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Berkshire Hathaway / RJR / PacifiCorp, please! Here I thought you'd come with something hard. Here I'll even toss you a bone. Warren Buffet cancelled some coal fire power plants because of environmental concerns. He also bought a butt load of solar plants out in Arizona, I mean like massive amounts. Like he's like super epic hero!!! However, he might have canned six coal plants but didn't stop him from selling the coal overseas at a premium and those solar panels, I'll let you guess how much he really paid for them and how much was paid by the public / compare that to the ratio of how much of the energy will actually stay in Arizona. I love Warren Buffet, he's like the high school example of making off good by doing good. But please, if you honestly think he's trying to make taxes fair for you, you are not in the right ballpark, you are not even in the right sport. Next time try someone like Bill Gates who honestly is healing people while only conducting the most massive tax evasion program ever. The worst thing he did was give us a shitty OS. Warren Buffet wants you to smoke it up!!

You know, I remember someone once saying to me about increased taxes the following, "Don't regulate me, don't audit me. Everything else I have people to handle it."

Not saying you cannot win, but know how to fight the battle. Idealism is great, but actually knowing how to engage is a wholly different thing.

Nope, didn't say they were bought because that would be illegal, they work for the public and there are equally many people in each special interest group. So honestly you are promoting a strategy of which side can be the loudest, which in the end doesn't work. Just saying. But I guess it's pretty entertaining.

Exactly, words are nice and cheap and with the advent of the Internet you can buy them them wholesale for a billion words on the penny. If you want change, you'll have to look elsewhere than words. Funding the "titans" so to say is one option that doesn't require a lot of bloodshed. Again, just saying, you're free to pick any other option you think is open to you.

You'll never get Joe six pack to buy into your "fight" talking in such big terms. You are going to need lots of small, easy to digest words (since that's what I guess you're going to go fight with anyway), or you'll never get anyone on your side just saying "think of all the children in 100 years." Most people are doing well thinking what they are going to do next week, much less their great-grandchildren. Your argument would go over like a lead balloon to most voters, you obviously aren't a politician (which that's a good thing, it means you have a heart).

I like how you keep saying bought, government, and what-not, but they are not the problem nor the solution. That's the perceived problem but it isn't the real problem. There's just no "unity" (massive quote fingers here) on the matter and there are a lot of non-government people out there that are getting paid to ensure there isn't unity. You think money (or whatever because at this point money is just like anything else) is being funneled to people on capitol hill and the reality of it is, yeah there is some, but nowhere near the amount that's put into the public's hand. Joe six pack's vote can be bought for a case of beer and its not illegal to buy his vote. Coca-cola can put a dozen vending machines in a school and buy the football team's supplies for the next few decades. Doctor's can buy drugs to save the lives of their patients with a Delta Express card and get a free trip to Maui in a few weeks and then turn around and bill your insurance for a profit. There's all kinds of avenues of using resources to get what you want done and the main issue isn't how you use them, but that you had them to begin with, that there be the problem. If the oil/coal companies thought they could survive the public backlash they'd send $50 to every single person in America (a drop in the bucket to them) and tell them that they, "highly urge you to vote 'no' on solar whatevers". Even if they had a 20% up-take on that, it's money well spent. What's more, the hoot and holler of this, it doesn't even have to be money! That's what is so awesome about all of that. Awesome, of course, meaning "like massively bad." People think money is the root of all evil and the fun fact is that this whole notion that we have needs that need to be met in order to live is a pretty active player in that whole evil thing.

You keep pointing at DC and the reality is you also need to point to the public (because it looks like you are looking for someone to blame here). You can keep pointing at DC, but don't forget the other players as well. That'll at least get you a glimmer of how humanity has shaped its own society and might impart some idea of why changing it isn't something that'll happen overnight or over the next century for that matter. Honestly, I think we ought to entertain at some level the notion that intelligence just leads to extinction and we just need to get over ourselves. Also, if you read all of this and think I'm just saying the problem is Joe six pack and/or the government and/or we should just give up, you're not paying attention.

Because rich people will want you to waste your time and money on trying to change that whole greed part of humanity, rather than give all that money to their opponents.

Well I can't speak for parent, but honestly this has been the case since political power overtook that whole tribal test of strength thing back in the days. Submit a single instance where those who held the highest concentration of resources (money, slaves, oil (crude or olive), land, etc...) didn't use them to get favorable status from those who represented the people and then we'll talk.

All the study proves is that which we've already known. Maybe it might incline some to give money to the underdogs, but to stir the population into change is way not on the plate. Even if a government is over thrown, eventually another props up and rich people (in resources not just money) just dig their claws in again. So since talking about something that's never going to go away no matter how much bug killer you spray on it, why not talk about something else?

The whole idea should be let's make the solar companies rich so that they can do attack ads on coal, oil, and all them other folks. The only way anyone will make headway is to play the same game that's been played for the last six to ten millennia. Maybe in another ten to twenty millennia we will be ready to address this whole facet of humanity.

