Comment Re:"Gag the Internet" (Score 1) 1172
I can see how you would believe that, and I don't discount the notion completely. But looking as Smith's career, it's clear that he always thought big.
I should specify my intentions: I don't think that I can prove that Smith acted out of altruism. I think the best I can hope to do is offer an alternative reading that also fits the facts. I understood your original argument to be "the man got money and sex, so obviously that was his motive". By showing that he didn't get money and may or may not have gotten sex I think I can convincingly argue that your original position that it's an open-shut case of lust and greed is false. But I can't actually argue that my competing hypothesis is an obvious and unassailable replacement.
I understand that.
It seems that your argument has gained some subtlety as we've progressed (although I'm sure it's only your tone/style that's changed and that you've had the more sophisticated argument the whole time). And I don't really have a problem with this more sublte version. I certainly don't think Smith's reputation is, from an unbiased perspective, beyond reproach. Quite the opposite. There is much in it that looks shady.
So as the questions become more complex my motivation for arguing with you decrease. I think reasonable people can draw disparate conclusions about Smith. I also have to admit that you've clearly done more research than I have on this topic. Mormon apologetics breaks down into roughly 3 categories:
1. early Christianity
2. Book of Mormon/Bible studies (textual analysis of the Book of Mormon itself)
3. early Mormon history
I'm weakest on #3, and I'm not a professional in any of the three categories. I find the first 2 much more interesting. And much less troubling. (I can be honest that I find much in the history of my Church deeply disconcerting.)
I'm not saying that Smith was unaware of his detractors, or even that he was physically separated from them all the time. I'm talking more about the sort of separation that separates you and I. I think he put his enemies into a tiny box marked "people I don't have to respect or listen to at all", and listened primarily to those who told him he was The Lord's Prophet.
I see. Instead of talking about the impact on his happiness you're talking about the impact on his self-perception. I can't really argue with that.
Had you even skimmed those links,
I did read them. I would not disrespect you by ignoring your evidence. It was disconcerting enough that at this point it goes beyond an internet conversation for me and into real-world research. I would like to know actual sources so I can read the information myself.
What you wrote was extremely convincing. As I said earlier, this is not my strong point and from the evidence provided you've clearly won this round. What's more important than winning or losing, however, is that your evidence is strong and therefore has a better claim on reflecting the reality of what happened.
I've heard of "Sacred Loneliness", but I haven't read it yet. I will certainly take the time to do more research into this arena. So, even though it's not comfortable to research this stuff, I have to say thanks for being as well-informed as you have been.
Another thing that I think undermines your argument: why did Smith marry so many, and usually so young?
FWIW, I didn't find this particularly convincing. But honestly, I don't know a ton about the topic. Here's the only extensive article I've read: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Zina_and_Her_Men.html
Anyway, just out of curiosity, what have you read from Mormon scholars responding to the accusations that polygamy was about sex? What have you read from the Mormon perspective about why polygamy was practiced? You seem very well-read on the anti side, I'm just curios what you've read from the Mormon side.
When you're arguing like a hagiography, you can expect some blowback. And I haven't even hit on the really lurid, really implausible accusations against Mormonism.
On the one hand I appreciate that. But on the other hand, come on. Building the temple over secret, underground pentagrams? Virgin sacrifice in the temple? That stuff is just crazy. I certainly get the impression that your focus is myopically on the most lurid take on the Prophet's motivations with little regard to alternative views.
My point is, if she believed that Smith was a fraud, and intended to prove it by bringing out the first translation after Smith produced a replacement, she needn't have made a single change to it. She would be expecting it to be wildly different anyhow, so merely handing the untouched manuscript over would have provided illustration enough.
I disagree entirely. The Book of Mormon simply could not have been written off the top of his head. There is no human being that could dictate those 530+ pages on the fly. I don't know if you've read the book or not, but if you haven't, trust me. This isn't an ode to its literary merits. It's just an extremely complex book in terms of the history it describes and there's no way someone could get it all right without notes. And yet the Book of Mormon's internal narratives is 100% internally consistent. This is in no way evidence that it's true or divine. But it is ample evidence that it had to come from a source text. And if Joseph Smith was not translating, it means he had either notes or (more likely) a full text version to work from. This means that Lucy would indeed have had to alter the text because Joseph Smith should have had little trouble reproducing it if he was a fraud.
