:1)
    by Rommel on Thursday February 10, @11:21PM EST (#8)
    (User Info)
    You know, it's just so hard to be pissed about something if the French are pissed about it, too.

    In all seriousness, though, I wonder how they came up with that dollar amount and how they found "evidence" to support their claims? Mind you, since the article is typical headline fodder, we don't actually know anything.
    You rude English speakers! (Score:1)
    by mr on Thursday February 10, @11:21PM EST (#9)
    (User Info)
    If you come and snoop our packets again, we will taunt you some more!
    If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
    French (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:21PM EST (#10)
    See! the French aren't that bad.
    Hypocrites (Score:1, Interesting)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:22PM EST (#11)
    The French DGSE are famous for their industrial espionage. For example,

    France and Japan were mentioned above as the leading infiltrators against American firms. France's spy agency, the Direction Generale de la Securite Exterieure (DGSE) , aims its effort at the same U.S. technology that is of interest to the SVR: computers, aerospace, and production tools and processes. The DGSE's specialty is infiltrating spies into U.S. and foreign offices of high-tech U.S. multi-national corporations. In 1993, a French government document listing as worthwhile targets two dozen U.S. companies - including Boeing, IBM, and Texas Instruments, was leaked to newspapers. The French are aggressive. Former CIA director Richard Helms says, "They [the French] have admitted to me in private that they go through the briefcases of visiting businessmen."

    Russia and Japan are not exactly our strongest diplomatic allies. However, France and the United States are military and political allies. Should allies be spying on each other? According to Pierre Marion, director of French intelligence from 1981 to 1982, "Even during the Cold War, getting intelligence in economic, technological, and industrial matters from a country with which you are allied . . . is not incompatible with the fact of being allied." In the post-Cold War era, Marion says, "The competition in terms of technology and commerce and industry is stronger than it was during the Cold War. There should be more emphasis put on that, and on industrial espionage." The French government admits that it directly passes stolen secrets to French-owned corporations. Intelligence on the private sector for the private sector; France, a Western nation with a democratic system of government, has a view of economic intelligence that is the polar opposite of the American stance.

    French spying and Russian SST disaster (Score:1)
    by rambone on Thursday February 10, @11:41PM EST (#40)
    (User Info)
    Don't forget the story of the French fighter pilot doing unsolicited flybys on the Russian SST at an airshow years ago.

    The fighter, taking pictures of the plane, came out of the clouds as if from nowhere and forced the Russian pilot to dive in order to avoid collision. A fatal stall resulted. The Russian pilot pointed the plane downward, putting it in a steep dive in order to draw air into the engines, but was unable to succesfully restart the engines. The Russian SST crashed into a group of homes.

    Re:Hypocrites (Score:3, Insightful)
    by Detritus (jlimpert@acm.org) on Friday February 11, @12:13AM EST (#77)
    (User Info)
    The French have reached new levels of hypocrisy. US Security Bulletins have been warning Americans about widespread and massive espionage by the DGSE for many, many years. This is like the Menendez brothers asking for a lenient sentence because they are orphans.
    Re:Hypocrites (no!) (Score:1)
    by prizog (turnerd at reed.edu) on Friday February 11, @01:20AM EST (#130)
    (User Info) http://www.reed.edu/~turnerd
    no! it's chutzpah, not hypocracy! you've abused the classic chutzpah example (the orphan example) as an example of hypocracy. the menendez brothers are irrelevant to the issue - you want "it's the pot calling the kettle black," or "the mpaa suing the government for passing anti-free-speech laws."


    -Dave Turner, nanomachine colony
    Today is bash the French Day! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:43AM EST (#145)
    Ho, hum.

    At the end of last year, it was "Bash Australia because they are implementing internet censorship".

    Then it was "Bash China because they are un-democratic".

    Earlier today, it was "Bash the UK because they are passing a law that will get you thrown in prison if you don't hand over your crypto-keys".

    And Americans will of course jump up and down and scream if they are critisized at all.

    Hello! Excuse me, but do you see a pattern here? Are you starting to understand why the steroetype of Americans is inbred retarded red-neck idiots?

    In world politics, you need every friend that you can get.

    Please do your bit to support Americas diplomatic efforts by not making deliberatly insulting and/or inflamatory remarks about other nation states.

    By all means exercise your right to free speach, but do so in a responsible manner.


    Re:Today is bash the French Day! (Score:2)
    by technos (technos@crosswinds.net) on Friday February 11, @02:09AM EST (#162)
    (User Info) http://www.crosswinds.net/~technos/
    Hey now! I'm from the US and we are all retarded red-neck idiots! But that doesn't mean you need to call us that to our faces!! You, you, you turd-vacuum! You, you unwashed haggis eating frog lover!

    Can't we all just get along?

    Just because there is a distasteful troll product of the US public school system in here doesn't mean you need to insult me by proxy as well.

    My copy of the software the MPAA loves to hate!
    Re:Today is bash the French Day! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:44AM EST (#190)
    I thought we had better stereotypes than that.

    In other countries, inbreeding is a sign of royalty...

    And isn't "retarded red-neck idiots" a little redundant?

    Oh. And fuck other nation states. And this one too. You know what that is? It's free speech. And if your governement tries to censor it, give them a good "fuck you" too, and see if they get it.

    All of us Americans are happy to bash America for their education system, cryptography restrictions, and JonKatz. Or maybe you haven't been reading Slashdot as much as you say.

    I'm not even going to go into the stereotypes surrounding that "Anonymous Coward". But be warned: I think he's American. He's EveryTroll. :)
    Re:Today is bash the French Day! (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @09:04AM EST (#321)
    (User Info)
    What is interesting is that all interesting american post get score 2 or 3

    and that french interesting one get score 0...

    not funny... this is hypocrisy
    Re:Today is bash the French Day! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:21PM EST (#402)
    Hmm... while I agree, for the most part, that the stereotype of Americans is deservably pathetic (being American myself) I can't see that bashing censorship (Australia), and invasion of privacy (Britain), is the "redneck" thing to do at all. I've known a lot of rednecks, living in Virginia, and I don't think they care about human rights either (China). And as far as the insults go, as long as they're backed up, and written well, they make good reading anyway... the problem is that so few fit ONE of those criteria, much less both. C'est la vie, to quote a FRENCH phrase and thusly stay ostensibly on topic in some way. Devlocke devlocke@hotmail.com
    Re:Hypocrites (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:05AM EST (#228)
    How could this xenophobic and UN-insightful post be promoted as 3 ?

    I am French.
    I made my civil service in a foreign country, as a 'cooperant'. I do remember very well the briefing the DGSE and DST gave to us at the beginning of the service.
    As we were to go in many different countries, we talk was general, about many countries. It was specified that the two most DANGEROUS countries for us (highly qualified scientists) were China and US. The first because they would try to 'charm' us, using specially beautiful trained feminin spies, the second because of the dishonesty of their secret services, would every year, create false documents as evidences against honest French citisens (I am honest - even if you don't want to believe it) to then threaten them and our governement.

    I know this may sound like a Bond movie, but they gave us details about specific cases, that I won't spread here.

    If US have used illegal means, then they should be sued as the french were in the Rainbow Warrior case. (You may replace US by any country in this sentence).

    The SS of US do have a long story of illegal things (Have you ever heard of Pinochet ?)

    Going on in this Masters of the world behaviour, the us will only make the other countries less and less tolerant to them. Sometimes, I really feel like killing an american for the pleasure. I do think this is a good and reasonable feeling, but US have done so much in the evil way - reintroducing slavery - promoting the Nazis theories (Yes, Hitler only took some american theories) - and much more makes me vomit.


    Re:Hypocrites (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:53AM EST (#246)
    Sorry sonny but it was the Dutch who introduced slavery to North America.
    Re:Hypocrites - or cold-blooded murderers? (Score:1)
    by bobalu on Friday February 11, @12:33PM EST (#382)
    (User Info)
    > Sometimes, I really feel like killing an american for the pleasure

    Really? What a sweetheart. If you'd care to supply your name and address I'm sure we could find some nice biker-dude to give you an opportunity. But maybe Anonymous Coward describes you better than we thought. Tell you what, next time the Germans decide they like the weather in Paris, we'll let them keep it.

    The revolution will NOT be televised.
    Hypocrites: both (Score:1)
    by informagicien (/dev/null+slashdot@lunatech.com) on Friday February 11, @06:54AM EST (#272)
    (User Info) javascript:alert('hello')
    so what ? i'm french.
    and i must say all this contersuing thing makes me laugh.
    would it not be good if both parts stopped doingwhatever spying they are doing now?
    someonw said 'countersue', eayh i hope you will, so that all that's a thread to our privacy will come to an end.
    i hope it's just the first of many suings for privacy.
    as a european i must say i'm surprised at how the english let this happen in England: look at it, an american base in England monitoring europeean traffic ???
    hell i thought they were europeean too?
    are they making this deal to avoid being monitored themselves?
    until we find out there is another place in europe monitoring the English.
    be it in england or in france i find it surprising that another country has a spying military base in a european country.
    what would the US say if they found a european secret spying base in say ... NY ?
    -"i'm X president of the US, open!"
    -" president of who?"
    -"the US, i am your president!"
    -"we're not american!"
    -"well who are you then?"
    -"we're european."
    -"so what is it you're doing in the states?"
    -"mind your own business!"

    remember?
    who would you like it?
    well i don't like it and i don't also like it if europeans are doing this, especially france, so yes, please, contersue!
    -- x
    Re:Hypocrites: both (Score:1)
    by coleSLAW (simon.law@engmail.PLEASEDONTSPAM.uwaterloo.ca) on Friday February 11, @07:59AM EST (#297)
    (User Info)
    "You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! ---Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English knnnniggets. Thppppt!"

    == I am not Me.

    Re:Hypocrites (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @09:06AM EST (#322)
    (User Info)
    French are maybe spying big american corp,
    but they are probably not spying individual
    as american do !

    What is wrong in the report is that not only
    corporation are listened by echelon,
    but all communication private or not !
    Re:Hypocrites (Score:1)
    by belroth (belroth@NoSpamPlease.torcom#co#uk) on Friday February 11, @11:00AM EST (#360)
    (User Info)
    Personally I find a significant difference between countries spying on their allies and keeping what they did secret, and using that information to give a competitive advantage to domestic companies.

    One of the things that irritated the British intelligence services during WWII was what the US did with the Enigma decodes of German U-Boat messages.
    To keep the Germans from realising that their traffic was being read the RN (Coastal Command) flew patrols over where they knew the U-Boats were going to be, 'happened' to spot them and then sent someone to sink them.
    The USN just sailed up and sank them, considered to be a bit of a giveaway.
    I believed the US was now better at 'protecting assets'.

    Except this sort of Industrial espionage is a dead giveaway.

    Would it not be pertinent for some 'Merkins to write their CongreeCritter and ask why the US has spent so many billions of dollars spying for Boeing?

    Or is this another 'creative' deal by an Inteligence agency selling Industrial Secrets to fund 'black ops'? Did the NSA receive any fiscal grattitude from any US companies?


    ----
    I hereby inform you that the police have NOT required me to decode any encrypted/hidden data on my PCs.

    Echelon, Confirmed! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:23PM EST (#12)
    Finally. Yes, I know, a few months ago something happened that for us /.'ers, was confirmation, but now the Mainstream Media should officially be able to make a big hoopla over it. Also, maybe some other corporations will follow suit and maybe, just maybe, (gasp!) force the closure and disassembly of that great threat to freedom, Echelon.
    Echelon was just on TV (Score:2)
    by MrP- (defsoft[NO@SPAM]gis.net) on Thursday February 10, @11:23PM EST (#13)
    (User Info) http://elitemrp.net/
    On that Fox Family channel thing, some CBN show (christian broadcast network, hehe) anyway some guy who wrote a book about it was being interviewed and he said since he released his book, he comes home and his answering machine will be unplugged or shut off, there will be foot prints on his rug, his friends will ask him whats wrong with his phone cause it echos, and his mail is always opened. Wierd, I find it funny though that a christian network is talking about echelon, gov conspiracies, and saying gun control is evil.... anyway just thought i'd mention it was being talked about on tv ... bye

    #----------------------------
    $mrp=~s/mrp/elite god/g;
    #----------------------------
    Re:Echelon was just on TV (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:51PM EST (#60)
    if you ever catch me getting information from the Christian Broadcasting Network, please do not hesitate to execute me on the spot.
    revolution being born (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:03AM EST (#120)
    keep your eyes open.
    I was a snowball in hell. . . (Score:1)
    by thermostat42 on Thursday February 10, @11:23PM EST (#14)
    (User Info)
    Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating,

    So, that'd be about .5 then?


    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." - Douglas Adams

    Yea, well... (Score:1)
    by Pollux (splien/at/gloria/.cord/.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:23PM EST (#15)
    (User Info)
    <I>Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating. </I>

    Yea, and I probably would have said that the probability of them getting money is just as likely as Dennis Rodman remarrying Carmen Electra, but well, ya know...
    Re:Yea, well... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:44PM EST (#49)
    Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Linux becomeing a viable corporate OS. Ya dumb turd, you.
    BRING IT TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT (Score:2)
    by alexhmit01 (alexh@mtaepi.mit.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:24PM EST (#16)
    (User Info)
    Come on, let's use the UN International court. It is hysterical. US charged with violating Cuba's soveirgnty (Bay of Pigs), convicted, US ignores.

    I think we were convicted for one or two other covert deals in the 80s.

    It rocks when the US is convicted and ignores the trial.

    Note: this is sarcasm, not a troll

    There is no body that can convict the US Gov't, save the US Court system (to give financial awards out) and France can hardly sue the US for International espionage.

    This is silly. Come on France, play the cloak and dagger game. When you catch them, make a big stink of it, announce a boycott, trade sanctions, and pull your ambassador.

    Oh wait, if they try for trade sanctions, the WTO can overturn them. If they violate that, then everyone gets to counter embargo within the WTO, kick France out, our whatever they want.

    Let's see an International incident over this stupid project.

    GO GLOBALIZATION!
    Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:2, Insightful)
    by Mekanix on Friday February 11, @05:40AM EST (#241)
    (User Info)

    I don't think it's about spying and money, but that Europe is fed with US being an arrogant
    'bastard' ignoring and forcing forreing government to go 'The American Way'.

    1) US ignores global warming. US just pis on the agreements made in Rio and Kyoto. Ignoring the fact that their largest state, Alaska, is suffering severely from global warming.

    2) Forcing genetic engineered food down our throut, even though there is no evidence that it's safe for humans and environment. Actually UK have had an increase of 50% of people who is allergic to soya, after the introduction of genetic modified soya.

    3) Forcing very strict encryption- and data-protectionlaws. Thanks to the US it's now illegal in Denmark to make backup-copies. Hey, it's even 'illegal' to surf the web (yeah, really stupid law, but apparently the pressure was so strung that the law needed to be rushed through).

    3) Spying on everyboddy. Echelon have been a hot subject i Europe. Everyboddy have heard about it and noboddy could prove it's existence until recently.

    That was the last straw, and the Airbus-issue (eg. this is NOT france vs. US/UK, but Europe vs. US/UK) is just a welcome 'excuse' to tell US to stop bullying contries around.

    Bjarne

    Re:Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:1)
    by jareds (jareds@mit.edu) on Saturday February 12, @01:24PM EST (#424)
    (User Info)

    2) Forcing genetic engineered food down our throut

    Surely no one is forcing consumers to buy the food. Or is the US your only supplier of food?

    3) Forcing very strict encryption- and data-protectionlaws. Thanks to the US it's now illegal in Denmark to make backup-copies. Hey, it's even 'illegal' to surf the web (yeah, really stupid law, but apparently the pressure was so strung that the law needed to be rushed through).

    Yeah, these laws are stupid. Keep in mind that they are being forced on US citizens too.

    3) Spying on everyboddy

    Sorry, but everyone spies on everyone. As other /.ers have mentioned, France itself has a track record of spying. I'm not saying spying isn't bad, but it's not the basis for a complaint that the US is worse than other countries in that regard.


    Re:Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:1)
    by Mekanix on Saturday February 12, @04:56PM EST (#425)
    (User Info)

    1) Genetic enginered food.

    Since genetic enginered food isn't labled consumers have NO CHANCE whatsoever to say no to these untested food.

    Most soya these day are genetically enginered. It's near impossible for farmers to obtain 'clean' soya, so genetic food enters early in the food-chain. Even organic-farmers are having a hard battle.

    Soya and corn is a very common additive in most food, candybars... you name it. Only way to ensure that you are not endangering your health is to buy products that does NOT contain ANY kind of soya or corn.

    So if you by 'choice' imply that people should just stop eating, you are correct!

    2) Encryption/protection-laws.

    The insain law originate from US and the pressure is comming from there: music-industries, movie-industries, NSA/NATO whoever with a control-, power-, moneyaddiction... ie US, land of the-oh-so-free (criminalise sex and hand out guns to everyone!).

    3) Spying.

    .... Denmark and other small european countries haven't the resources to spy! ;-)

    Bjarne
    Re:Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:1)
    by jareds (jareds@mit.edu) on Saturday February 12, @07:59PM EST (#426)
    (User Info)

    1) GM food

    If there were sufficient consumer demand for non-GM food, organic growers would have booming business and would be expanding their operations. Moreover, high demand for non-GM food would lead food companies whose food was non-GM to prominently label it as such. Other companies would have to follow suit, as consumers would begin thinking that anything without a non-GM label was GM. Since none of this stuff is happening, apparently not many people care whether their food is GM or not. I find it hard to believe that those people who do care are unable to find organic growers.

    2) Encryption/copyright - Err.. I thought I already agreed on that one.