The thing is, we'd have to assume then that the equipment you just stated was not damaged in the EMP. If that's the case, then yeah, they could just fly a freaking helicopter or drive a van to the fault. Also, I dislike people who just randomly quote binary search algorithm and toss nothing with it. If you thought someone would just have a single person walk the entire line, I have a bridge to sell to you. I apologize for assuming that both of those points would be obvious.

Oh well the military already has tried pacemakers versus EMPs. And typically during planned extended outages, like hurricanes, life support patients are typically taken elsewhere. You'll be surprised what you can find within the public domain from the US military.

No, not really. If you had an EMP that could cook via electromagnetic radiation the electrical grid of the US, you'd have worst problems than EMP caused black outs to deal with.

The whole idea of an effective EMP is to fry as much cooper/aluminum wire as one could. Think of really effective EMPs being more like lighting and less like nuclear detonations, since using a nuclear detonation is like trying to cut off the kitchen lights using a bulldozer and thirty tons of sand. If we're strictly talking EMP, lighting and all the static discharge family is your better bet.

So with that said, a lot of electrical companies are prepped for pretty bad EMPs with response teams, though I'm pretty sure most of America would find that hard to believe when their power does actually go out. One thing that is actually going to be slightly more difficult to deal with is first finding the point of failure, bring it down, and then put up the replacement. With a bomb, it's pretty easy to figure out where the failure is and the upshot is that the part to be replaced is already on the ground or missing completely so you can skip that whole removal step. Yeah, we might be talking several kilometers needing to be replaced with a nuclear device, but you know from the first second you need a couple of hundred kilometers of wire. A good EMP keeps you guessing and has a dozen or so employees walking hundreds of kilometers of wire trying to find the failure. Better sections of the US grid have more fine grain reporting points so maybe on a dozen or so kilometers need to be checked. However, the actual transmission lines are the key to a good EMP. That said, you don't need a big "bomb" to be effective, you just need coordinated attacks on major transmission lines. However, doing that alone is just more of a major disruption, rather than a major blow to the nation.

Additionally, power generating plants usually have a lot of counter measures for EMPs. So you really aren't going to take out the generators. It's silly to think that someone could without a massively coordinated attack. Especially if we're talking strictly EMP here. If we're talking a nuclear device, again, you've got bigger problems especially if you had enough to take out all the major plants in the US.

The real danger here, I guess, is consumers. Some EMPs can fry pacemakers and pretty much anyone on life support is dead in a massive EMP. However, it's not the end of society and more so, hardly the end of the US. You can take any example of when some large section of the US had power knocked out for several weeks. A massive EMP would be roughly equal to a hurricane without any advance notice that hit a large section of the US. If you were lucky enough to hit the entire US then multiply the figures in your head by that amount. However, the end of days for the US, hardily. EMP weapons in real life would cause some death but for the most part the US would be tired of martial law long before the US fell under the pressure of an EMP weapon.

The real tactical value of EMPs is not as some silver bullet, but as a disruptive force that is soon followed by other forms of attack. Additionally, you'd want your EMP to be as quiet as possible and look as much like a lighting strike as possible on the grid. Anything else and there would be way too much attention drawn that would get people ready for the obvious next strike. Thinking that an EMP would be a good primary strike is silly. Additionally, some have thought about EMPs in asymmetrical warfare contexts and while they would play a good role in the demoralizing aspect of that, it's just simpler to buy a ton of fertilizer and diesel fuel as opposed to trying to construct something massive enough to disrupt more than just a few dozen people. In other words, the reason low tech seems to win in asymmetrical warfare and terrorist operations is that you get more bang for buck so to say.

I think when you consider it carefully, those who would toss EMPs around like we are under some imminent threat of them, are doing nothing more but trying to push some agenda. EMPs just really aren't that great of a weapon and the technical curve to building ones that would be worth the time and money is just too high for your casual mayhem makers.

I'm a little curious, why you bring up the link to systemd? Is it because it prevents the stack from running on BSD?

If we honestly wanted to follow the Unix philosophy, we should add X11 to that list as well. There's nothing about X that follows the Unix philosophy any more.

I know that some here on Slashdot will be at a loss for sympathy for the project being in such dire circumstance. However, the key thing that some should remember is that a lot of what the GNOME hackers do, goes into the base for many other projects as well. Much of Linux Mint is an eclectic mix of Ubuntu and GNOME. Likewise for Elementary OS.

So while we might be able to argue if this project has finally run its course, which I do want to add that the foundation running out of reserves hardly equates to the death knell for GNOME. One of the things we shouldn't do, or at least it would be in a very short sighted, is think that the actual GNOME Desktop and how ... "not so great," they've ran that ship plays into all of this. Agreed, the people in the project have become quite hard headed, but honestly which OSS project hasn't by now? However, there are a lot of people (Canonical *cough, cough*) who find their software very useful and hardly give anything back, at least to the foundation.