Had Smith really had the plates, he would have had little trouble recreating his work.
He would have had little trouble either way, because a source text is essential for a book of this complexity. However, I think you consistently gloss over the fact that it would have had to be a word-for-word copy of his initial translation. Sure, sure - when an individual translates from one language to another there is variation. But that's the standard of run-of-the-mill, mundane, human translation. Smith's claim was divine inspiration. And that means perfection. If he wanted to convince people he could translate variances would be fine. If he wanted to convince people that he was talking to angels and translating by the power of God, they would be unacceptable.
You claim that the timing made it crucial. Why? Because Smith wouldn't be able to find a publisher? My understanding was that he and his followers funded the printing anyways.
In that case payment was not the issue. The publisher just didn't want to touch it, and it was only when the payment for an unusually large order was provided up front that he was convinced to do the work.
So yeah: timing is critical. Mormonism was a movmement. It was at its most vulnerable at the beginning. If all the stuff we know about Mormon history now (which is clearly insufficient to cause widespread disaffection from the Church) was known then the group would never have gotten started.
It seems plain to me that the newer a movement is, the more vulnerable it is. A blow like this would have been survivable in 1840 because Smith had plenty of followers, plenty of history, etc. But before 1830? The Church would never have gone anywhere.
But thank you for accusing me of monumental stupidity.
That was uncalled for. I'm sorry about that. I was just in a really bad mood (for other reasons) when I wrote my last reply. :-(
As far as Brodie vs. Nibley goes, I still maintain that Nibley is and was an extremely respected scholar outside of the Mormon realm. It would be very interesting for me to see your reaction the article I linked you too in the previous post. Hugh Nibely gets his own section in that article:
As for Brodie, she never even earned a doctorate. Her master's was in English, not history (or psychology). She doesn't have the background, credentials, or education of Nibley. She was a popular writer who never published a single work in a peer-reviewed academic journal. Psychohistory itself is not even a real discipline. There are no departments of psychohistory, no degrees in psychohistory. It is at best a controversial discipline. Taking all these facts together, Brodie and Nibley are simply not in the same league.
But don't even pretend that the difference is so great that you can dismiss me for not seeing an obvious disparity between the two.
I've conceded a lot of points to you. You do know more about polygamy in early Mormonism than I do. And possibly about early Mormonism in general. But where I do most of my research is early Christian history and Biblical studies. And in that field I've read quite a bit about Nibley, as well as reading non-Mormon scholars like Margaret Barker. And I stand by my previous paragraph: Nibley and Brodie can not even be considered to be remotely in the same league. One is an untrained, untested, popular writer. The other is a respected expert with considerable publication in peer-reviewed journals and wide respect outside the Mormon community.
Yet you keep insisting that Smith never really benefited from the Church, not in any way that would make it possible for a reasonable person to question his motives.
That's not really my point. My point is that the facts don't fit the motivations. Just use your example of deriving happiness from illicit meetings with women other than his wife. Why on earth would he create and *publicize* a doctrine of polygamy to reach that end? Why would he more or less coerce others - men and women - to practice something so repulsive to them if his was to strengthen those connections? He drove many people out of his life, alienated friends, and all for what? He could have easily had all the affairs he wanted without all the extra work of creating a doctrine that led to revolt in the Church, tension with friends, and eventually (in part) to his death. While we're at it, why tell Emma *ever*?
Even if you claim it wasn't sex, or even foreplay, it's hard to respect the way Emma was treated.
I agree 100%. As I've said, there's much that's extremely troubling in Mormon history. It's not ponies and rainbows. But I don't believe that your explanations fit the facts.
I should specify my intentions: I don't think that I can prove that Smith acted out of altruism. I think the best I can hope to do is offer an alternative reading that also fits the facts. I understood your original argument to be "the man got money and sex, so obviously that was his motive". By showing that he didn't get money and may or may not have gotten sex I think I can convincingly argue that your original position that it's an open-shut case of lust and greed is false. But I can't actually argue that my competing hypothesis is an obvious and unassailable replacement.