    3) Spying - In that case, Denmark should sue the US/UK, instead of France.


    Re:Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:1)
    by Mekanix on Sunday February 13, @05:44AM EST (#427)
    (User Info)
    1)

    This is misunderstood liberalism, and the kind Monsanta et al is keen on using.

    Actually the european consumers DO NOT want GM foods. And that's why US took Europe to court and made WTO rule against the EU decisions against GM food. EU do not want GM-food into our foodchains until it has been SAFE for comsumption and environment. And those evidence are non-existant!

    AND supermarkedchains are having a battle of a lifetime keeping GM-food OUT of their stores (that's their policies). Producers are finding it hard to guruantee that their products is non-GM, since Monsanta have succeed in mixing most non-GM soya with GM-soya. So the choice producers are ending up with is either submit to Monsanta and loose sale or change production/recepies to NOT include soya alltogether, and thus raising productioncosts!

    Lastly, organic food IS a booming business.

    3)

    We don't have the resources. And Denmark is more commited to environment-issues. Ie. our Minister of Environment wasn't very popular with the US-delegates at Kyoto! ;-)

    Bjarne
    Re:Europe is fed up with the US. (Score:1)
    by jareds (jareds@mit.edu) on Sunday February 13, @01:23PM EST (#431)
    (User Info)

      So the choice producers are ending up with is either submit to Monsanta and loose sale or change production/recepies to NOT include soya alltogether, and thus raising production costs!

    Yeah, but banning GM foods from import would just select the second scenario automatically, if there isn't enough non-GM soya available.

    I mean, there either is enough production capacity to feed everyone on non-GM food or there isn't.

    If there is, then consumers could by only non-GM food if they so desired, and no one would import GM food because they couldn't sell it. If there isn't, you can't ban GM food because people would starve.

    If the organic food is actually available (that is, if there isn't a constant shortage of it), and GM food still sells, that simply means that some consumers place price over whether food is GM or not. Even if GM food were unsafe for consumption, it is hardly the job of the government to force consumers not to buy it. Smoking is undeniably more unhealthy than GM foods could possibly be, but nobody complains about tobacco being shoved down their throat, even if it can still be imported.


    Maybe US can ignore - UK cannot (Score:1)
    by mjpk (mjpk@iobox.com) on Friday February 11, @11:11AM EST (#364)
    (User Info)
    There is no body that can convict the US Gov't, save the US Court system (to give financial awards out) and France can hardly sue the US for International espionage.

    This might be true. However, Echelon is supposed to be a collaboration between various countries, including the UK.

    This means that Echelon is subject to the EU legislation. One EU member state spying on other member state surely violates EU internal market rules. Also the emerging 3rd Pillar (Home and Justice Affairs) at least implicitly forbids such a behaviour. The violation of internal market rules, however, are the most serious, since those matters fall in the competence of independent European Communities Court of Justice (which is btw. about only EU institution carrying the acronym EC..).

    If UK gets convicted in ECJ (which would take a s**tload of time), it has absolutely no way to refute the ruling. For a system like Echelon this would propably be quite harmful, since the system needs a physical location in Europe.

    There is also another fact that could make things more hot between EU and the US: The European Parliament subscribed Echelon report, which will be released on 22nd this month. If the EP really gets pissed, it can block future trade deals between US and EU. In addition to that the on-going competition cases could get more backing..

    In summarum: The US is not 100% immune of what the poor idiot Europeans are doing..

    And besides, what an Earth the UK gov't has been thinking, if they supported the spying of the Airbus Consortium?? The Airbus was and is 25% owned by UK company named British Aerospace..

    -miKa

    Re:Maybe US can ignore - UK cannot (Score:1)
    by Nyarly (nyarly@center.universe.net) on Friday February 11, @01:42PM EST (#392)
    (User Info)
    There is also another fact that could make things more hot between EU and the US: The European Parliament subscribed Echelon report, which will be released on 22nd this month. If the EP really gets pissed, it can block future trade deals between US and EU. In addition to that the on-going competition cases could get more backing..

    In summarum: The US is not 100% immune of what the poor idiot Europeans are doing.

    Unfortunately, the US is probably only 2% short of being bulletproof though. There's very little that the States have to import. Plenty that they like to, but as far as food, clothes, electronics, cars, construction materials, and other Stuff of Life goes, the US pretty much has it's bases covered (irony intentional). Very little of the hot commodities are European, either.

    Not to say I endorse the "poor idiot European" stance of the US. They've turtled quite effectively, and made good use of ridiculously abundant natural wealth. But I wonder if a time will come when there's too much water to roll off the American duck's back. And whether the duck will drown or conquer.

    Hrm.

    Ushers will eat latecomers.

    Re:BRING IT TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 15, @02:16PM EST (#435)
    eh? I have seen posts where you all said echelon was evil. Now that France is worried about Echelon and wants to sue US for it's stupid actions, you all think France is eveil. Come on bloody hypocrytes.
    Yea, well... (Score:1)
    by Pollux (splien/at/gloria/.cord/.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:24PM EST (#17)
    (User Info)

    Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating.

    Yea, and I probably would have said that the probability of them getting money is just as likely as Dennis Rodman remarrying Carmen Electra, but well, ya know...


    Gambling in Rick's (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:24PM EST (#18)
    I'm shocked to discover that the government of one country (or in this case, two countries) would actually try to find out information about another country using discrete methods. Now, let's discuss the French government's failures in the Dreyfus Affair.
    legal precedence (Score:1)
    by paxx (mpaxx[SPAM IS CANNON FODDER]@yahoo.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:25PM EST (#21)
    (User Info)
    This should be an interesting case since, as far as I know, there are no legal precedents. I presume the World Court division of the UN would handle the case, as there really is no other feasible way to bring a civil suit against another country. The thing is, there really isn't any established international law. The UN may create and attempt to impose laws, but it's really up to the individual countries as to whether or not they will obey them. It could cause a member nation to lose face if it did not follow the rules, but it isn't the same as a private citizen breaking a state or federal law. Be interesting to see what happens..
    Re:legal precedence (Score:1)
    by GenCuster on Friday February 11, @02:00AM EST (#155)
    (User Info)
    The UN has tried in the past to level fines on countries, see how well it did. The US currently owns the UN millions, they can't do anything about it. If the US follows it constitution, they cannot allow any body sovereignty over the US. Thus no court has jurisdiction over the US except the US's court. The UN is just an advisor.

    Nate Custer

    Go France! (Score:2)
    by Weezul (weasel@havoc.spam.gtf.org) on Thursday February 10, @11:25PM EST (#22)
    (User Info) http://havoc.gtf.org/weasel
    All I can say is I'm glad to see someone with some power pissed off over Echelon. Now, if only this will help our attempts to control the NSA's crap here at home.

    The article did not post what the French want? Hopefully, they want damages and the shutdown of Echelon.. and don't just want in on the deal.. :)

    One thing I noticed:

    Yesterday he said that he would bring an action on behalf of French civil liberty groups.

    Actually, this makes it sound like it is not France suing the US and UK, but just French civil liberties groups. Can anyone clear this up?

    Jeff

    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
    Re:Go France! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:46PM EST (#51)
    Jeff,

    You were GREAT in Starman - that was also Carpenter's best work. Don't listen to what the fans say! Hang in there, you crusty old shit you!

    Aw, c'mere. Gimmie some sweet extra-terrestrial kisses. You green dumb turd, you.


    Re:Go France! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:24AM EST (#85)
    Aw, c'mere. Gimmie some sweet extra-terrestrial kisses. You green dumb turd, you.

    I would but you never troll me anymore.. ;)

    If you troll this post some more I just might give you a big surprise.

    Re:Go France! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:19AM EST (#82)
    > All I can say is I'm glad to see someone with some power pissed off over Echelon.

    Um, i don't understand who exactly you're referring to. The discussion you're posting in is talking about France. Please post a URL referencing whatever "someone with some power" youre referring to.
    Don't Worry. It'll just make some attorneys richer (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:27PM EST (#25)
    This isn't a big deal. I seriously doubt anything would come of it. Jurisdictional issues prevent any meaningful relief for the plaintif. This is just another scheme a few clever attorneys are using to help pay for this month's rent and car payment.
    One word: Countersuit. (Score:3, Informative)
    by Apuleius (ocschwar@nospam.mit.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:27PM EST (#26)
    (User Info) http://udamisha.tep.org
    France has been engaging in industrial espionage to give French firms an advantage:

    http://www.aci.net/Kalliste/industryespion.pdf

    I really hope the US and UK countersue, because then maybe more info on both issues will be revealed.


    Tune out. Turn off. Log in.
    Re:One word: Countersuit. (Score:1)
    by Howie (slashdot@thingy.com) on Friday February 11, @05:49AM EST (#244)
    (User Info) http://wotsit.thingy.com/
    Going back a few years further - I seem to recall that the French government employed government intelligence agencies to help Thomson win a large contract over (IIRC) Phillips during the 80's. At the time that was reported, it wasn't the first time people had heard of such things from them.
    -- "there's nowt so queer as folk"
    Re:One word: Countersuit. (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:57AM EST (#251)
    (User Info)
    so wat ? Phillips is not a US, nor a UK company AFAIK.
    Re:One word: Countersuit. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:32AM EST (#284)
    The French are just scared shitless of the Dutch Army.
    Re:One word: Countersuit. (Score:1)
    by JordanH (jordan@greenapple.com) on Friday February 11, @09:45AM EST (#332)
    (User Info)
      so wat ? Phillips is not a US, nor a UK company AFAIK.

    One word: Hypocrisy.

    So, I guess it's just fine to practice this sort of underhanded dealing yourself, but if someone does it to you, it's wrong?


    -Jordan Henderson
    Try Customizing your Slashdot Display to "Light"(see preferences). It's faster and the simple display helps you to focus on content.

    You all SUCK at CONSPIRACY THEORIES -> ..... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:13PM EST (#398)
    It is interesting that this is coming up now. Im guessing that they really dont think they will get money. They want PR on ECHELON. Someone did note that in Slashdot. I think they are doing this now so this NSA stunt does not make people clamor as much for net law enforcement / eavsdropping. I believe they did the DOS thing. It has an effect. However they wont be the one responsible for something that everyone believes will happen but has their head in the sand about. It will have a much larger effect on our civil liberties. A real TERRORRIST will use some WMD on a large us city at some point. WE WiLL BeCOme a PoLicE StaTE at that point.
    Pot-Kettle-black (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:28PM EST (#27)
    Wow, the froggies are complaining about eavesdropping!!! This is a country that has a really _bad_ history ofgovt sponsored industrial espionage, sounds like sour grapes to me.
    Encryption (Score:1)
    by jesser on Thursday February 10, @11:32PM EST (#29)
    (User Info) http://www.palosverdes.com/jesse/
    Jean-Pierre Millet, a Parisian lawyer, said that Echelon tracked every mobile and satellite call, but only decoded those involving a key figure. "You can bet that every time a French government minister makes a mobile phone call, it is recorded," he said.

    Which is exactly why we need encryption. After this, I will assume France to be on the privacy side of the privacy-security debate.

    --
    slashdot: I miss my free time, Rob.

    Re:Encryption (Score:1)
    by FyreFiend (FyreFiend@com.mac) on Friday February 11, @12:50AM EST (#112)
    (User Info) http://www.op.net/~dwarf
    >Which is exactly why we need encryption. After
    >this, I will assume France to be on the privacy
    >side of the privacy-security debate.

    If memory serves the French Gov. Out lawed all forms of encryption a few years ago, but I could be wrong.

    -Fyre
    "Last night I had to put the dog out.....I still don't know where the cat got the matches!!!"
    Re:Encryption (Score:1)
    by twinpot on Friday February 11, @04:08AM EST (#202)
    (User Info)
    That has changed now. It used to be that you couldn't use or import anything "strongish". They are actually advocating its use now
    Re:Encryption (Score:1)
    by ewheel on Friday February 11, @02:13PM EST (#397)
    (User Info)
    It's about time! Why should they blame Echelon for reading email or listening to cell phone calls. Anyone can do it without encryption. They should blame executives who discuss sensitive proposal data over open cell phones or unencrypted email. At first, it was the European Parliment blaming the US for pushing key escrow for purposes of industrial espionage. That is so ridiculous, because the escrowed keys certainly wouldn't be held by the US. If they were, who in thier right mind would encrypt competition (with the US) sensitive data with thier escrowed key. Hopfully, France and the rest of the world will begin to see the light. Privacy is a basic human right, and one way to protect it is with encryption. The US respects this right to the extent that it is illegal to wiretap, without a court order, in a criminal investigation. I found it humorous when the ban came on radio scanners which could scan cell phone frequencies. As a kid, I made a little radio with a diode hooked to the water pipes. It seems ridiculous that it would be illegal to turn the tuning knob too far. That is like making a law that you must cover your ears if you hear someone talking softly to someone else. If you don't want anyone else to know something, don't broadcast it to the world (unencrypted).
    I've got one thing to say... (Score:1)
    by Greg Merchan (merchan@phys.lsu.edu) on Thursday February 10, @11:32PM EST (#30)
    (User Info)
    ... and it can be found here.
    Go Rob Go! (Score:1)
    by TDO (tdo@NO-SPAMgeeks.org) on Thursday February 10, @11:32PM EST (#31)
    (User Info) http://www.geeks.org/~tdo/
    So if France DOES get money from the US, does that also mean that Rob gets to date Heather?

    ---
    "To know recursion, you must first know recursion."
    OPEN SOURCE ECHELON (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:33PM EST (#32)
    we interrupt your regularly scheduled troll to bring you a slashdot service announcemnt from open source man

    ok, "hemos," i've taken a lot of heat about posting my "sick fantasies about natalie portman" here. so, what makes you think anyone (including even me) is interested in your sick fantasies about rob and heather graham?!

    furthermore, what's with this "heather graham" stuff anyway? no open source heather graham? do we really want the voice of the open source community advocating the use of a closed source hot not-as-young actress?! you have really let us down on this one.

    i see the takeover has had an effect on the content here. how much were you paid, "hemos" (if you are, indeed, "hemos") to slide in that little plug for a non-community-friendly hot not-as-young actress? what do we have to look forward to next? closed-source not-so-hot not-as-young actors?! my spine crawls at the very thought.

    i warn you, "hemos," turn away from this abyss while you still can! slashdot can still be saved. a nice start would be to give us our natalie portman icon! once and for all, show your support for the copyrighted undistributable open source natalie portman and open source drew barrymore project!! reward us handsomely, "hemos," with the recognition we deserve!!!!


    thank you.
    Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by pedro (prschmitt@expungeme.geocities.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:33PM EST (#33)
    (User Info)
    I don't mean to bash the french, but...
    If the quality of their automobiles (internationally regarded as hideous crap eclipsed only by the former eastern bloc) is any indication of their engineering acumen, perhaps the potential client for the aforementioned contract made a *very* smart decision by going Boeing. (ooh! a pun!)

    We're all bezos on this bus! Nobody moves very much in a Hanna-Barbera cartoon - Zorak
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by anonymous cowerd (WKiernan@concentric.net) on Thursday February 10, @11:51PM EST (#59)
    (User Info) http://www.concentric.net/~Wkiernan/index.html
    Bull, the Citroen DS was the finest thing on four wheels since the Bugatti. You just don't take enough acid to appreciate great engineering, mon vieux. Yours W. KIERNAN

    US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:54PM EST (#67)
    I'd take a French car over American junk any day. Heck, the only country in the world still building cars with solid axles is... USA! That stuff dates from the horse and cart!

    As for their Aerospace expertise, ever heard of Ariane? It can launch heavier payloads to higher orbits than the shuttle. That's pretty important for geosyncronous orbits/communications satellites. The only thing the US has in that department are old Saturn rockets from the 70's.

    And Boeing's still scrambling to catch up with Airbus on it's "fly-by-wire" technology. And they can't even do that very well. How much has Boeing's flagship fly-by-wire plane, the 777, sold? Compared to Airbus? Hardly any. It's a failure for them.

    Last point. A substantial quantity of Boeing's top airframe expertise is hired on contract from Europe. The US just doesn't have enough native talent!

    You don't have to like the French, but don't knock them either. They do actually know a thing or two.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:1)
    by pedro (prschmitt@expungeme.geocities.com) on Friday February 11, @12:15AM EST (#79)
    (User Info)
    Dude, serious engineers decry fly-by wire for everything but military aircraft, where losing a few is a given. Not an option for civilian aircraft, where hundreds could die. Boeing is being very rational and conservative if they are (rightly) maintaining hydraulic control as primary. Ever hear of *bugs*, my friend?
    The 777, I don't know about. You may be right there. If so, 'DOH!'
    As for airframes, I grant you that. (As well as british dominance in race engine building. HUH? 'wretched' a term I once saw describing british auto reliability. Whoda thunkit?) But Europe != france!
    My beef with france is their notoriously Xenophobic, NIH attitude about just about everything. Hell, they actually have what amounts to a ministry of cultural purity!
    You don't grow intellectually thinking like that. As a person, or as a nation.


    We're all bezos on this bus! Nobody moves very much in a Hanna-Barbera cartoon - Zorak
    But they aren't... (Score:2)
    by Robert S Gormley (rgormley@expert.com.au) on Friday February 11, @12:44AM EST (#106)
    (User Info) http://www.obsidian.darker.net/
    ...maintaining hydraulic control. They are touting it as their new flagship. Just as Airbus is with the A340s... Boeing just isn't doing as well as Airbus...

    ... which is a consortium, not a French company.

    Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.