PS: Being using beta now for a month plus some. I honestly think it is getting better but it does need quite a bit more work. I guess I just wanted to add that after seeing all the f*** beta sigs.

Totally hit nail on head there. It's always been a gamble which of the different frameworks will mesh out in the petty internal battle. It's hard to bank on any MS tech because you never know when it might just up and vanish. I've seen some say, oh then I guess we should just stick to COM then. No, but changing the game as often as I change my phone isn't going to help you win converts.

The whole conversation is less about SSH and more about X11. I don't think anyone is saying SSH is slow.

I think, and I dislike this disjoined thread so maybe we can move it all back into one thread, if you ask the Wayland team, they'd be the first to tell you that X11 isn't going anywhere. There is a difference between wishful thinking and the reality. The Wayland people are anxious to have a more testers for their display system. Distros are ultimately the ones who decided to "cram" it down your throat. The Wayland people have good reason to see the end of X, because many of the X developers are on the Wayland team. They see X as taking time away from Wayland, however, they acknowledge that X is a pretty important piece of software and that supporting it for the near future is a pretty big item on the list. Additionally, yeah they are a bit rude, but they have non-stop email after email on their list yelling about how wrong they are. So yeah, maybe they've gotten a bit jaded. Do you blame them?

Feverish much?

There isn't a point because you'll just sit here and come up with half brained reasons as to why it is wrong. So why even go down the road to begin with? It'll just lead to a conversation that neither of us really want to have, wouldn't you agree?

X11's tunneling isn't worth it to me and that's the way I feel about the matter, case closed. It obviously is something you are worth foaming at the mouth about, so if that's what tickles your fancy so be it. We just don't agree on how we'd go about implementing like solutions, like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you find that hard to swallow, that isn't exactly my problem. However that's what we have in front of us. Neither one of us agrees on the solution, presenting our so called facts will just stroke more flames, and I'm pretty sure both of us have better things we could be doing with our time than to talk about pieces of software.

Do you have anything else you'd like to add? I'll be more than happy to enter a reasonable debate about the matter, but I doubt from your tone that we'd have a reasonable debate. Don't you think that this thread might be a bit too hot to really have any useful discussion?

What do you think happened to XOrg? XOrg has suffered greatly from a lot of in fighting that sounds a lot like what you and I are having at the moment. Why do you think that has happened? You say the split resulted in a much better display system, why do you think that would not happen with Wayland? It is one thing to have outside people say X11 sucks, but it is an altogether different thing to have X11 developers say X11 sucks. Why do you think they say that?

I'm more than happy to entertain the thought that X11 has some saving grace, but I and a lot of X11 developers are drawing blanks when posited the same question. The world has changed and X11 is too large to move as agile as the world would want it. The exact same thing could be said about IPv6, or the new firewall code in the Linux kernel, or btrfs, and so on. There are a ton of pieces of software where better, more agile things have come along and people just aren't ready to give up the old to make way for the new. Eventually those new things will become old and we'll all have the same arguments all over again. All that being said, maybe you can understand why I am so tired of these rehashed arguments. I've had twenty years of having these types of (quote fingers)discussions(quote fingers), I'm pretty much done with them. Maybe, you aren't that way and perhaps that's a fault of me, but I just can't stomach this kind of back and forth. Hopefully you can understand that.

So like I said, maybe we can *both* cool off a bit and have a reasonable discussion some point down the road. However, I just don't think we're going to have that at this moment.

If you honestly want my opinion on remote options I'll relent, but only if you wish to push the matter more. Whatever it is that gives you some piece of mind.

There obviously isn't any point. I don't think I'll ever be able to convince you personally that the feverish hang ups that you have with X are the exact same things that has played out on X11 mailing lists for the last decade and a half that has gotten X11 nowhere. The whole XFree/X.org breakup was all politically motivated. Same thing here. There is just too much drag to worry about trying to fix X11, it just isn't worth the headache to fix. Fixing X just causes more problems and more headaches. Might as well start clean.

There are things that are worth the argue, but I doubt that we'll ever be able to agree on anything with this topic. For me, X11 just isn't worth continuing to prop up. For you, you see it as some vital thing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

If you think X11 is going away anytime soon, then you've been horribly misled. Yes the Wayland folks want it to go away but we're in too deep for X11 to disappear anytime this decade. That's just a show of how dug in some are with X. I'm not sure what IPC issue you speak of but I do know that X11 takes in 1270ish points in the API for IPC alone. Wayland's stands at 135. The API is greatly simplified so if you have a better scheme in mind, you have a lot of liberty to, 'go it alone'. The last bit isn't a head in the sand. It's a not our domain to implement thing. Which I think it's a good thing that they focus on the display stack and not network bits.