I understand that.
It seems that your argument has gained some subtlety as we've progressed (although I'm sure it's only your tone/style that's changed and that you've had the more sophisticated argument the whole time). And I don't really have a problem with this more sublte version. I certainly don't think Smith's reputation is, from an unbiased perspective, beyond reproach. Quite the opposite. There is much in it that looks shady.
So as the questions become more complex my motivation for arguing with you decrease. I think reasonable people can draw disparate conclusions about Smith. I also have to admit that you've clearly done more research than I have on this topic. Mormon apologetics breaks down into roughly 3 categories:
1. early Christianity
2. Book of Mormon/Bible studies (textual analysis of the Book of Mormon itself)
3. early Mormon history
I'm weakest on #3, and I'm not a professional in any of the three categories. I find the first 2 much more interesting. And much less troubling. (I can be honest that I find much in the history of my Church deeply disconcerting.)
I'm not saying that Smith was unaware of his detractors, or even that he was physically separated from them all the time. I'm talking more about the sort of separation that separates you and I. I think he put his enemies into a tiny box marked "people I don't have to respect or listen to at all", and listened primarily to those who told him he was The Lord's Prophet.
I see. Instead of talking about the impact on his happiness you're talking about the impact on his self-perception. I can't really argue with that.
Had you even skimmed those links,
I did read them. I would not disrespect you by ignoring your evidence. It was disconcerting enough that at this point it goes beyond an internet conversation for me and into real-world research. I would like to know actual sources so I can read the information myself.
What you wrote was extremely convincing. As I said earlier, this is not my strong point and from the evidence provided you've clearly won this round. What's more important than winning or losing, however, is that your evidence is strong and therefore has a better claim on reflecting the reality of what happened.
I've heard of "Sacred Loneliness", but I haven't read it yet. I will certainly take the time to do more research into this arena. So, even though it's not comfortable to research this stuff, I have to say thanks for being as well-informed as you have been.
Another thing that I think undermines your argument: why did Smith marry so many, and usually so young?
FWIW, I didn't find this particularly convincing. But honestly, I don't know a ton about the topic. Here's the only extensive article I've read: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006_Zina_and_Her_Men.html
Anyway, just out of curiosity, what have you read from Mormon scholars responding to the accusations that polygamy was about sex? What have you read from the Mormon perspective about why polygamy was practiced? You seem very well-read on the anti side, I'm just curios what you've read from the Mormon side.
When you're arguing like a hagiography, you can expect some blowback. And I haven't even hit on the really lurid, really implausible accusations against Mormonism.
On the one hand I appreciate that. But on the other hand, come on. Building the temple over secret, underground pentagrams? Virgin sacrifice in the temple? That stuff is just crazy. I certainly get the impression that your focus is myopically on the most lurid take on the Prophet's motivations with little regard to alternative views.
My point is, if she believed that Smith was a fraud, and intended to prove it by bringing out the first translation after Smith produced a replacement, she needn't have made a single change to it. She would be expecting it to be wildly different anyhow, so merely handing the untouched manuscript over would have provided illustration enough.
I disagree entirely. The Book of Mormon simply could not have been written off the top of his head. There is no human being that could dictate those 530+ pages on the fly. I don't know if you've read the book or not, but if you haven't, trust me. This isn't an ode to its literary merits. It's just an extremely complex book in terms of the history it describes and there's no way someone could get it all right without notes. And yet the Book of Mormon's internal narratives is 100% internally consistent. This is in no way evidence that it's true or divine. But it is ample evidence that it had to come from a source text. And if Joseph Smith was not translating, it means he had either notes or (more likely) a full text version to work from. This means that Lucy would indeed have had to alter the text because Joseph Smith should have had little trouble reproducing it if he was a fraud.
Had Smith really had the plates, he would have had little trouble recreating his work.
He would have had little trouble either way, because a source text is essential for a book of this complexity. However, I think you consistently gloss over the fact that it would have had to be a word-for-word copy of his initial translation. Sure, sure - when an individual translates from one language to another there is variation. But that's the standard of run-of-the-mill, mundane, human translation. Smith's claim was divine inspiration. And that means perfection. If he wanted to convince people he could translate variances would be fine. If he wanted to convince people that he was talking to angels and translating by the power of God, they would be unacceptable.