    Re:But they aren't... (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:16AM EST (#235)
    (User Info)
    Airbus will be controlled by a French-German
    dominated company (EADS), after the merger between France's Aerospatiale Matra, Germany's DASA and Spain's CASA in the next few month. FBW technology and generaly the electronics are mainly French, the Germans making the body of the plane. UK's BAe Systems is left with the wings, and I hope with nothing soon, so that they can go and suck Boeing's cock as they have long dreamed of.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:11AM EST (#229)
    (User Info)
    well you're just unaware that there exist technology to produce software that is sufficiently secure to do that job. And that is precisely a European speciality, and something different in European CS courses. This also leads to secure railway signaling system, electronics in car engines and brakes, etc.

    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:35AM EST (#351)
    > Dude, serious engineers decry fly-by wire for everything but military aircraft, where losing a
    > few
    > is a given. Not an option for civilian aircraft, where hundreds could die. Boeing is being very
    > rational and conservative if they are (rightly) maintaining hydraulic control as primary. Ever
    > hear of *bugs*, my friend?
    Honestly:

    I trust Airbus electronic more than Boing mechanics. (Remember the Boing wich has lost its roof)?
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:00PM EST (#378)
    for civilian aircraft, where hundreds could die. Boeing is being very rational and conservative if they are (rightly) maintaining hydraulic control as primary.

    The Aribus 320 has had fly-by-wire for years and a great safety record. In fact the FBW system saved the day on several cases of pilot screw-ups (one of them during an airshow in Alsace saveral years back: the pilot stalled the plane, but the FBW managed to keep the plane right-side up and gently dropped it in a bunch of trees at the end of the runway).

    The 777, I don't know about. You may be right there. If so, 'DOH!'

    Yep the 777 does have FbW. Boeing was late by about 10 years. It scares me to think that Boeing's FbW software is written in Seattle, a city not known for the reliability of its software. Boeing was 10 years late with FbW the same way Micro$oft was 10 years late with multitasking and multimedia (first appeared in Win95 whereas AmigaOS had it in 1985).

    My beef with france is their notoriously Xenophobic, NIH attitude about just about everything.

    c'mon now, not nearly as much as Americans. Every country has a slight superiority complex, but America has HUUUUUGE one.

    Hell, they actually have what amounts to a ministry of cultural purity!

    They do have a "Culture" minister because they actually have a culture, and they care about it. It has nothing to do with "purity", and everything to do with quality. For example, the culture ministry will support Jazz orchestras (an American art form "par excellence"), but won't support french popular/commercial music.

    as for Americans.....their only interesting pieces of genuinely original culture (like Jazz music) are shamelessly ignored by them (not by other countries though). The rest of their so-called culture (movies, popular music,...) is not culture. It's just business, like everything else in America.

    signed: a European expatriate living in A merry cow.

    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:1)
    by unity (unity@inlink.com) on Friday February 11, @12:34AM EST (#94)
    (User Info) http://www.b2bstores.com
    I'd take a French car over American junk any day. Heck, the only country in the world still building cars with solid axles is... USA! That stuff dates from the horse and cart!

    Actually I'd like to see you take your ifs-crap vehicle where i take my solid-axle jeep.

    Use the right technology for the job, and solid-axles work in some places, heavy workloads, rock-crawling, etc...
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:1)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @02:20AM EST (#169)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    > Actually I'd like to see you take your ifs-crap vehicle where i take > my solid-axle jeep. What would be the point? Here in "Yuurp", we have these neat things called roads. The Romans invented them, I believe.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:25AM EST (#187)
    I hate the traffic circles we (here in Europe) have. I'll take driving an American car in the US over a European car on a European road any day of the week.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:45AM EST (#191)
    As long as you're not in Boston. :)

    Damn Pilgrims, never could fix them roads.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:45PM EST (#393)
    Not me, and I'm American.

    Traffic circles are *great* for keeping the traffic flowing in smaller intersections -- a European analogue to right-turn-on-red laws. Stoplights force traffic to wait on the arbitrary timing of the light, whether it's safe to go or not. Now, I agree traffic circles ten lanes wide (like in place de l'Etoile) are a terrible idea.
    Fly by Wire? Not me, please! (Score:1)
    by georgeha on Friday February 11, @08:35AM EST (#309)
    (User Info) http://www.frontiernet.net/~ghaberbe/george2.htm
    And Boeing's still scrambling to catch up with Airbus on it's "fly-by-wire" technology. And they can't even do that very well. How much has Boeing's flagship fly-by-wire plane, the 777, sold? Compared to Airbus? Hardly any. It's a failure for them.

    Fly by wire scares the crap out of me. I've been working with computers for a decade, and I still haven't found an OS that I would trust my life to, no, not even Linux or Solaris.

    Give me alloy cables directly connecting the control surfaces, make them triply redundant, and run them through the trailing edges of the wings (unlike the DC-10, where an engine dropping off tears up the leading edge, and the control cable).

    Engineers that deal with material objects (ie. Aerospace, Mechanical, etc) plan for failure, tey assume things will go wrong, and make contingency plans. The only contingency plans for fly by wire I've heard of are the three flight computers in the Shuttle, where they vote and majority rules.

    George
    Re:Fly by Wire? Not me, please! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:38AM EST (#353)
    > The only contingency plans for fly by
    wire I've heard of are the three flight computers
    > in the Shuttle, where they vote and majority
    rules.

    Airbus uses the same idea...

    Re:Fly by Wire? Not me, please! (Score:1)
    by georgeha on Friday February 11, @01:16PM EST (#388)
    (User Info) http://www.frontiernet.net/~ghaberbe/george2.htm
    > The only contingency plans for fly by
    wire I've heard of are the three flight computers
    > in the Shuttle, where they vote and majority
    rules.

    Airbus uses the same idea...


    Really, multiple computers, multiple networks, multiple NICs on the control elements, and UPS's for each system?

    I still like the idea of having 19th century cable and pulleys to fall back on in emergency.

    George

    Aerospace (Score:1)
    by T-Punkt on Friday February 11, @10:20AM EST (#345)
    (User Info)
    > As for their Aerospace expertise, ever heard of
    Ariane? It can launch heavier payloads to higher
    > orbits than the shuttle. That's pretty important for geosyncronous orbits/communications
    > satellites. The only thing the US has in that department are old Saturn rockets from the 70's.

    I'm a big fan of the Ariane, but all of this is wrong.

    1. The shuttle can launch much more than the Ariane V into LEO: 24.4t (204km orbit) vs 18t (185km)

    For higher orbits (i.e. geosynchronous) satellites needs much bigger kick-engines when launched with the shuttle, since Ariane already inserts its payload into eliptic GTOs, the shuttle can't do that. This makes ~5.9t (into GTO) for the shuttle vs 6.8t for Ariane V.

    2. The American Titan 4B can launch more than the Ariane V: LEO 21.64t (185) GTO (8620).

    3. The US has no old Saturn rockets that could be launched anymore and can't build new ones :-).

    The big pluses of Ariane that makes Arianespace the leading launcher are:
    1. Price
    2. Reliability of service (e.g. no hurricanes in Kourou wich could delay launch (and probably cost the contraction $$s))
    3. Precision of orbit injection (wich saves satellite fuel and enhances satellite lifetime)
    4. "contract to orbit" time
    But not power.

    Have a look at
    http://www.friends-partners.org/~mwade/spaceflt.htm

    It's a great page with detailled information about all known launch systems in the world.

    -- I don't need no stinkin' signature
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:52AM EST (#357)
    Actually we have Titan rockets which we use to place most satelites in orbit. And when they don't explode on lift off they are quite superior to Ariane.
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:05AM EST (#361)
    how old is the titan?
    Re:US vs. French Technology (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:55AM EST (#358)
    I paraphrase a qoute from the russain in "Armagedon." French Technology, American Technology it is the same it is all built in Tiawan.
    Airbus (Score:1)
    by Robert S Gormley (rgormley@expert.com.au) on Friday February 11, @12:43AM EST (#103)
    (User Info) http://www.obsidian.darker.net/
    ... is a European consortium, not a French company.

    Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.

    Re:Airbus (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:58AM EST (#181)
    The crash investigators at the 1998 Airbus crash in Taiwan were all French.
    Re:Airbus (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:42AM EST (#328)
    And French are Europeans... (Look up the CIA-World Factbook if you don't know where France is located) -> So where's your point?

    Airbus fatality statistics (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:38AM EST (#173)
    Are here: http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/airbus.htm#A300
    Boing fatality statistics (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:48AM EST (#334)
    Are here: http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/boeing.htm

    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by twinpot on Friday February 11, @04:16AM EST (#206)
    (User Info)
    Well, their cars a damn fine actually. Let's not forget the earlier Bugatti, Delage, Delahaye, Citroen TA, DS etc. Citroen also built the first production car with anti-roll technology, and the new Renaults are truely different (Avantime). They are also building some extremely mad cars too - how about a Clio Sport (A VW Golf sized hatchback with a mid mounted 3 litre engine and top speed of over 150mph).

    Seriously, cars suitable form one market are not necessarily suitable for another. Many US cars are simply too big to use in European cities, and they do not handle so well at high speeds (which are common) and on narrow, twisty roads. Hence, many Euro cars are smaller, which are not so suitable or appropriate for the US roading system.

    The make mighty fine trains too. ("We have now reached our cruising speed of 320kmh")
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by MasterOfMuppets (james@prophet5.DONTSPAMME.freeserve.co.uk) on Friday February 11, @06:08AM EST (#257)
    (User Info) http://www.prophet5.freeserve.co.uk
    Renault 5 GT Turbo's are available for about £800ukp, have a 1.4 turbocharged engine, do 0-60 in 7 and a bit seconds, handle well, and only blow up every 40,000 miles (!) That's a cool car.. --
    The Master Of Muppets, Achtung Cuccurrullo. 8{}
    Re:more french cars (Score:2)
    by radja (oldshoe@itookmyprozac.com) on Friday February 11, @07:07AM EST (#278)
    (User Info) http://www.ankh.morpork.net/~nobbs/
    Citroen spawned the humble, yet quite fantastic 2CV. One of its design specifications was that a farmer should be able to drive it over a bumpy, sandy path with a box of eggs, without a single egg breaking..they're pretty neat things :)

    //rdj
    Where's my coffee-mug?
    Re:more french cars (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:51PM EST (#420)
    dont forget to have a pig in it at the same time :)
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:03AM EST (#226)
    (User Info)
    This is not quite a good time to rant about Boeing's reliability being superior to Airbus'.
    Ask Alaska Airlines guys.

    An other thing : Each and every market lost by Boeing to airbus in the past 15 years (and that's half of the world's sales) have been lost because of the inability of Boeing to adopt reliable fly-by-wire technology. This involves putting hundreds of passenger's lives in the hands of computer software, something I don't want to be done in the country that made Bill Gates a billionnaire.
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:1)
    by georgeha on Friday February 11, @08:52AM EST (#316)
    (User Info) http://www.frontiernet.net/~ghaberbe/george2.htm
    This is not quite a good time to rant about Boeing's reliability being superior to Airbus'.
    Ask Alaska Airlines guys.


    Are you talking about the MD-83 that crashed near Los Angeles?

    Here's a clue, the MD in MD-83 stands for McDonnell-Douglas. While technically the MD-83 is made by Boeing, it's only because of the merger of McDonnell-Douglas with Boeing.

    I consider the MD-83 a Boeing plane about as much as I consider the Alpha a chip made my Compaq. Really, it's just an updated DC-9, and they suck, though not as much as the DC-10.

    An other thing : Each and every market lost by Boeing to airbus in the past 15 years (and that's half of the world's sales) have been lost because of the inability of Boeing to adopt reliable fly-by-wire technology. This involves putting hundreds of passenger's lives in the hands of computer software, something I don't want to be done in the country that made Bill Gates a billionnaire.

    I don't want anyone to use fly-by-wire for civilian aircraft, I don't trust, I've had too many computers crash on me, I've seen too many bugs in my testing days.

    George
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:46AM EST (#333)
    This is one of the things I love about /.,

    Person A: Fuddy remark, fud fud fud

    Traditional media stops here. But on /., we get to see a cascade of

    Person B: What you said is demonstrably false.

    This rarely happens in the media any more.

    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:35PM EST (#384)
    This involves putting hundreds of passenger's lives in the hands of computer software, something I don't want to be done in the country that made Bill Gates a billionnaire.

    Which country was that? If Windows is only sold in the US, why does it have options for French keyboards, among others?

    Re:french windows (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:44PM EST (#409)
    for your impending Colon-isation of Canada, obviously.
    Re:Anyone clued in on Airbus QC? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 13, @06:26AM EST (#428)
    You certainly know how to make yourself look stupid, don't you? French automobiles have always been ahead of their time. Andre Citroen was one of the most innovative and forward-looking automobile engineers. All Citroens have been front-wheel drive since before the Second World War, long before other manufacturers seemed to think that this was a good idea. Virtually all small- to medium-size cars are now FWD. Citroens have also been long praised for their unequalled ride and handling characteristics. Renault has had a long a amazing lifespan too. Formula 1 victories, participation a Le Mans, notable design successes (Twingo, Sport Spider), the producer of the legendary 4CV. Peugeot likewise has had a distinguished automobile production history, with Formula 1 and Le Mans particpation, great rally cars, amazing reliability in the unstoppable 404, jaw-dropping looks and performance with concepts like the Asphalte and Quasar. Other French marques like Bugatti, Delahaye, Delage, Talbot-Lago, Chenard-Walcker, Alpine, Gordini, Hispano-Suiza, Darracq, De Dion, Voisin and others have established France firmly as one of the countries with the richest automotive history world-wide. Try knowing what you're talking about before using your mouth like an arsehole.
    Chances (Score:1)
    by SkulkCU (custudent at a free email service owned by bill) on Thursday February 10, @11:34PM EST (#34)
    (User Info) http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/jjm39/
    I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating.

    "..I'd say more like one in a million."

    "So you're saying there's a chance?!?"

    .sig last updated Jan. 14, 2000
    declassified documents? (Score:1)
    by lythari on Thursday February 10, @11:36PM EST (#35)
    (User Info)
    What declassified NSA documents is the article talking about? I find it quite hard to belive that the NSA would declassify anything.
    wha..? (Score:1)
    by rynoamy on Thursday February 10, @11:36PM EST (#36)
    (User Info)
    Okay now how does this work? The French government (is that right?) sues the UK and the US governments over this espionage deal in France. WTF?? What did I miss? How does France sue our government in their country? Who's our lawyer? What court has the authority to try the case? In what country does the lawyer have to have passed the bar exam? This doesn't make any damn sense at all.

    I mean, I can see why the French are pissed off. That's certainly understandable. But sue? How? In what court? What judge gets to order a government (any government) to pay damages to another government? What about the sovereign right of nations? Does anyone else see the problem, here?

    This is a little like having a corporation arrested: who the hell gets arrested, since a corporation is only a person on paper, and no one individual can legally be held liable for the entire corporation's actions (this is why you can't sue, say, the CEO for something the corporation did; you have to sue the company itself).

    How is this supposed to work?


    --- I've been in school *way* too long....

    Re:wha..? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:52PM EST (#63)
    FIRST POST!!!

    YES I GOT ONE FUKEN FINALLY

    first post
    FIRST post
    FIRST POST
    FIRST POST!!!

    f-i-r-s-t p-o-s-t

    f
    i
    r
    s
    t
    ppppp oooo ssss tttt!!!!

    "I said hey hey HEY I GOT the FIRST post ya!"

    I got it i got it YOU DIDN'T you suck

    YOU SUCK suck my hairy balls you dumb turd
    YEAHH YEEE HAAA!!!!


    Re:wha..? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:18AM EST (#80)
    The US and UK will loose, France will press the issue in the EU, and then...

    a little less compitition in the aerospace industry for an un-named French company because of the sanctions until the US pays up.

    Sounds like a good deal for France.
    Re:wha..? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:35AM EST (#97)
    whatever, France, thats funny.
    Re:wha..? IANAL, but (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:55PM EST (#412)
    The UK is in the European Union, and that has a court which is higher than any British court, so that would be binding on Britain.

    However Britain also produces parts for the Airbus, so I find specifically giving Boeing info unlikely, though passing on a mass of uninspected data to the USA which happened to contain that, maybe.


    It's just posturing... (Score:2, Interesting)
    by The Man on Thursday February 10, @11:38PM EST (#37)
    (User Info) http://foobazco.org
    There's no way anything like a lawsuit in international court or whatever is going to matter. The US at least tends to ignore international law when it feels like it, and if the suit is actually in France, then there's nothing obligating the defendents to even show up.

    This is what used to be done in an exceedingly classy fashion as the old "international incident." Foreign power spies. You spy back. You catch $FOREIGN_POWER's spy. You make a big deal about it. Scandal ensues, lots of fun for everyone, etc. A lawsuit of any kind is just a prissier version of the same old thing.

    Of course, good may come of this - greater exposure of Echelon is ultimately a good thing for everyone as it keeps the US and its allies a little more honest. Of course, the fact that we're here discussing Echelon means it's been superceded, but it's the idea that counts, eh?

    -- TM, listening in on my Congressman's Phone Sex session on his cell.

    Re:It's just posturing... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:50PM EST (#57)
    The Man,

    I went and saw The Man on the Moon and you weren't in it anywhere, you dumb turd. Usually I like to support actors in this fine art, but in this case I hope you die. DIE DIE DIE

    Aw, c'mere you dumb shit. I don't want you to really die. Just choke a bit. On linux spooge or something.


    Heather Graham (Score:1)
    by einstein (SePiAnMsStPeAiMnS_P_A_M@ShPoAtMmSaPiAlM.ScPoAmM) on Thursday February 10, @11:41PM EST (#39)
    (User Info)
    who knows...her character in Austin Powers went for Mike Myers... maybe she has a thing for TTH's like Rob... Hemos is just jealous..don't see why though, Nitrozac drawing all ripped and all...
    So, can we sue over "Frenchelon"? (Score:1)
    by Zico (ZicoKnows@hotmail.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:41PM EST (#41)
    (User Info)

    One French official claims that "Frenchelon" intercepts about 2 million messages per month. While on an incredibly smaller scale than Echelon's estimated 3 million messages per minute, they're making themselves out to be major hypocrites here.

    Hey, then again, maybe this was the reason for France's stupid effort to force French web sites to use the French language. Much easier to read those intercepted emails that way, eh Jacque?

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com


    Re:So, can we sue over "Frenchelon"? (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @09:18AM EST (#325)
    (User Info)
    Hypocrite are not us :

    what is going when american sue a french hacker ?
    -> French gov't collaborate.
    also,
    if the american gov't isn't agree with the judge
    decision ( exemple the hacker is relaxed and doesn't got anything ).

    The american try to extrade it in their country
    in legal or *illegal* way...

    so please don't say stupidity like that !

    what is going when french sue an american hacker ?
    -> American gov't ignore it.

    they're always bitching (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:43PM EST (#45)
    When I was in France, an Ariane 5 rocket exploaded. The first reports were "American sabotage". They later confirmed this was not the case. But geeze, the nerve those frogs have sometimes.
    Not really (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:42PM EST (#385)
    I would come to the same conclusions that it muts have been the Yankees.
    Not really (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:43PM EST (#386)
    I and most Europenas in such kind of events would come to the same conclusion that it must related to the Yankees.
    Rob!! (Score:1)
    by Heather Graham on Thursday February 10, @11:43PM EST (#46)
    (User Info)
    Why don't you call me anymore?

    Bastard.

    Re:Rob!! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:48PM EST (#55)
    ROTFLMAO!
    Re:Rob!! = +1 Funny (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:59AM EST (#196)
    (insert obligatory "naked and petrified" comment here)
    Vichy Regime (Score:0, Flamebait)
    by rambone on Thursday February 10, @11:45PM EST (#50)
    (User Info)
    The French? Come on, these are the people that elected a known member of the Vichy Regime to a high political office. If that's not pathetic, I don't know what is.
    Re:Vichy Regime (Score:1)
    by imr on Friday February 11, @12:27AM EST (#88)
    (User Info)
    that s right but we judged him when we find out. and we never elected a senile movie star as president, so we re not that crazy yet .
    Re:Vichy Regime (Score:1)
    by rambone on Friday February 11, @06:58PM EST (#416)
    (User Info)
    no, you still haven't figured it out - you shoot traitors, you don't elect them.
    JUST IN: France pronouced Vendetta on UK and US (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:47PM EST (#52)
    Brother Lai, Prime Whiny Bitch of Franch, declares Vendetta against Provost Zakharov of the United States and Sister Miriam of the United Kingdom.


    Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 10, @11:48PM EST (#53)

    I'm a US Citizen, as I'm guessing most Slashdotters are. I'm GLAD we're spying on France, and I don't understand why so many slashdotters are anti-Echelon.

    Seriously, don't you think it's in your best interest for your government to be well-informed about the global situation? You would be deluding yourself if you thought that friends don't spy on friends; you can certainly bet that France would spy on YOU if they had the technology.

    If you're still not convinced, go pick up Sun Tzu's The Art of War and read it until you finally get it...it's much better to be prepared for a conflict that never happens than to be surprised by your ignorance.


    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:19AM EST (#81)
    Finally... you and I must be the only people loyal to the US on this site...
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:03AM EST (#227)
    um hello? thats just about the stupidest thing i've heard this week. if you were truly 'loyal to the US' you would hold its ideals (including it's citizens right to personal privacy) in high esteem. you may be for big government spying but that has nothing to do with being 'loyal to the US' all that means is youre naievely patriotic.
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:27AM EST (#89)
    Every Moderator who does not moderate this up is a Red-Commie-Leftist-Alien-Dutchman!!!
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by Rares Marian (rmarian@winblowsstart.com) on Friday February 11, @12:35AM EST (#96)
    (User Info)
    I'm a US Citizen

    Ok? so what? (incid. so am I)

    as I'm guessing most Slashdotters are?

    Why? You coming from that American Interent where all 'mericans go?

    I'm GLAD we're spying on France

    I'm not it means we'll see the legacy of James Bond ruined again by Hollywood milking the hype monster.

    It's also "primitive" like the trench warfare that gained .234546576 inches for two weeeks then lost .9987556765 inches of territory the next week, or the espionage of Cold war.

    and I don't understand why so many slashdotters are anti-Echelon.

    I think you do understand Mr. AC. It has been explained a bazillion times. Echelon spies on American citizens (course they can't defend w/o flaming), Australian citizens (course they can't care), and Brits (course they don't care).

    Seriously, don't you think it's in your best interest for your government to be well-informed about the global situation?

    WTF does the global situation have to do with businessmen? If you're going to spy on arms tech then do it discretely. They have no reason to be spying on household items.

    You would be deluding yourself if you thought that friends don't spy on friends; you can certainly bet that France would spy on YOU if they had the technology. If you're still not convinced, go pick up Sun Tzu's The Art of War and read it until you finally get it...it's much better to be prepared for a conflict that never happens than to be surprised by your ignorance.

    Yes, they're going to attack us with our secret Heinz Ketchup recipe.

    Besides, we're at the edge, anything developed tomorrow is obsolete yesterday computers are making inventing so easy everything will be an obvious non patentable idea in the next 5 years.

    Look this is about industrial espionage. When it gets to arms we'll call you.


    Petrified Iron Clad solution: Rob, Jeff - Create the /. API that let's us parse titles and content in articles
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @03:52AM EST (#192)

    I wrote:I'm a US Citizen as I'm guessing most Slashdotters are.

    Rares responded:Why? You coming from that American Interent where all 'mericans go?

    Because Slashdot is located in the US. Because the cultural references are very US-centric. And because the majority of posters whose geographical I can determine are from the US.

    I do understand that there are many non-US people reading this, and of course their viewpoint is valid and should be heard. But I still think that the biggest demographic slashdot group is US citizens, and I still believe that Echelon protects their best interests.


    Re:Why hate Echelon? (we are all european) (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:38AM EST (#288)
    Because Slashdot is located in the US. Because the cultural references are very US-centric. And because the majority of posters whose geographical I can determine are from the US.

    If you can't respect minority and difference, you can't respect Linux philosophy.

    1)
    100% of english post != English/american users.

    2)
    US == ~270.000.000 Poeple
    EU == ~350.000.000 Poeple :)

    3)
    linus == finish
    Suse == germany
    mandrake == france
    Internet == international

    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by Rares Marian (rmarian@winblowsstart.com) on Friday February 11, @10:27AM EST (#348)
    (User Info)
    Why? You coming from that American Interent where all 'mericans go?

    I said that because I don't see any relevance of nationality in this situation, not even on the classic question of national bias. They're stealing industrial secrets.

    Granted I've been on a spot-the-poster's-lure kick for the last few days.
    Petrified Iron Clad solution: Rob, Jeff - Create the /. API that let's us parse titles and content in articles
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by casp_ on Friday February 11, @06:17AM EST (#261)
    (User Info)
    You should stop thinking that France is a small country with small technology : this is completly wrong, and even if they sue you, they do the same thing over you (spying ). Now i'm not sure this is for money purpose.
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:10AM EST (#164)
    I'm a US Citizen, as I'm guessing most Slashdotters are.

    *Bzzzt*! Wrong, but thank you for playing!

    I don't understand why so many slashdotters are anti-Echelon.

    I've been told that the US constitution contains some kind of clause about the citizens right to privacy, so arguably it's a matter of constitutional law and the maintinence of the citizens constitutional rights, but don't quote me on that.

    Seriously, don't you think it's in your best interest for your government to be well-informed about the global situation?

    Thats the whole problem - in spite of the USA's vast information collection network, you can take it for granted that your elected representatives will be the last to know. The NSA/CIA/[insert your favorite spook agency here] collect the information for their own use, not the use of the elected representatives of the US citizenry.

    FOI requests for activities in the 50's - 70's has shown a consistent pattern of abuse by these agencies in their dealings with other nations ( including some of their best friends ). There's no reason to believe that things are any different today.

    Availability of information to the likes of No Such Agency does not logically imply that your elected representatives are any better informed about the state of world events than the service staff at your local McDonalds outlet.

    "It is raining" logically implies that "There are clouds in the sky".

    "There are clouds in the sky" does not logically imply that it is raining.


    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:02AM EST (#198)

    I've been told that the US constitution contains some kind of clause about the citizens right to privacy, so arguably it's a matter of constitutional law and the maintinence of the citizens constitutional rights, but don't quote me on that.

    Sorry, I do have to quote that. The US Bill of Rights protects US citizen's rights to privacy.

    Availability of information to the likes of No Such Agency does not logically imply that your elected representatives are any better informed about the state of world events than the service staff at your local McDonalds outlet.

    Sure, I guess I can't prove that the NSA isn't keeping information from elected officials. But the funding they get demands SOME sort of results. You don't give anybody that type of money without getting something in return.

    On the other hand, I can guarantee that if we don't even bother collect information about world events that we will be ignorant until it's too late.


    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by Betcour on Friday February 11, @03:58AM EST (#195)
    (User Info)
    you can certainly bet that France would spy on YOU if they had the technology.

    Oh yeah, as soon as France builts its first electric generator, we will start designing a prototype that will allow us to communicate over vast distances, with just a wire in between...

    Man you look pretty ignorant. France (or the rest of Europe for that matter) is quite advanced in telecoms, probably more judging by the way the US cell phone works. Don't forget France owns the largest market share of commercial space launching... so they might have some sattelites too.
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:42AM EST (#218)
    And Machiavelli's "The Prince" too.

    I expect and demand that my govenrment spies on everone and everything.

    Fortunately coming from the UK, a country with no written constitution, an unelected upper house, video cameras on every street corner, an enormous (£101) approx $160/year tax on every television set, no right to silence, and an authoritarian "socialist" government whose only principle is to cling to power at all costs, I think I can rest easy.

    Just think yourselves lucky you do not have to deal with "Smiler" Blair. dmg

    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by Nicolas MONNET (nico@nospam.monnet.to) on Friday February 11, @06:25AM EST (#262)
    (User Info) http://monnet.to

    an enormous (£101) approx $160/year tax on every television set

    Do they still play "Neighbours"? If they do, sounds like a good deal to me. Huh huh.


    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:45AM EST (#376)
    Funnily enough, this was one of the few BBC tv shows I ever watched, I watched it solidly from the days of Kylie, up until about a year ago. I don't object to paying for tv shows as such, its the interventionist "we know what's good for you" nanny-state attitude I don't like.

    I'd rather have more control over where the cash is spend. As it stands, the BBC takes my money, and decides what kind of programs to make.

    The government should get out of the entertainment industry.

    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by spiralx (spiralx@removethis.anti-social.com) on Friday February 11, @06:38AM EST (#266)
    (User Info)

    Fortunately coming from the UK, a country with no written constitution, an unelected upper house, video cameras on every street corner, an enormous (£101) approx $160/year tax on every television set, no right to silence, and an authoritarian "socialist" government whose only principle is to cling to power at all costs, I think I can rest easy.

    But I'd still rather live here than in America :)

    P.S. If that is you dmg have you done any decent trolls recently? Trolltalk isn't what it used to be for finding out intersting trolls.


    sig waiting for inspiration.
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @11:32AM EST (#371)
    Why not try checking out the highly 31337 top-secret elite-only hidden troll forum at 31337troll. There you will find a link where the DMG flames Linux for its lack of CEO-friendly acronyms - Nothing you can say will change his mind, and some of these Linux zealots never wore a suit and tie in their lives!!!
    Re:Why hate Echelon? (Score:1)
    by fatpenguin on Friday February 11, @10:02AM EST (#339)
    (User Info)
    Do you really believe that the Americans are the only people who deserve a right for privacy?
    Everytime Americans are affected by ECHELON there is a large uproar. But none of you really cares if your country pisses on the rights of non-Americans. At least they are only babarians, aren´t they?
    Personally, I feel great running around with a spear and crying mystical native words...

    Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses

    Re: Sun Tzu (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:05PM EST (#414)
    Which edition?

    There are dozens, I own the Taoist and the Communist, but I find both ideologically influenced.

    Where can you get a readable, unbiased Sun Tzu?

    elitism (Score:1)
    by Shoeboy (spawn_of_satan@no-spam.microsoft.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:48PM EST (#54)
    (User Info) http://microsoft.com
    I could use having the government pass eschelon info on to me. I don't have the money for it or nothing, but I'll do yardwork for any government official who's interested in hooking me up. Like I used to date this girl who started cheating on me with this guy who she thought was really deep cause he listened to the cure and shit like that. If I'd had eschelon access, I'd have known about it and wouldn't have had to spend a month wondering why all my friends were snickering at me. I'd also like to know why some girls think you're deep just because you listen to albums containing 72 straight minutes of non-stop whining. I don't know if eschelon could help with that problem, but it's much more of a national security (or personal insecurity at any rate) issue than whether or not people buy planes from boeing. Anyway, if there are NSA staffers or CIA operative who have access to eschelon data and need yardwork done, let me know. I have my own leaf blower.
    --Shoeboy
    Kill the Irish!
    That Graham woman (Score:1)
    by GeHa on Thursday February 10, @11:49PM EST (#56)
    (User Info)
    Question is: would he be dumb enough to want to date her?
    ------------------------------------------------------------ If Y2K was the end of the world, what did we fall into then?
    side note (Score:1)
    by xcjohn (the_psycho1@yahoo.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:51PM EST (#61)
    (User Info) http://lenin.nu/~jwhite
    in a totally coincidental turn of events, Heather Graham has been spoted at a local bar with none other than Rob Malda... freaky...
    They call me Little John, but don't let the name fool you...in real life I'm very big. -Robin Hood, Men in
    P-145 documents (Score:3, Informative)
    by jesser on Thursday February 10, @11:52PM EST (#62)
    (User Info) http://www.palosverdes.com/jesse/
    Codenamed P-415 Echelon, the world's most powerful electronic spy system was revealed in declassified US National Security Agency documents published on the Internet, and is capable of intercepting telephone conversations, faxes and e-mails.

    Has anyone managed to find these documents?

    I couldn't find anything mentioning echelon on nsa's public information releases or their list of "high-interest items".

    I found a few sites mentioning echelon and P-415, though. This one mentions P-145 as being around for at least a decade. That site doesn't seem to be an unbiased source, though, because its homepage links to things like this rant about echelon with a really big font.

    This is another site that mentions P-145 and mobile phone monitoring. It contains a document called "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control", a long document which mentions echelon and discusses agreements among various countries regarding sharing of information obtained through echelon-like projects.

    --
    slashdot: I miss my free time, Rob.

    Where to get Declassified government documents (Score:1)
    by rynoamy on Friday February 11, @12:52AM EST (#113)
    (User Info)
    George Washington University maintains what they call a National Security Archive which is an archive of declassified government documents. They include all kinds of juicy stuff: Iran-Contra affair, Bay of Pigs, Cuban Missile Crisis, etc. It's a conspiracy theorist's paradise.

    Anyway, on this list of NSA documents with descriptions I found the following passage:

    The program, codenamed ECHELON, has been described as a global surveillance network that intercepts and processes the world' communications and distributes it among the primary partners in the decades-old UKUSA alliance-the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand

    And this right after it:

    In reality, ECHELON is a more limited program, allowing the UKUSA allies to specify intelligence requirements and automatically receive relevant intercepts obtained by the UKUSA facilities which intercept satellite communications (but not the U.S. facilities that receive data from SIGINT satellites). It is also limited by both technological barriers (the inability to develop word-spotting software so as to allow for the automatic processing of intercepted conversations) and the limitations imposed on collection activities by the UKUSA allies-at least as regards the citizens of those countries. Thus, the NAVSECGRU instruction also specifies that one of the responsibilities of the commander of the Sugar Grove site is to "ensure the privacy of U.S. citizens are properly safeguarded pursuant to the provisions of USSID 18."

    (no, I don't know what the references to the "Sugar Grove site" are referring to, and don't ask me about all those silly government acronyms). Somewhere on George Washington's National Security Archive is where they claimed to have found these documents about echelon. I searched for a while but found nothing concrete. But I was pretty lazy about it. There's no reason to doubt that some juicier stuff is there somewhere, since it looks like it's a pretty big archive.

    And no, I'm not a student at George Washington University (nor am I anywhere near it or in any way associated with it--I just went hunting around their web page looking for this stuff after I read the article).


    --- I've been in school *way* too long....

    Re:Where to get Declassified government documents (Score:2)
    by Detritus (jlimpert@acm.org) on Friday February 11, @01:11AM EST (#124)
    (User Info)
    The Sugar Grove Naval Communications Facility near Sugar Grove, West Virginia is an NSA satellite intercept facility. See this web page for the FAS list of the NSA's facilities.
    Allies spying on one another? NOOOOO!!!!!! (Score:2)
    by Crixus (crixus@NUKE_THIS.email.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:53PM EST (#64)
    (User Info)
    I don't understand this. Allies have been spying on one another for hundreds of years, if not longer.

    Just read The Puzzle Palace, there are many documented cases, and our allies know it, so what's the big deal? They do the same thing.

    Occasionally there are prices to be paid for such actions. In the late 1960's Israel attacked one of our intelligence gathering ships when they realized we were probably listening to them. Dozens of americans were killed and it was essentially buried.

    We go to amazing lengths in our SIGINT (signals intelligence) efforts.