You claim that the timing made it crucial. Why? Because Smith wouldn't be able to find a publisher? My understanding was that he and his followers funded the printing anyways.
In that case payment was not the issue. The publisher just didn't want to touch it, and it was only when the payment for an unusually large order was provided up front that he was convinced to do the work.
So yeah: timing is critical. Mormonism was a movmement. It was at its most vulnerable at the beginning. If all the stuff we know about Mormon history now (which is clearly insufficient to cause widespread disaffection from the Church) was known then the group would never have gotten started.
It seems plain to me that the newer a movement is, the more vulnerable it is. A blow like this would have been survivable in 1840 because Smith had plenty of followers, plenty of history, etc. But before 1830? The Church would never have gone anywhere.
But thank you for accusing me of monumental stupidity.
That was uncalled for. I'm sorry about that. I was just in a really bad mood (for other reasons) when I wrote my last reply.
As far as Brodie vs. Nibley goes, I still maintain that Nibley is and was an extremely respected scholar outside of the Mormon realm. It would be very interesting for me to see your reaction the article I linked you too in the previous post. Hugh Nibely gets his own section in that article:
Whatever flaws may exist in his methodology, Nibley is a scholar of high caliber. Many of his more important essays first appeared in academic journals such as the Revue de Qumran, Vigilae Christianae, Church History, and the Jewish Quarterly Review.12 Nibley has also received praise from non-LDS scholars such as Jacob Neusner, James Charlesworth, Cyrus Gordon, Raphael Patai and Jacob Milgrom.13 The former dean of the Harvard Divinity School, George MacRae, once lamented while hearing him lecture, "It is obscene for a man to know that much!"14
According to wikipedia:he was fluent in the Classical Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Egyptian, Coptic, Arabic, German, French, English, and Spanish languages
It's true that his later works were not published in peer-reviewed, non-Mormon journals, but that's simply because he wasn't interested in that anymore. He had proved the caliber of his scholarship, and then dedicated his life to schoarly study of Mormonism. There's no way to get stuff on Mormonism published. The first serious book on the Book of Mormon wasn't published until the 1990s.As for Brodie, she never even earned a doctorate. Her master's was in English, not history (or psychology). She doesn't have the background, credentials, or education of Nibley. She was a popular writer who never published a single work in a peer-reviewed academic journal. Psychohistory itself is not even a real discipline. There are no departments of psychohistory, no degrees in psychohistory. It is at best a controversial discipline. Taking all these facts together, Brodie and Nibley are simply not in the same league.
But don't even pretend that the difference is so great that you can dismiss me for not seeing an obvious disparity between the two.
I've conceded a lot of points to you. You do know more about polygamy in early Mormonism than I do. And possibly about early Mormonism in general. But where I do most of my research is early Christian history and Biblical studies. And in that field I've read quite a bit about Nibley, as well as reading non-Mormon scholars like Margaret Barker. And I stand by my previous paragraph: Nibley and Brodie can not even be considered to be remotely in the same league. One is an untrained, untested, popular writer. The other is a respected expert with considerable publication in peer-reviewed journals and wide respect outside the Mormon community.
Yet you keep insisting that Smith never really benefited from the Church, not in any way that would make it possible for a reasonable person to question his motives.
That's not really my point. My point is that the facts don't fit the motivations. Just use your example of deriving happiness from illicit meetings with women other than his wife. Why on earth would he create and *publicize* a doctrine of polygamy to reach that end? Why would he more or less coerce others - men and women - to practice something so repulsive to them if his was to strengthen those connections? He drove many people out of his life, alienated friends, and all for what? He could have easily had all the affairs he wanted without all the extra work of creating a doctrine that led to revolt in the Church, tension with friends, and eventually (in part) to his death. While we're at it, why tell Emma *ever*?
Even if you claim it wasn't sex, or even foreplay, it's hard to respect the way Emma was treated.
I agree 100%. As I've said, there's much that's extremely troubling in Mormon history. It's not ponies and rainbows. But I don't believe that your explanations fit the facts.