    There was once a project to build a dish antenna (a damn BIG one) for the NSA that was intended to pick up faint radio signals that were being reflected by THE MOON. I believe this project was cancelled. The engineering problems were myriad to say the least.


    ----- "Just because no one in their right mind would wear it, doesn't make it hip."

    Aerospace contracts, not classified information (Score:1)
    by jesser on Thursday February 10, @11:57PM EST (#69)
    (User Info) http://www.palosverdes.com/jesse/
    I don't understand this. Allies have been spying on one another for hundreds of years, if not longer.

    Did you read the article? They're suing because they think Airbus lost a few billion francs to Boeing because the US gave Boeing information about Airbus's bidding strategy that had been obtained through echelon.

    --
    slashdot: I miss my free time, Rob.

    Re:Aerospace contracts, not classified information (Score:2)
    by Crixus (crixus@NUKE_THIS.email.com) on Friday February 11, @01:55AM EST (#152)
    (User Info)
    Did you read the article? They're suing because they think Airbus lost a few billion francs to Boeing because the US gave Boeing information about Airbus's bidding strategy that had been obtained through echelon.

    Yes, I read it. THE PUZZLE PALACE also documents examples where american intelligence gathering agencies used data they had gathered to help american corporations.

    My point was not to refute the article, but to question the SURPRISE that everyone up here seems to be showing about this.

    It's been happening a long time, and their intelligence agencies are helping their corporations also.

    I'm not agreeing with the practice, just talking about it.

    Our intelligence agencies kill people too. We tried to kill Castro. Face it, deal with it, get over it, move on.

    It's going to continue to happen. Don't be shocked next time.

    :-)


    ----- "Just because no one in their right mind would wear it, doesn't make it hip."

    Its just about money. There not pissed (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:07AM EST (#71)
    They just think they copuld get some money, and it makes the US and UK look bad and thats always fun.
    Other than that it's not serious.
    What are they going to do, fart in our general direction???

    Re:Allies spying on one another? NOOOOO!!!!!! (Score:1)
    by Pig Hogger (lugalle@-DOPESPAM-yahoo.com) on Friday February 11, @12:32AM EST (#92)
    (User Info)
    There was once a project to build a dish antenna (a damn BIG one) for the NSA that was intended to pick up faint radio signals that were being reflected by THE MOON. I believe this project was cancelled. The engineering problems were myriad to say the least.
    The one I heard about was about a satellite, whose body is as big as a delivery van, with a parabolic antenna that, deployed, is on the order of 30 meters wide, used to intercept russian microwave links leaks.

    The satellite would be on a geostationary orbit. It must have been no mean feat to put that big a thing that high!!!
    --
    "It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky"
    My father, on the Strategic Defense Initiative.

    Re:Allies spying on one another? NOOOOO!!!!!! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:05AM EST (#159)
    ("It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky" My father, on the Strategic Defense Initiative.) Your father was a butt-boy for the Wehrmacht.
    Re:Allies spying on one another? NOOOOO!!!!!! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:15AM EST (#231)
    "Occasionally there are prices to be paid for such actions. In the late 1960's Israel attacked one of our intelligence gathering ships when they realized we were probably listening to them. Dozens of americans were killed and it was essentially buried."

    The U.S.S. Liberty was the ship. 38 KIA.
    Israel was at war, claimed they couldn't identify the ship as U.S., though they flew several passes over her whilst strafing her.
    serious credibility issue... (Score:1)
    by rootrot (ikahn@SPAMLESSpipeline.com) on Thursday February 10, @11:55PM EST (#68)
    (User Info)
    While I wish France luck and think that their "evidence" should make for fun reading over the next x period of time, I think they have a serious credibility issue.

    This is the same country that used their commandos to BLOW UP and SINK Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior to ends it's interference in their activities . Further, as has been indicated in other posts, they, *like all other countries*, have routinely engaged in whatever corporate espionage presented itself since time immemorial.

    Hypocrisy is an artform...

    I think I am going to go have a glass of champagne...oh, pardon, "sparkling wine" as it is from CA.

    rootrot


    Encryption is the envelope for email...who do you want reading your msgs...

    Re:serious credibility issue... (Score:1)
    by Betcour on Friday February 11, @04:02AM EST (#199)
    (User Info)
    Actually Greenpeace is at the orders of the CIA : they do all mumbo jumbo about the nuclear experiments done by non-US countries, you've never heard them complain about what the US army does. Sunking the Rainbow warriors was just a spy vs spy matter (with some eco-zealots cought between the fires).

    Also last times China did some nuclear test I didn't hear Greenpeace so much...
    Re:serious credibility issue... (Score:1)
    by mwillis (mbw8@cornell.edu) on Friday February 11, @10:40AM EST (#354)
    (User Info) http://members.home.net/mwillis132
    What you say about greenpeace may be true, I have no idea. I have no love for Greenpeace. I take exception with the idea that it was only greenpeace that was against french nuke testing. That's a fallacy of composition designed to get France off the hook, because Greenpeace is a flaky organization lots of people love to hate. It's not just greenpeace that was upset about the French in the South Pacific. Nobody wanted the French down there.

    Some background:

    France is in Europe. It was setting off bombs on the other side of the world. Imagine the outcry if China wanted to set off nukes in the French countryside. The French just didn't care that this part of the world might not like having nukes set off. There is no need for empathy, we are French.

    So, how does France deal with this touchy situation?

    French agents went in and blew up a civilian ship in New Zealand. Saying it was Greenpeace, and the Americans, and they deserved it for messing with France does not make it okay.

    As to Greenpeace not sending protesters into the interior of communist China prior to secret nuclear tests ... do you see why that might be difficult to organize?
    Re:serious credibility issue... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 15, @01:50AM EST (#433)
    You're a moron.

    The area where nuclear tests took place is located 10,000 km far from australia.

    So your argument is null.

    Anyway, it's great that France tested junior nukes in front of the american spies. Now they know french have it too.

    As for those greepeace ayatollahs, they're only dumb people maniplated by american corporations to protect interests of great industrial corporation against non-maerican industries.
    Re:serious credibility issue... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 15, @01:54AM EST (#434)
    France is a democracy, so nuclear tests were not mean to be secret. In addition, greenpeace announced their intention to enter _unlawfully_ a military zone. That is a war act, and the fact that their stinking ship was sunk is not only normal, but it would have been totally abnormal if it hadn't been sunk.

    As for China or India, no protest, even a feeble a posteriori protest, from your greenpeace heroes. hypocrit.

    Echelon 'Proof' Discovered [Wired] (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:01AM EST (#70)
    According to this Wired story, Echelon proof has been discovered in declassified NSA documents. The documents are located here.
    The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:1)
    by Elyas on Friday February 11, @12:21AM EST (#83)
    (User Info)
    The area where this could actually become something is the European Union. France has brought this to their attention, and they are investigating it. England spying on member nations and helping a non-member nation to compete unfairly against other members is not going to be well regarded. Also, the European Union is big enough to be able to make a stink, even if France isn't
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:11AM EST (#165)
    "Ohhh, the Germans are mad at me!" - Montgomery Burns
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:2)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @02:25AM EST (#170)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    At last, someone points this out. It is, I think, the real motivation behind this action. A whole lot of Europeans, not just the French government, are sick and tired of Britain acting as America's whore. Of course, the sensible course of action here would be de Gaulle's, but it's too late for that.
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:46AM EST (#176)
    For years the Europeans themselves have been acting like Moscow's and Beijing's whores, why on earth they so outraged.....backed the losing side and didn't get paid?
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:2)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @02:50AM EST (#178)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    I think this AC should be moderated up to five, to show the shocking state of American education: the sheer ignorance of the average American youngster when he leaves high school is a far more important issue than all this Hellmouth crap.
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:08AM EST (#201)
    Paul, why do you think I'm an American or that I'm posting from the US? I'm not either. I'm the product of a very European education and am posting from about 30km from the German border. Bite me.
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:1)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @04:19AM EST (#207)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    Well, since you're posting as an AC, who knows what you are or where you're from? Or whether you're even the same AC? I'll stand by what I said, though, since no European could have written such drivel as the post I replied to, unless he was trolling.

    s/I'm not either/I am neither/


    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:28AM EST (#214)
    So we're all supposed to think like you? Hmmmm. Paul, perhaps YOUR education is lacking. Have you ever thought about why so many Europeans have left to live in the US (and are continuing to leave)? I bought my house in October from a family leaving for NY. Maybe we our beliefs and values are alittle more diverse than you seem to believe.
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:55AM EST (#273)
    That still doesn't give any validity to the orginal statement Paul was replying to.
    Hmm go on then, give an example. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:04AM EST (#275)
    An example, please, of an EU country doing that. I want something, not sponsored by the US, big enough to match the US denunciation of Taiwanese sovereignty in 1971.
    Who can blame the UK for siding with the US? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:11AM EST (#203)
    After watching France fold like a cheap suit whenever Germany gets an itchy trigger finger, who can blame the UK for wanting an ally with some testicles?

    The funniest part of this story is that while Slashdotters would usually flame ECHELON whenever it was the topic, most of the posts are spent ridiculing France. You've gotta be pretty damn despised to lose a popularity contest against ECHELON. :)

    Re:Who can blame the UK for siding with the US? (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:23AM EST (#238)
    (User Info)
    Er, last time France considered the UK as an ally to defend against Germany, who has fled to defend their own country ?
    Re:Who can blame the UK for siding with the US? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @08:15AM EST (#304)
    Well when you've got panzer armies driving down your throat, a tactical withdrawal to a defensible postion is the best option. In this case Britian. It's an island, and harder to invade. Don't forget, we shipped alot of french forces back. I don't see the Belgians getting so uppity, I mean they got really fucked over, seeing as they were a neutral country with a tiny outdated army!
    I hope the EU does pick on Britain (Score:1)
    by JamesKPolk (multivac @ fcmail.com) on Friday February 11, @03:42AM EST (#189)
    (User Info)
    Maybe if that does happen, it'll help the Tories lead a charge to withdraw altogether.

    I mean, the EU has no loyalty anymore to democratic or republican forms of government... just look at Portugal's treatment of Austria in recent weeks.
    Re:I hope the EU does pick on Britain (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:52AM EST (#223)
    The EU represents the END GAME of world war II.

    It represents the victory of the Franco-German undemocratic socialist/authoritarian tradition.

    The UK is in a very difficult position. On the one hand, it is geographically close to France (about 21 miles) and so must avoid threatening EU interests, on the other hand, its economically closer to the US both in terms of culture and politics. (not close enough IMO).

    There is an irrational hatred of all things "Anglo Saxon" in Europe which cannot be underestimated.

    I am waiting for the predicted "asymmetric shock" which will provoke the breakdown of the EU. Hopefully then the UK can get out of the expensive undemocratic mess that is the EU before it gets in any deeper.

    Of course that will still leave the expensive undemocratic mess that is the UK, but that's another story.

    Re:I hope the EU does pick on Britain (Score:1)
    by JamesKPolk (multivac @ fcmail.com) on Friday February 11, @05:02AM EST (#225)
    (User Info)
    I half-way agree with you.. but one question:

    Don't you agree that Britons, and Americans, also have an irrational hatred of the French? :-)
    Re:I hope the EU does pick on Britain (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:56AM EST (#250)
    We like their women :^)
    Withdrawal from the EU (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:13AM EST (#280)
    Yes, what a good idea. Then we can get back to bashing queers out of the army, flooding villages to make reservoirs, selling arms to dodgy regimes and hanging innocent people. We can also put up enormous trade barriers to ensure that British business gets flabby and uncompetitive at home and has no chance abroad due to being buffetted by fluctuating exchange rates and import tarriffs.

    I think the UK is much more europhobic than the other way round. Instead of fixing the things that are wrong with the EU, British politicians make cheap political capital out of deluding voters into thinking we can be "independent" by withdrawing. In reality we have been reliant on Europe, at least as an economic market, for decades. If we leave the EU it just means we get no say in making the rules for that market.
    Re:Withdrawal from the EU (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:18PM EST (#381)
    bashing queers out of the army, flooding villages to make reservoirs, selling arms to dodgy regimes and hanging innocent people.

    The UK (in or out of the EU) does not have a monopoly on this kind of behaviour, which is not to apologise for it, but to acknowledge the issue at stake here. It is not a question of left/right wing politics. The structure of the EU favours the undemocratic, the technocrat, the appointed comittee, the meeting behind closed doors, the gentlemans agreement, the "horse-trading". The corruption is unimaginable. Take a look at the former EBRD buildings entrance hall if you don't believe me. Over 15 million EURO spent on a marble-clad entrance hall.

    Instead of fixing the things that are wrong with the EU,

    Because they cannot - The problem is with the institution itself. The Germans and French will use their power of veto over anything which upsets the status quo. For example slashing the CAP budget - which loses an estimated 30 billion Euro each year to fraud.

    If we leave the EU it just means we get no say in making the rules for that market.

    We get no say at the moment. Look at the "withholding tax" issue for an example.

    Its not europhobia, more anglophilia, if we want to use loaded terms. Put simply, the EU is an undemocratic, inefficient, corrupt-to-the-core, self-serving gravy train, which bleeds its taxpayers dry in the name of socialism.

    Over 50% of our trade (including invisibles) is with non-EU entities including the US, by your own argument, we have no influence over their market. And yet the UK is the largest external investor in US corporations.

    dmg

    NOOOOOOOOO! I'm Portuguese and disagree (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:53PM EST (#394)
    Look the Portuguese Prime-Minister is agent for foreign groups like the "Internacional Socialista". To make matters worse the President of the Nation is also another Agent. So what these guys do has more to do with their group rather than Portugal interests or points of view. I wished we never gonne into democracy. I miss the Old Empire.
    Re:The big thing in this article is European Union (Score:1)
    by graham_m on Friday February 11, @05:24AM EST (#239)
    (User Info)
    Of course as the UK company BAe is in the Airbus consortium, by helping Boeing the UK government was killong a UK national industry. An industry that the UK government on many occasions has handed out large sums of money to to try and keep it a float. You work that one out then. I speak from the perspective of someone who has lived in a town for 25 years that original had the aircraft industry as its main employer. Its been gone now nearly 10 years and we are only just getting over the shockwave. Putting that aside though Mr Hanks and Mr Speilberg are putting to good use the airfield once again at the moment. There looks like a POW camp and small town are being constructed.
    Funny, eh... (Score:1)
    by Pig Hogger (lugalle@-DOPESPAM-yahoo.com) on Friday February 11, @12:25AM EST (#86)
    (User Info)
    Yankees are very quick to denounce France about individual freedoms, but whenever they are TRULY endangered, either by hare-brained governmental schemes (like Echelon), or by big corporations, guess who is the staunchest parangon of individual liberties?
    Certainly not the country who has Babylon-on-the-Potomac for a capital...
    --
    "It's a ligne Maginot-in-the-sky"
    My father, on the Strategic Defense Initiative.
    Re:Funny, eh... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:47AM EST (#109)
    Free Corsica!
    Re:Funny, eh... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:00AM EST (#252)
    Yankees only live north of the Mason-Dixon Line and in Miami. BTW, you DO know that "Babylon-on-the-Potomac" was modeled on Paris?
    France's Motives (Score:1)
    by zCyl on Friday February 11, @12:31AM EST (#90)
    (User Info)
    Clearly France doesn't actually expect to get any money out of this deal. Negotiations under the table probably went sour, so France has put a small thorn in the side of the U.S. and Britain by drawing mass media attention to Echelon. Projects like Echelon are much less effective, and more despised, when public knowledge of them increases.

    French: Calling the kettle black. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:31AM EST (#91)
    The French Government has a very elaborate Industrial espionage program. I have personally worked for a huge Semiconductor Company here in Dallas Texas (who can it be) where a long term employee at their European HQ in southern France whom I had worked closely with for years , was abruptly fired for being a industrial spy for the French Government.
    Welcome to the real world (Score:1)
    by onyxruby on Friday February 11, @12:33AM EST (#93)
    (User Info)
    Most of the spying that goes on in the world is bears no resemblence to a James Bond style UK vs USSR flick. The majority of information gathering has always been, and always will be for commercial purposes.

    Historical examples abound from Chinas' loss of the silkworm, Englands loss of cotton farming techniques, to Syria's loss of Damascus Steel. Like it or not, commerce has always been the driving force behind most of the worlds history (one could argue religion).

    The point is that nations have always spied on nations, wither they are frinedly or not. Does Echelon really exist? I don't know, maybe, maybe not, but it makes a nice sounding "Big Brother" name. After all it easier to name a program than an individual. Who would ever believe that a single person could make or break a multi-billion dollar deal? Doesn't sound nearly as good as a mysterious international consiparicy...

    Look at the information behind the headlines. France is suffering over 12% unemployment, and those who are employed can't even work a 40 hour work week at one job. France knows they are never going to collect a dime. But if the political leaders over there can blame the evil "foreigners", than they look better. History is full of such examples from Hitler, to the newly elected extremists in Austria.

    You don't hear about most corporate espionage for the same reason you don't hear about 99% of compromised corporate systems, image. If anyone would like a reality check, or a good book to reference, I would recommend "The sword and the shield, the Mitrokhin archive, the secret history of the KGB". (Pub by Basic Books, author Christopher Andrew) The book is very recent and has been endorsed by unique sources. Look behind the headlines, the rest is nothing more than smoke.

    Re:Welcome to the real world (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:17AM EST (#128)
    Welp, Hitler *did* have to deal with evil foreigners. The Jewish-controlled CheKa/ GPU/NKVD had murdered 20 million Christians before *Stalin* started cleaning house. Then there's the matter of the Jewish economic predations against the German people during Weimar. The Jews aren't little angels. They are the biggest predators around (and don't bother calling me a Nazi or an extremist).
    Don't *bother* calling you a NAZI? (Score:1)
    by jcr on Friday February 11, @06:46AM EST (#269)
    (User Info)
    Okay, I'll just call you a pathetic redneck puke. What's wrong, billy-bob? Lose your job for showing up drunk again? Or are you just frustrated because you haven't gotten laid since your sister got big enough to outrun you? Don't you just wish you were back in the joint so some big black man would make a woman out of you again? Give it up, asswipe. The Jews didn't make a loser out of you. You did it all by yourself. -jcr
    Ahh....the French! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:38AM EST (#99)
    They've never forgiven the American's for screwing 2 generations of their mothers, wives, daughters, sisters and girlfriends.....and only paying with candy bars or a pack of Lucky Strikes.
    Re:Ahh....the French! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:52AM EST (#151)
    as an American I can vouch for what AC says, I have fucked a french girl. Her mom was jelous, she wanted some American action too. They love us nice cuddly huge American boys. They see in us the WWII hero that saved their asses. They want hero c*ck, none of this cheezy French crap!
    uuh.... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:47AM EST (#110)
    I thought all this WW was all over. Why do you think 50-80 years later france would sue both countries for somthing they did about 50-80 years ago? I think that could be rediculas.
    Missing the point (Score:1)
    by Tyriphobe on Friday February 11, @12:55AM EST (#115)
    (User Info)
    I'm surprised by the general lack of sense on the posts I've seen so far here, although quite a few of the AC ones are funny...

    Anything like this, which could easily push the whole Echelon project into public knowledge, is a good thing. The fact is that 95 out of 100 people have no idea that it exists, or that it even could. Granted, the French may have a less than distinguished history of industrial espionage, but I somehow doubt that the US or UK are any less rosy. Instead of abusing France, we should be glad that things like this get into the limelight - if the vast majority has no idea that this exists, there will be no opposal to it.

    tyriphobia - fear of cheese

    Ribbit (Score:1)
    by gunner800 (gunner800@yahoo.NOSPAM.com) on Friday February 11, @01:00AM EST (#118)
    (User Info)

    Though I'm all for bringing Echelon to public attention (see my oh-so-witty sig), I'm opposed to this French lawsuit. If it works out, then the French will have done something right, and the universe will unmake itself.

    (I apologize to all the French folk out there, but some of us Americans found that funny)

    -sig-
    So how many ECHELON points did this fetch?

    Keeping an Airbus out of the sky is a Good Thing (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:05AM EST (#122)
    Give the US and the UK a medal. Anything that keeps an Airbus out of the sky is a good thing.

    Slashdotters work on computers, Slashdotters know enough about computers to know that trusting one with your life is just plain dumb.

    The French build (and fly in) Airbusses, therefore the French are dumb. Enuff said.

    All of the newer Airbus designs (A320 family, A330, A340, etc) are fly by wire, computer controlled. Very dangerous machines in my book.

    Over in the aviation newsgroup, we call Airbusses 'Nintendo'.

    Re:Keeping an Airbus out of the sky is a Good Thin (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:28AM EST (#326)
    AFAIK the F16 was the first "fly by wire" jet.
    Following your logic:

    US-Americans build (and fly) F16s, therefore US-Americans are dumb. Enuff said.

    In fact, every *modern* air craft build these days has "fly by wire" control.

    > Over in the aviation newsgroup, we call Airbusses 'Nintendo'.

    Yep, and Boings are usually called 'Windows'.


    Educate yourself before making xenophobic posts (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:31PM EST (#399)
    Read the Book "Cyberwars : Espionage on the Internet" published in English. Or the book entitled "Espionagen no CyberEspaco" published in Portuguese.

    Warning: Don't be a hard believer in Nationalistic propaganda. Remember is just planned brainwashing anyway.

    Educate yourself before making xenophobic posts (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:37PM EST (#400)
    Read the Book "Cyberwars : Espionage on the Internet" published in English. Or the book entitled "Espionagem no CiberEspaço" published in Portuguese.

    Warning: Don't be a hard believer in Nationalistic propaganda. Remember is just planned brainwashing anyway.

    why? (Score:1)
    by imr on Friday February 11, @01:11AM EST (#123)
    (User Info)
    first it puts the echelon discussion at a higher level .(It's always good to tell a friend to stop looking under your lady's dress.)and echelon is something that, if it exists , we can't compete with.[Anyway , when it comes to intelligence , there are two leading countries, US and UK...well for this kind of intelligence anyway. Remember enigma...]

    second there are a lot of undergoing negociations about trade with this world commerce thing. And everybody is playing dirty one after the other (are our cheeses so dangerous for your country ?Just avoid to lit a match near one and there won't be any problem!)

    third it tells UK to be a little more on the europe side and a little less on the US side wich has always been their weakness.Being on the europe side doesn t mean you re against USA ..

    fourth there has always been problems with the US in the plane commerce.US never played fair in that field.(remember the concorde plane. too noisy !!! that was so funny!!).The only positive point I see in the US way to trade is that they re playing as dirty with yourself as with the others.(cf intel attacks via to harm amd)

    fifth airbus is a true commercial success , which is good, a true technical success,wich is even better, and a trully european project , which was a miracle that changed our way to see things."So , it's possible to actually work together!!!!".
    Therefore it needs to be protected at government level.
    my 2 francs

    One Word.... (Score:1)
    by Thumpus on Friday February 11, @01:14AM EST (#127)
    (User Info)
    VICHY
    "My freedom may very well cost you your life."
    VA Linux / Slash-dot Giveaway -- enter today! (Score:1)
    by VA Linux Systems on Friday February 11, @01:20AM EST (#131)
    (User Info)

    As promised, VA Linux Systems will for a limited time be offering special deals on hot VA Linux computers to Slash-dot readers.

    To kick off the promotional offers, we're having a contest drawing on March 1st. The winner will receive a VA Linux Systems StartX SP Workstation with a blazing 400MHz Intel™ Celeron© processer, (approx $908.00 value)!

    Five second place winners will receive a Linux / Slash-dot gift pack, including a "Debian GNU/Linux Box Set" and "Slash-dot" t-shirt (as seen on Copyleft.net), an estimated $40 value.

    Remember, this contest is only open to registered Slash-dot users. Look below for instructions on how to enter.

    In other news:

    • Slash-dot will most likely be "revamped" with a new look and feel before the end of the year. A series of polls will allow registered Slash-dot users to vote for the best-loved features.
    • Rob Malda, also known as Commander Taco, will be writing for a new column on the VA Linux web site where prominent figures in the Open - Source / Linux Community will bring you the latest news and insights on this hot new technlology. Our first issue will feature an interview with Ian Murdock, creator of the popular Debian Linux distribution.

    I must apologize for referring to Mr. Malda as "Captain Taco" in previous statements. I received over a dozen letters from Slash-dotters like yourselves informing me of my mistake, which brings me to this point: I encourage you to let me know your opinions (and correct me if I misspeak). Within a week a special e-mail address will be set up for this purpose. Only together can we make VA / Andover.net successful. Each and every one of you is part of the team.

    Please look for my new weekly newsletter, starting on February 18th!



    Sincerely,

    Larry M. Augustin
    President, Chief Executive Officer and Director
    VA Linux Systems



    ***"VA Linux/ Slash-dot Giveaway" Contest Instructions and Rules

    How to enter: The "VA Linux / Slash-dot Giveaway" contest (hereafter referred to as the Contest) is open to all registered Slash-dot users. To enter, send one e-mail to "service@valinux.com" with this text exactly in the subject (without the quotes): "SLASHDOT GIVEAWAY". The first line of the message body must be your registered Slash-dot username. Notification of winnings will be sent the e-mail address on file in your Slash-dot user profile. You will not receive a confirmation e-mail when you enter. Please do not send multilple entries, as they will be discarded, and e-mail abuse ("spamming") may be grounds for Contest disqualification and/or removal of your ID from Slash-dot.

    Prize drawing: Winners will be drawn from all e-mails received up until the cutoff date of 1 March 2000 at 00:00UTC. Winners are randomly chosen using HotPicker™ software. Winners will be notified of their status by 5 March 2000 by e-mail containing a confirmation claim number. Prizes must be claimed by 31 March 2000.

    Prizes: There is one (1) "First place" prize consisting of one (1) "VA Linux Systems StartX SP Linux Workstation" with 400MHZ Intel Celeron processor, 64MB RAM, 6.4GB hard drive, and the VA Linux OS v.6.0 Software Kit. A 17" monitor, keyboard, and mouse are included. Five (5) "Second place" winners will receive a "Linux / Slash-dot gift pack" containing: one (1) Debian GNU / Linux software box set and one (1) Copyleft "Slash-dot" t-shirt. Estimated value of "First place" prize is $908.00**. Estimated value of "Second place" prize is $40.00**.

    Disclaimer: VA Linux Systems assumes no liability for e-mail Contest entries not received. The Contest is not open to employees of VA Linux Systems and Andover.net, or their immediate relatives. VA Linux Systems reserves the right to reward alternate prizes of equal or greater value, defined by the value estimates stated above. All trademarks are copyrights of their respective owners.

    Other: Note that the Contest is not mentioned on the VA Linux website. To receive a printed copy of the Official Rules, send e-mail to "info@valinux.com" with your mailing address. Please remember that because the Contest's short entry period, you may not receive the printing Rules until after the cutoff date (as defined above).

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    What does this have to do with the topic? (Score:1)
    by Otis_INF (otis@aol.com) on Friday February 11, @04:14AM EST (#204)
    (User Info) http://www.sd.nl/demogl
    Geezzz... I'm reading a list of reactions on the article and suddenly this poppes up. Even with treshold 1. Is this a first glance on the spamflood we'll get every day here? This is as lame as the AC's trolling raisins and gritts.

    And no, I'm not interested in your HW.
    "The Future Has A Startbutton -- S."
    Re:VA Linux / Slash-dot Giveaway -- enter today! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @05:16AM EST (#233)
    I take it that this is an example of your much vaunted "editorial independence"
    Nice try... (Score:1)
    by ShawnP on Friday February 11, @08:39AM EST (#310)
    (User Info)
    Do you seriously think that this will work?

    One, if there was such a contest, it would be on the front page.

    Two, Slash "-" dot?

    SP
    "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." - Voltaire
    encription (Score:1)
    by an_to_nio on Friday February 11, @01:26AM EST (#136)
    (User Info)
    If nothing else, this should at least serve as an incentive to make encription legal in France...
    -- Antonio
    encryption (Score:1)
    by an_to_nio on Friday February 11, @01:31AM EST (#138)
    (User Info)
    er... "encryption", that is
    -- Antonio
    Re:encryption (Score:1)
    by twinpot on Friday February 11, @07:33AM EST (#286)
    (User Info)
    It is legal
    No More Secrets, No More Echelon (Score:1)
    by Chasuk (brilfabex@hotmail.com) on Friday February 11, @01:34AM EST (#139)
    (User Info)
    I say we Open Source EVERYTHING. If we have no more secrets, if every single little act of our governments were laid bare - and I mean all governments, all offices, all of the time - then Echelon and its ilk wouldn't be necessary. Face it, as long as there are secrets, there will be spying. As the people are suppposed to _be_ the government, in the democacies of the world, at least, then it seems sort of stupid to keep secrets from ourselves.

    There are many things that the people have no need, and indeed, no right, to know - whom is giving the President head, for example - but anything that is actually part of the political process should be an open book. Every cent that the government spends should be accountable. Every memo and every record, including e-mail and faxes should be published for the entire public to read. Yes, the voyeuristic bullshit: "I'll be home for lunch dear, have the KY ready," from some horny congressman to his wife should be excluded. Give our public servants carte blanche to delete up to 50 personal references a year (ammounting to no more than, say, 5,000 words), with a panel that examines, randomly, such deletions, to make sure that this generosity isn't being abused. that would still maintain the privacy that everyone deserves, and keep the world safe for the rest of us.

    "The postings of Anonymous Cowards deserve no reply." - Chasuk
    Here's something funny (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:37AM EST (#141)
    A website for the echelon Corporation says.

    Echelon is making it possible for billions of everyday devices in buildings, factories, transportation systems, and homes to be smarter and Internet network connected.

    Network connected I bet. Any of you conspiracy theorists want to bet that this site is just set up by the NSA, to count and trace web searches for echelon.

    Just some food for thought. At the very least Echelon was a poor choice of names for any type of communications company.

    Better then war I guess. (Score:1)
    by Malcontent (malcontent@msgto.com) on Friday February 11, @01:38AM EST (#142)
    (User Info)
    I guess this is better then france declaring war on us. Oh wait a minute maybe not, they actually have billion to one chance of winning a lawsuit.

    Do unto others what has been done to you

    From beyond the grave (Score:1)
    by paul.dunne (paul.dunne@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @02:29AM EST (#171)
    (User Info) http://dunne.home.dhs.org/
    Hey, it's John Wayne!
    USA the silliest country of the planet (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:55AM EST (#153)
    Throw some nuclear neutron bombs on the echelon listenning devices, and we don't talk any more about that english fellony.... Europe über alles (especially with Austria...)
    Re:USA the silliest country of the planet (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:05AM EST (#160)
    Exactly what are you talking about?
    Re:USA the silliest country of the planet (Score:1)
    by prisoner on Friday February 11, @08:39AM EST (#311)
    (User Info)
    Unfortunately, nobody else in the vicinty will be able to do a whole hell of alot either. Neutron bombs have a rather wide area of influence....
    this is about embarassment (Score:1)
    by teasea (teasea at relay point dot net) on Friday February 11, @02:05AM EST (#158)
    (User Info)
    Politics, people. the French have chosen to create a large public broo-ha. They win just by stateing the facts publicly.
    Politics is like trying to screw a cat in the ass. -- Bukowski
    In your face, USA! ;-) (Score:1)
    by Bartmoss on Friday February 11, @02:20AM EST (#168)
    (User Info) http://nils.jeppe.de/
    Well the french probably won't have much luck against the USA; except maybe to prove they (the US) is really a fascist nation and NOT a true friend of us Europeans. However I bet the case is different with the UK, who afterall is a member of the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if Echelon violates at least a dozen European laws (Privacy Protection laws immediately spring to mind).

    Remember, folks, here in Europe it's illegal to spy on the citizens without reasons. And just because the US is slowly being transformed into a dictatorship of total surveillance doesn't mean the rest of the world will have to follow.

    Where were you when they took freedom of speech away from the Net?
    -- "Bite my shiny metal ass." -- Futurama
    Re:In your face, USA! ;-) (Score:1)
    by prisoner on Friday February 11, @08:40AM EST (#312)
    (User Info)
    Only if Al Gore is elected...:)
    Re:In your face, USA! ;-) (Score:1)
    by bobalu on Friday February 11, @03:38PM EST (#403)
    (User Info)
    > is really a fascist nation

    Well at least we don't tell our citizens they're not allowed to watch too many French movies! There certainly are groups here who tend towards fascism, and fortunately many of us vote against them. There are also groups that tend towards anarchy, and they occasionally get their way too. We're a BIG country with a lot of people, and you can still drive from one end to the other without being bothered. (Unless maybe you're a black man in a nice car. That's another story.)

    > and NOT a true friend of us Europeans

    I really didn't want to bring this up, but this is kind of a funny remark from a guy in a country that tried to take over ALL of Europe. Twice! I have news for you, if we wanted to own Europe we could have done so already.

    > here in Europe it's illegal to spy on the citizens without reasons

    It's illegal to spy on US citizens without reasons here too. We have laws against it, the NSA is NOT allowed to do it and to give the individuals who work there the benefit of the doubt I'm certain most of them take that seriously. We also have the ACLU to vigorously sue the government when they go too far. Too often law enforcement is over-zealous. The FBI and Martin Luther King, for instance, or the LA cops that planted evidence and even shot people. Note they're now on trial. Nothing's perfect, but the fight goes on.

    > dictatorship of total surveillance

    Agreed! Unfortunately, there are many here (as in other countries) who seem to be willing to give up their freedom to catch the "bad guys". If this wasn't being fought everyday by independent journalists, the ACLU, etc etc it would've happened already.

    The revolution will NOT be televised.
    Umm.. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:45AM EST (#175)
    People who are now saying that France is full of crap and it's ridiculous for them to sue forgot one thing:

    What people in Europe communicate or don't communicate is none of USA's goddamn business. Period.
    Makes me wonder (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @02:47AM EST (#177)
    Hi, I'm Phil, yawning from France at 08.25 am local time.

    Appart from /. and the Times, I didn't find anything about this story anywhere, especially on the french newsservices. It puzzles me a little ( the story ..and the lack of news, but that is probably just laziness ...).

    The Echelon program became a public secret here some 6-7 months ago when the infamous European Parliament repport IC2000 (found at http://jya.com/ic2000.zip ,938k ) became known. There was some mainstream-media outrage about it 2-3months ago that went barely noticed and that didn't ellicit any understandable reaction.

    This article surprises me: it was completely unanounced (normal for a lawsuit but not for a significant international policy affair), there was not even a hint of the usual best_ennemy/worst_friend waltz between U S of A/France in several weeks. It seems to me ( but I can be dead wrong) that if this lawsuit is not bogus, it is some kind of noise made by a politician lacking audience. It looks like this affair is essentially aimed at the local public, playing on the "we were stolen, our jobs are endangered, look, there they are, stop ,thief ! " chord. I strongly doubt that there is any kind of interest for the civic liberties elsewhere than in the PR guy speech, or I don't know my politicians ...

    By the way, what is this funny story about french spies spying on the US ? What everybody knows here is that YOU are spying on us: there was a bunch of CIA people expulsed during last year (i don't remember when exactly), but WE don't do no spying, nosireee, there was never anything looking like that said in the news here.
    well, maybe some media people got something a little wrong or forgotten , somewhere ...

    It will be interesting to follow this affair.
    Have a nice day.
    French Persons! (Score:2)
    by Greyfox (nride@uswest.net) on Friday February 11, @02:51AM EST (#179)
    (User Info)
    Give us the grail or we shall take your castle by force!

    Someone had to put all that chaos there!

    Re:French Persons! (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @05:18AM EST (#236)
    (User Info)
    send la vache !
    Pffft! (Score:1)
    by RasputinAXP (l.y.d.e.n@e.l.v.i.s...r.o.w.a.n...e.d.u) on Friday February 11, @09:45AM EST (#331)
    (User Info)
    I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-King!

    You and all your silly English KNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNniggits!

    I don't want to talk to you no more you empty-headed animal food-trough waterer!

    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
    --
    42 is the answer. What's the question?
    Sueing for breach of promise et al... (Score:1)
    by MosesJones (steve@DeSpamnetworked-gaming.co.uk) on Friday February 11, @03:56AM EST (#194)
    (User Info) http://www.networked-gaming.co.uk

    This could start an interesting trend (ignoring for a moment that Airbus are also part owned by a British company) after suing for spying goverments could then move over things like breach of promise (notably the promise that the US gave to reduce green house gas emissions)

    The lawyers must be having a field day.
    The easiest way to get shot is to carry a gun -- Atticus Finch
    The great redneck come out (Score:1)
    by bartok on Friday February 11, @04:06AM EST (#200)
    (User Info) http://www.citeweb.net/montreal/
    I am very surprised to read so many defensive responses to this post. All of a sudden, the French are evil for this and that reason and people are weighting the probabilities of France going to war with countries who signed the UK-USA treaty. It is SHOCKING to read so many allusions to the fact that the US could kick France's ass by using either the NATO or the WTO!?!

    Seems to me that all of a sudden, a lot of people are changing hats. This is such a redneck attitude. Yes, it IS true that ALL countries are actively using intelligence and counter-intelligence services and that, in a way, it's very hypocritic from the French government. BUT, in no way should these implicit facts serve as an excuse to legitimize spying with such "in your face" means. Or in other words, if you get caught with you hand in the bag, "get it the fuck out of there" (yeah, yeah, bad word). Keeping it there and saying that it's known others do it is not a valid excuse.

    I will always remember this post as "The great redneck come out".

    Re:The great redneck come out (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:47AM EST (#221)
    Nobody's been calling France evil over this matter. They've been calling France stupid and hypocritical for the lawsuit. Nobody likes a whiner who sues somebody for successfully doing something that France has tried to do in the past.

    Oh yeah, and trust me: the United States needs neither NATO's nor the WTO's help to thoroughly kick France's ass. I've seen trained dogs roll over with more difficulty than the French armed forces.

    Re:The great redneck come out (Score:1)
    by T-Punkt on Friday February 11, @08:53AM EST (#317)
    (User Info)
    BTW: France as nation (the French government etc) is not involved *AT*ALL* in this lawsuit. So people calling France stupid and hypocritical because of this must be *really* stupid since they can't even read and understand a short fragment of text.

    -- I don't need no stinkin' signature
    Re:The great redneck come out (Score:1)
    by bartok on Friday February 11, @11:14AM EST (#365)
    (User Info) http://www.citeweb.net/montreal/
    The US may not need the NATO or WTO but both have been levegaged by it to bully other countries - economically or otherwise. But unfortutunately for you, kicking's France's ass is not the point. Heck, shouldn't the fact that you have much power imply that you use it with responsability?

    As in Star Wars's empire, American foreign policies have all the arrogance and bullyness of imperialism at it's worse and it is no wonder it finds so few protests inside the country. (The average mind being told what to think by the corporate media) You people (the rednecks only) should get over the fact that you helped France in WWII. Movies about WWII like Saving Private Ryan are good to steer up nationnalism and in giving you the impression that you were kicking germany's ass.

    Unfortunately, as much as Hollywood would like to rewrite history, or at least hide facts, Hitler's ass was kicked by the Russian army. This eternal patting in the back about WWII is ridiculous.

    The only war that's being fought now is WWIII and it is an economical and information war where only corporarions win. Such bickering between two nation's citizens is only heping the powers that be (multinationnal powers) to do whatever they want. In a global economy, citizens gotta develop a global solidarity and free themselves of the restrictive nationalist mind sets of cold war propaganda.


    Revisionism? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:53PM EST (#387)
    Unfortunately, as much as Hollywood would like to rewrite history, or at least hide facts, Hitler's ass was kicked by the Russian army. This eternal patting in the back about WWII is ridiculous.

    Whew! Talk about revisionism! Back to school for you.

    The truth of the matter is that Germany opened too many fronts. Had Hitler (Godwin's doesn't apply in this context, btw) had the good sense to leave Russia alone for the nonce ("nonce" being defined as: until after Germany had finished locking-down Europe--particularly G.B.), things would have likely gone much differently. One might argue that had Hitler even paid attention to his advisors wrt the down-sides of attempting to invade Russia during the winter, he might have pulled it off.

    And had Germany just a bit more in the way of resources to throw at those pesky Russkies, they might not have made it through the winter. Had the U.S. not joined the effort, those needed resources would likely have been available.

    Germany was defeated by a combination of things. But in the final analysis: Germany was defeated by itself. Less ego and more realistic strategies would almost certainly have won the day.

    Side note: even had Germany planned more realistically, could it have actually ever succeeded in conquering Russia? A nice mental exercise. In the short term: probably so. In a kind of geographically-limited kind of way. But Russia is a big place. And the Russian people are nothing if not tenacious. I think it was a bad bet from the start, all things considered.

    Re:Revisionism? (Score:1)
    by bartok on Sunday February 13, @12:35PM EST (#430)
    (User Info) http://www.citeweb.net/montreal/
    I totally agree with you. What I meant in my post was that some american movies tend to portray you guys as the saviors of Europe. Yes, your help was greatly appreciated but it's not like you did all the work. And my point about Russia is that the most decisive battles have been fought on the eastern germany front.

    The role of the russians was mostly ignored in north america because the cold war started right after WWII and both the US and Russia started demonization campaings against each other. I'm sure there are still more people in the US today that call communism evil than people who actually know what it is. (I'm not defending communism here)

    random ramblings... (Score:1)
    by fingal (alex.fiennes@sStPyArMaNx.cOoTm) on Friday February 11, @04:20AM EST (#208)
    (User Info)
    did a little bit of searching about what this whole airbus thing is about and found this article on Echelon which says:-

    NSA: America's Fortress of Spies Part one of The Sun's NSA series, Baltimore Sun, 1995
    "From a commercial communications satellite, NSA lifted all the faxes and phone calls between the European consortium Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi government. The agency found that Airbus agents were offering bribes to a Saudi official. It passed the information to U.S. officials pressing the bid of Boeing Co. and McDonnell Douglas Corp., which triumphed last year in the $6 billion competition."

    and then I found this article which is far too long to quote here but includes some interesting points including:-

    It’s also fascinating to see that the UK didn’t react when the NSA eaves dropped on the Airbus consortium (partly composed by a British industry) for the benefit of one of its American competitors . Even when her interests are concerned, the UK doesn’t hesitate to serve her big brother or hypocritically close her eyes...

    and then I noticed another rather strange thing in the same article, namely:-

    Echelon members :

    • USA: NSA National security Agency
    • Great-Britain: GCHQ Government communications head quarters
    • Canada: CSE Communications security establishment
    • Australia: DSD Defense signals directorate
    • New Zealand: GCSB Government Communications Security Bureau

    How come the French are only hassling the UK and the US? It all seems a bit confused to me...

    I also heard (but cannot track down any links at this point) that the methods used to extract the information about the airbus negotiations used the NSA backdoor keys into the Lotus Notes 'secure' email system. Maybe in the light of the recent story about commission policy and the fact that there is a directive currently being worked on concerning the legalities of encryption in the EU may well lead to some interesting policies in the future for NSA 'enhanced' exported software. (here is an essay detailing some of the issues being considered)

    It's about time (Score:1)
    by Sri Lumpa (rousseauj1SP@Myahoo.com) on Friday February 11, @04:20AM EST (#209)
    (User Info) http://www.opendvd.org

    It's about time a nation complained about being economically spied by other government.

    That a company spy another is one (bad) thing, but that a GOVERNMENT AGENCY spies over companies is much different.

    Of course France is unlikely to gain any money back with this but if at least it helps raise the awareness in the population this would be good. I must also say that one thing they can do against it is make crypto free (it still is more restrictive than the US :(), this would help.

    BTW, this didn't stop Airbus to take the #1 spot this year if what I have heard is true.

    We Rock (I'm French) ;)

    "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates, The Road Ahead, Viking Penguin (1995)
    Civil suit. (Score:1)
    by AftanGustur (rikardur@delete.sky.fr) on Friday February 11, @04:26AM EST (#213)
    (User Info) http://195.115.13.16/

    The reason that France has decidet to bring a civil suit agains UKUSA is simply that the laws here in France seem to protect the individual no-end.
    F.ex if you wreck your car 10 times in a row and no insurance company wants to touch you with a 10 foot pole, there is a special agency that will *force* the insurance company you choose to insure you. (NOT kidding !)
    Bringing a civil suit against UKUSA, in France is a sure-win.
    --
    Why pay for drugs when you can get Linux for free ?
    echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb15CB32EF3AF9C0E5D7272C3AF4F2snlbxq'|dc

    Stop nationnalism (Score:1)
    by zanONi (mejnour@bigfoot.com) on Friday February 11, @04:37AM EST (#217)
    (User Info)
    I usually find comment and replies on /. pretty good. But when it cames to matter about the actions of one country that is not the US, you guys become *very* unfair.

    Every country uses it's agent for protecting and helping it's biggest company. But you can't even think that France can represent a serious threat to US and countries involved in Echelon. France military budget is a very few percents of the Pentagon's one. And funds for "spies" is a little percentage in it. France shares only one military sattelite with some europeans countries.

    I really think spying is not a good thing. Indeed, it is most obviously a bad thing. So we should lower our nationnalist premade point of view. In fact there is no rules in spying, the only rule is to not use murder when spying a friendly country.

    We all do know about Echelon, and we all find it bad. If it was good it would have been submitted to the congress, but it is completly out of control for the american People. I really support any action against Echelon and do not consider it as attack aimed to harm, if Echelon could be put under democratic control, we - all of us on earth - could win more privacy.

    Since we all speak to each other without any knowledge of the other's country, race, religion we should consider things that makes us the same -Free Software, Technology... -rather than thing that divides us. "Stuff that matters".
    Oh great (Score:1)
    by codemonkey_uk (codemonkey_uk AT hotmail (yes yes I know)) on Friday February 11, @04:45AM EST (#219)
    (User Info)
    The lawyers will be laughing there asses off. They are the only ones who have anything to gain from this. And guess who's paying? Me. The tax payer.

    Thad

    Re:Oh great (Score:1)
    by loudici (oget@nospam.liafa.jussieu.fr) on Friday February 11, @07:05AM EST (#277)
    (User Info) http://zorba.frogspace.net/
    well I do not think the french govt will have to hire lawyers. There are already more than a bunch of lawyers working for the state and they get ^aid whatever happens, so they might as well work!!

    Dr Lolo
    ---
    Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros
    Oh bugger, I've lost the key ... (Score:1)
    by threaded on Friday February 11, @04:48AM EST (#222)
    (User Info) http://www.threaded.com/index.html
    RÉLTN ATDTR PREEL REMAS CRLTS IENNN TMVNE RSEPP SSRPN OIGON QEEEG IPENx SxOxO OUÇOB IxILS xLMCA EAE1S AEIÉA TTTCE OSIMC CSTES NSISR T3SET IEOEx SxDxI xFAMM SOELE OD5NL TAUSN SECLN LÇARS PGÉET NUPÈA RUNCx OATAT FEESI AQDEE BEPEE NDT3R DULT9 UOEUS AAÉTR RIRPS EIEST IFTxR xNxIE VAÉDI xN9AR ÉNSSC SETEL DSARU IERET DRATL ASTME LxLxA RUSIC UUAAE MA5RI ABEAF xELÊA LUSNE xNISN SNIUÉ RÊ5IF ÈICSA EQISE PPDEM USxUx ENTAE MTVUÉ UOSFO SRRUN SLODE xOLCI EÉRCC TLERP UDSCL OSAMV LSExN UROÉT LDNII UGLOL IRNAS ISxMx ExRxI IEISE DRDAO DVFLE LSISU MOTNS TxVNI IRONT LÉAxL ERVRD TxHUO AIERP

    Good, Quick, Cheap: Choose Two.

    Can't pay won't pay! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:04AM EST (#253)
    The French won't get any cash from the US. The States can't even afford to pay their UN contributions.
    Re:Can't pay won't pay! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:43AM EST (#267)
    Can't afford lol. The average american throws
    away more money on beer, Royal Rumber Pper Views,
    Computer Games, Left over food etc.. than a french bastard makes all year.
    And that just the people not the GOV.

    we got money but we won't give you any.

    Cant afford, lol.
    Re:Can't pay won't pay! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @07:11AM EST (#279)
    Can't afford lol. The average american throws away more money on beer, Royal Rumber Pper Views, Computer Games, Left over food etc.. than a french bastard makes all year.

    All that money obviously makes you a very SMART person.

    what is going on here? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @06:25AM EST (#263)
    Isn't this interesting news? Why (and how) did this particular discussion turn into WW3 - France vs. The World (e.g the US)?
          Is this really Slashdot, or did I simply mistype the URL and ended up on some homepage containing the last DALnet #chatzone log?

    seems like the latter.
    Re:what is going on here? (Score:1)
    by T-Punkt on Friday February 11, @08:46AM EST (#314)
    (User Info)
    I'd say it's more US vs. The World (e.g. Airbus).

    -- I don't need no stinkin' signature
    France? No kidding? (Score:1)
    by jcr on Friday February 11, @06:50AM EST (#270)
    (User Info)
    While I'm all for anyone suing to get echelon shut down, the french government is far from the ideal plaintiff for this kind of thing.

    Do they really want all the victims of French espionage to sue *them*?

    Oh, well. Glad I'm not a French taxpayer.

    -jcr
    Re:France? No kidding? (Score:1)
    by loudici (oget@nospam.liafa.jussieu.fr) on Friday February 11, @07:39AM EST (#290)
    (User Info) http://zorba.frogspace.net/
    It is NOT the french government suing. So on this regard i do not mind being a french taxpayer.
    ---
    Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros
    Who is Heather Graham (Score:1)
    by Gery (Gernot.Bauer@jk.uni-linz.ac.at) on Friday February 11, @07:30AM EST (#283)
    (User Info) http://www.esh.uni-linz.ac.at/~mother
    Well, Rob. I think we all would love to see you "DATING" (but keep us informed, ok? ;).

    But could somebody please tell us non-us-slashdotters who Heather Graham is? (Wasn't she mentioned on South Park as well???).
    ------------------------------
    Gery Bauer The answer is yes, me.

    Not the french Govt. (Score:1)
    by loudici (oget@nospam.liafa.jussieu.fr) on Friday February 11, @07:33AM EST (#285)
    (User Info) http://zorba.frogspace.net/
    Read the article.

    It is NOT the french government suing. It is a civil class action. Of course they won't get their money back. But if they do formally win the lawsuit it will be a BIG incentive for companies to use encryption AND it will make it hardly possible for the government to pass laws restricting the use of encryption.

    Just think of it. Which MPs can vote for a law that prevents companies to protect themselves against USUK spies? Specially if they have a court ruling that they indeed have been spied on, and that they could not get their money back despites the ruling.

    Laurent
    ---
    Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros
    Surprisingly not in the french newspapers (Score:1)
    by loudici (oget@nospam.liafa.jussieu.fr) on Friday February 11, @07:44AM EST (#292)
    (User Info) http://zorba.frogspace.net/
    I wonder why this lawsuit made it to the news in a british newspapers and not in the french ones. It was not in Le Monde last night nor the night before. And Le Monde does have a lot of briefs. Would this lawsuit be a media coup aimed at british taxpayers who pay for a spying system that spies on Airbus, which is an european consortium, and hence has british employees? Dr Lolo
    ---
    Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros
    Re:Surprisingly not in the french newspapers (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @08:08AM EST (#301)
    (User Info)
    It does not seem like the UK government gives a sh*t about Airbus. British Airways, which has always been a notorious UK govt puppet, has long refused to buy any Airbus (as El Al did after Albright came to publicly threaten the israelis to stop US aid if they did buy airbus). They are trying to make a transition to an alliance with Boeing, especially since BAe Systems has become a very minor participant in Airbus when the other companies of the consortium have decided to merge.

    I'm personnaly sorry of that and have some nostalgy of the times when the UK and French aeronautics industries could do great things together (e.g. Concorde and many common military programs in the 60s). The Germans are much more difficult to stimulate and do not have more ambition than the British have now for this sector, but at least they feel that there interests are common to ours and not to the US's, and their public opinion is not manipulated by constant insulting anti-French flame by tabloid newspaper.
    Pot, kettle = black (Score:1)
    by DrXym on Friday February 11, @08:01AM EST (#299)
    (User Info)
    It's extremely hypocritical for France to accuse anyone of spying since it spies on and monitors it's neighbouring and competing nations too.
    Airbus means Europe Interests (Score:1)
    by Vandenzob on Friday February 11, @08:21AM EST (#305)
    (User Info)
    Airbus doesn't just means French, it also means work for all the parties involved in it, (subcontractors, suppliers) mostly other european countries. We live in the European Union and projects of that size are distributed amongst partners. So you should maybe re-read the fact as: "Trade War: US abuses its military powers to deliver major blow to the European industry" But wait, there is much better... Since Boeing, very close to be a monopoly, has been the sole beneficiary of this information they have thus been given an unfair advantage over other american companies in that deal. The US goverment has taken side in its choice and violated the basic rules of free market. This thing is way more serious than a little cultural feud. France took a stand, but there are 11 other countries in Europe that actually have the same thing to say or who will have their own gripes about it. Who is next to follow suit? The only sour thing is maybe the position the UK is in. They took a major part with France in building The Concorde, they suffered the same resistance by the US when the project went on (bickering about the plane specs and tons of propaganda to ban the plane from US airports) and they took side by going on with it. Still if there is a litigation between UK's pretty dynamic free industry and the US, their own Ministry Of Defence will sell them out and turn their back on them. How many inventions and intellectual properties have been stolen like that from the UK my british fellows? What does their government do about it... Well what can it do? :> :> But I disgress here. This post and other threads in this topic are also available from the Echelon Project Press in both hardback and soft cover format, Fort Meade, Virginia, USA or from it's subsiduary branch the MOD, London, UK for those of us oversea. BTW... Will they make those files public in 20/40 years like the FBI has to or do we have to storm the place like East Germans did with the STASI?
    France's chances (Score:1)
    by mir on Friday February 11, @08:32AM EST (#307)
    (User Info) http://members.bellatlantic.net/~mirod
    >Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating.

    That's what people were saying 20 years ago when a bunch of French villages sued Amoco for the Amoco Cadiz oil spillage. They eventually (it took about 10 years I think) won. Big! A couple hundred million dollars.

    So who knows, maybe it'll work this time too.

    As for the British they'd really need still to figure out whether they're part of Europe (and Airbus!) or still an American colony.

    Michel
    People are people (Score:1)
    by Steel Chicken (spamisgay@infoagecorp.com) on Friday February 11, @08:46AM EST (#315)
    (User Info) http://www.infoagecorp.com/sc_home.nsf
    "People are people so why should it be
    that you and I should get along so awfully?"

    Spying has always been a part of inter-governmental relations(ally or not)...get over it, or do it better than we do.

    I dont think governments are the enemy, but rather corporations. Consumerism/greed will be the end of us all.

    Oh, and by the way, piss on the UN, and the WTO, and the MPAA, and the ...

    - Inbred Redneck American

    -- A Human Being is nothing more than mobile CO2 factory. Bow to the plants.
    But you forget one important point... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:13AM EST (#324)
    ...corporations generally don't have tanks.

    Re:But you forget one important point... (Score:2)
    by Steve B (steveb@NoPinkStuff.Radix.Net) on Friday February 11, @10:37AM EST (#352)
    (User Info) http://www.radix.net/~steveb
    corporations generally don't have tanks

    More fundamentally, all the evils generally ascribed to corporations rely upon government as a facilitator (e.g. to take the most recent example described on /., abuse of copyright law requires the government to go along with the abusive interpretation and enforce it). On the other hand, the evils of government do not rely on corporations at all; some of the most evil governments in history did not allow the existence of private capital at all.

    Hence, the root of the problem is at the government level.
    /.
    If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.

    Patriotic Geeks? (Score:1)
    by pngwnpwr on Friday February 11, @08:59AM EST (#318)
    (User Info)
    Who are these people who will defend the actions of their respective governments at any cost? Some people are very quick to jump all over the government when their own liberties are at stake, but wil defend them to the end when they trample the rights of a foriegn power. Another thing: no single country was capable of winning WW1 or WW2.
    France != French (Score:1)
    by T-Punkt on Friday February 11, @09:10AM EST (#323)
    (User Info)
    Thank you for making "France sues" out of Times' "French to sue" headline, Hemos.
    This is good journalism!

    That's about the same as writing (say) "USA has killed peoples in Rome" instead of "Americans have shot two men in Rome".

    And now we have the usuall France-is-stupid-and-USA-is-the-greatest-nation-on-earth-and-can-and-will-do-everything-th ey-want
    type of discussion.

    -- I don't need no stinkin' signature
    Reinvent the Russell Tribunal (Score:2)
    by David A. Madore (david.madore@ens.fr) on Friday February 11, @09:43AM EST (#329)
    (User Info) http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/

    Obviously you cannot sue the United States before any human court in this world. France can sue the United Kingdom in a court of the European Union, but it cannot sue the United States. The United Nations have been able to set up tribunals, notably to judge war crimes such as those that were committed in Bosnia, but it evidently cannot judge a state that is permanent member of the security council.

    Only one court has been able to judge and condemn the United States, and that is the Russell Tribunal, during the Vietnam War. The Tribunal had no authority other than moral, but it did have very much prestige, and its role in bringing out fact to the public eye was of great importance.

    This story about France sueing the US and the UK is a farce. However, it may be possible for a small group of individuals with enough prestige (say, the Electronic Frontier Foundation) to set up a special tribunal to judge that sort of matters. The tribunal's verdicts would not lead to any kind of punishment, but they would lead to public awareness, which is, after all, the most important thing.

    Re: legally possibly (Score:1)
    by Submarine (monniaux@millet.ens.fr) on Friday February 11, @11:43AM EST (#375)
    (User Info) http://www.di.ens.fr/~monniaux
    I would not be so sure that France would no have no legal ground. Eavesdropping is a felony (article 226-15 of the penal code), and using informations yielded by a felony is a felony (article 321-1). As it was part of an organized scheme, this possibly carries a 10-year sentence and a fine of FRF 5,000,000 (yes, that's about 900 000 US dollars!), with civil penalties on top of that.

    I am not a lawyer, but:

    Airbus could thus perhaps sue Boeing, or its executives, in France for using informations yielded by eavesdropping. If sentenced, bank accounts or properties belonging to Boeing could be seized.

    There is little probability that this would happen. There is a long history of spying between NATO allies, and usually all conflicts are solved by discreet informal agreements between governments.

    UNGREATFUL FRENCH (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:53AM EST (#336)
    You know, one would think that the French would be a little more greatful to the US. I mean we have only restored their soverienty twice in the past 100 years. The British, I could understand the French being pissed at at them. The British just sat on their butts and watched the France go down in flames.

    Well, I don't know maybe they all wish they where still speaking German. You know, like good little Nazi slaves. France needs to grow up and stop whinning. If they have a problem with the US and the British. They should follow US & British example conduct air-raids and drop bombs on someone. But stop whinning!!!!!!!

    Re:UNGREATFUL FRENCH (Score:1)
    by Submarine (monniaux@millet.ens.fr) on Friday February 11, @11:31AM EST (#370)
    (User Info) http://www.di.ens.fr/~monniaux
    > hey should follow US & British example conduct
    > air-raids and drop bombs on someone.

    France was as far as I know the second contributor (behind the US) to the air war in Kosovo, and has supplied plenty of ground troops. France has already lost several soldiers in peacekeeping operations in Bosnia.

    Oh, by the way, learn English:
    whinning -> whining
    ungreatful -> ungrateful.

    FRANCE?! hahaha (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @09:55AM EST (#338)
    France is itself deep in shit for planting bugs in the first class seats on their airlines thus spying on diplomats/businessmen.
    Re:FRANCE?! hahaha (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @10:22AM EST (#346)
    (User Info)
    Last time I was in the US I saw this show on Fox that shows tapes taken by employers of their emplyees with hidden cameras.

    So this first class seats stuff is just about Air France trying American-style management and making sure the people that clean the plane do not talk about stealing headsets or newspapers left by the passengers :>
    Book on French Spying on US Firms (Score:1)
    by Zoop on Friday February 11, @10:17AM EST (#343)
    (User Info)
    A college prof of mine was interviewed for a book that discussed the spying activities of the U.S.'s "allies" for commercial advantage (he's an expert on Japanese affairs).

    The book is Friendly Spies by Peter Schweizer.

    He opens (IIRC) with a description of the French DGSE team out in Washington state woods, using sophisticated radio equipment to intercept telemetry from the early Boeing 767 tests. He basically goes on to say that not only do they do it, but the Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Germans, Israelis, and just about anyone else you can think of do it.

    His argument was that the U.S. should both combat and engage in just the same type of spying. The problem, according to a former CIA employee I once talked to (former head of the intelligence directorate), is that even if you got over the legal restrictions placed by Congress on that type of spying, who do you give the information to? At the time of the French allogations, Boeing still had competitors in the US commercial aviation industry. If you get information on French Telecom's bid on a Brazilian phone system, do you give the information to AT&T, MCI, Southern Bell, etc.?

    Just one more argument against nationalized companies, IMO. It helps quell this sort of behavior on all sides.
    WE ARE ALREADY AT WAR (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @10:32AM EST (#350)
    IF YOU ARE A STUDENT OF HISTORY, YOU WILL KNOW THAT IN THE PAST 200 YEARS, EVERYTIME THERE HAS BEEN SOME SIGNIFICANT BREAKTHROUGH IN COMMUNICATIONS MEDIUMS OR TECHNOLOGY, A MAJOR WAR HAS FOLLOWED AS AN INDIRECT RESULT OF THE COMMON PEOPLE GETTING TO HEAR WORD OF WHAT'S GOING ON ELSEWHERE AT A FASTER RATE THAT THEY DID BEFORE. THIS TIME THE COMMUNICATIONS BREAKTHROUGH IS THE INTERNET, HOWEVER THE WAR IS NOT BETWEEN COUNTRIES THIS TIME, BUT THE WAR IS BEING WAGED BY GREEDY OVERLY_POWERFUL COMPANIES AND THEIR EVIL POLICE_STATE GOVERNMENTS AGAINST THE FREEDOM AND PRIVACY OF THE COMMON PEOPLE. THAT'S A FACT, JACK.
    heh (Score:1)
    by miscellaneous (joyner@-nospam-ovid.tamu.edu) on Friday February 11, @10:43AM EST (#355)
    (User Info) http://www.cs.tamu.edu/people/kjoyner
    i'm all for this, on the "exposing echelon" front, but given that france is notorious for using its intelligence serivice to benefit french companies, the irony is really killing me here...:)


    -k. ^-^ ^D
    The French do the same thing. (Score:1)
    by kevlar (s391724@gettysburg.edu) on Friday February 11, @10:59AM EST (#359)
    (User Info) http://kevlar.cc.gettysburg.edu
    Except, obviously they're very bad at what they do. They have an international spy agency setup to intercept phonecalls, etc. in their own country. I think the French are just looking for an excuse as to why their country produces nothing... I'd blame it on socialism, their 35 hour work week, and the fact that they all smell like crap. (last part is a joke of course ;)
    BlackICE: Not that kind of Crack.
    Re:The French do the same thing. (Score:1)
    by El Cabri on Friday February 11, @11:06AM EST (#362)
    (User Info)
    produces nothing ?

    Er AFAIK we have the fourth GDP in the world.
    Re:The French do the same thing. (Score:1)
    by kevlar (s391724@gettysburg.edu) on Friday February 11, @11:36AM EST (#373)
    (User Info) http://kevlar.cc.gettysburg.edu
    One word: luck.

    ;-)
    BlackICE: Not that kind of Crack.
    No, it's just a lousy jet with tight seats (Score:2)
    by alhaz (alhaz@we.areb.org) on Friday February 11, @11:10AM EST (#363)
    (User Info) http://we.areb.org
    Airbus is always complaining about spies this and spies that. I think they're just jumping on the eschelon bandwagon.

    Frankly, i've been on an Airbus 310, and I'd rather walk. So, my theory is that they lost the deal when someone thought they could get a better jet, the exact number Airbus offered probably didn't play into it at all.


    I used to have a sig, I got tired of it.
    BULL! The French are the biggest Indust. spies! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @12:13PM EST (#379)
    This is such Bull! The French are among the biggest industrial spies in the world! Everyone knows it. Talk about calling the kettle black, the hypocracy! Excuse me while I hurl....blleeeaach!!!
    Pourquoi tant de haine ? (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @01:38PM EST (#391)
    How to explain these hatefull words ? Afraid ? But, why free people can be afraid by this kind of action from civil liberty groups ? Sincerly, I don't understand. P.S. : very sorry for my poor english.
    Re:Pourquoi tant de haine ? (Score:1)
    by datalith on Friday February 11, @05:04PM EST (#413)
    (User Info)
    Porque no?

    Seriously...

    Your English is fine. Your concerns...well, most of the time, at least in my experience the ... discussions we have aren't real hate... but then again, I haven't been here all that long.

    I think the big problem is that, not having an opionion on the immediate problem, its easier to get into calling each other names. And once that starts... nothing is sacred.

    I've read some of the comments and pretty much gave up. We weren't talking about security or rights online anymore-- we were talking about history... and after we (Humanity) started using gunpowder-- I kinda lost interest.

    Back on topic-- Is this a case of Government supported industrial espionage or just good old fashioned industrial espianoge? Inquiring minds would like to know

    On a personal note... my only problem with the French dates back to 1066 and the battle of Hastings and it's more aboutlanguage then conquest. I have enough trouble spelling and the addition of French to the language makes my life interesting. (not that the germanic based 'Olde English' would have been any easier mind you)

    When it doubt, sling mud... er... obfiscate!


    Nationalistic Xenophobic Crap (Score:1)
    by dbeast (fonee@hotmail.com) on Friday February 11, @01:55PM EST (#395)
    (User Info)
    Unbelievable! If echelon was spying on people in the US, and I'm not saying it isn't, there would be nothing but outrage. Instead I see attacks on France and Europe and claims of US superiority. Many of these posts display the shocking level of ignorance of my countrymen. This is about the US government spying on people who have responded in a legal manner that will expose more of the truth than we have now. If what they claim is true and they prove it they deserve to be compensated. If you can prove the French spied on you, please do, you also deserve to be compensated, otherwise stop your ignorant xenophobic ranting. db
    Ha Ha-Echelon...Whatever (Score:1)
    by Listen Up on Friday February 11, @01:57PM EST (#396)
    (User Info)
    I remember a few years ago when a women bought coffee at McDonalds. So as she was driving home she spilled it on herself causing her to get burned. Then she sued McDonalds for millions of dollars.
          Now, if this was on Slashdot there would have been a BIG CONSPIRACY about McDonalds giving super hot coffee to Black Women in an attempt to stop them from eating there in the mornings. This Echelon deal and the French is very much the same. I would personally believe that the French are simply poor businessmen and that they are just really pissed off at the US for hurting their economy. So what better way to hurt the US than to appeal to narrowminded people in this country to believe that the NSA caused this to happen. HA HA HA HA HA. That is great. I think that I am going to sue the NSA for causing me to fail my first interview because they gave my future employer information about me and my competing interviewing in favor of someone else. HA HA HA HA
    Stupid People Shouldn't Breed
    enough,wake up people! (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 11, @04:44PM EST (#410)
    i'm assuming few people know the consequences of the echelon project. i'm shouting to the citizens of usa,to wake up and take a *REAL* look whats going on in the world. your goverment is accused with crimes against humanity..countless! your goverment/media propaganda has surpassed Gebels nazi germany's. real freedom is not freedom of the belly!,full stuffed refrigerators.(60% percent people in India havent eaten good enough for not staying hyngry). in my humble opinion,usa's acts and practices are violating earths,people's rights. dont rest with ease,Rome fell too. let the world take its pace,we dont need a universal cop/soldier. as for your war machine...all you have is rockets and nukes,on foot you're just cowards..read history.ho chi kicked your ass pretty hard, despite your devious war crimes against vietnam. let the people of Cuba and Iraq live in peace. usa's embargo on iraq kills 60 children daily. WAKE UP DAMN IT!
    le clues for some cowards (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 13, @11:11AM EST (#429)
    in response what some idiot said about WWII and the landing in Normandy.... 1) the US probably lost the least amount of troops in WWII. The Germans lost 7 million, the USSR 20 Million, The French and Brits over a couple million (figures for them are not exact). The US lost less than 3/4 million troops in WWII. The US lost more troops in the civil war, than all other wars combined. 2)The US did not get beat by the North Koreans in the Korean war, but by the Chinese, who were backing and providing arms, bases, and troops for the North Koreans. MacArthur had cut through North Korea like it was butter, it was only when he got all the to the Chinese border and was facing 300,000 Chinese troops that things went sour. First, Truman would not authorize the bombing or invasion of China, on account of threats from the USSR. Second, Truman fired MacArthur, thus destroying any real US leadership in the Korean conflict. 3) The US has admitted their policies in Vietnam were flawed. When was the last any other country admitted to flawed policies? not the europeans and their rape of Africa, not Indonesian and their misguided invasions of east timor, not the Chinese over any policy, not Russia over its debacles in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Hungary, East Germany, etc, not the Brits and their screw up in the forced dividing of a secular India into Pakistan and India..etc.. 4) back to Normandy, and yes, if the allies had not been successful, the war would of just took longer. germany would of never won anyway. The Russians had already stopped the Nazis at Stalingrad and were pushing them back..the allies had already kicked the Nazis out of North Africa and were already taking back Italy....The Allies won Normandy because of FUD aimed at the Germans by tricking them in that the invasion was going to be at Calais and not Normandy, so yes, German resistance could of been stronger, but that is war, out maneuvering your opponent. 5) Echleon is bullshit. Think about it rationally. How can the Governments have a system to monitor all communications? just think of the processing power, not to mention what it would take to gather just the data packets off the internet. They do not make switches that big yet...if a few hackers can take yahoo and other big sites down through overloading, what makes you think the governments have the power to process that much info? impossible. Now if they home in on only a few communications, then yes, I am sure they already do that as they have for the past 50 years. Nothing new.

    You scratch my tape, and I'll scratch yours.

     



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