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Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Why should you be allowed to intentionally make false, damaging statements about somebody? Anonymously or otherwise? Current law says you don't have the right to do that, and I agree with the law.

Do you think it's okay to "anonymously" shoot somebody with a gun, or "anonymously" run over them with a car? If not, why should you be allowed to injure them any other way anonymously? It makes no sense.

As for "the powerful", if you are a "public figure" you have to show actual malice before you may demand reparations. Because as a public figure, there must be room for the public to comment about your actions.

But that's already the law.

I distinguish between speech, on the one hand, and shooting or running over someone, on the other hand, because speech is important to society. Our laws protect people who say things that are offensive, because sometimes the ability to speak freely is an important defense against tyrrany.

As long as a speaker remains anonymous, it is difficult to say whether there is "actual malice" involved. The only evidence we have is the words he wrote. If a public figure can out an anonymous speaker to determine whether or not there was "actual malice", the damage is done.

A person who has inside information about nefarious deeds, but who is, because of his position, vulnerable to retaliation, should be able to speak anonymously.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Unjust accusations perhaps used to time out, but they don't now. If your name is linked with child molestation now, on the web, it will be so linked essentially forever. Your only recourse may be to change your name.

Also, you're willing to lose out on a job. Are you willing to lose out on job after job? In any field where the number of applications is greater than the hiring authorities are willing to deal with, doing a quick Google search for every applicant and throwing out the applications when coming up with anything unfavorable is going to be tempting. Employers aren't worried about being fair to the people applying for jobs. They're worried about not getting an incompetent or somebody who's going to disrupt the office or cause serious problems.

Similarly, if customers Google you, you may lose too many of them. If you're working in a customer contact position, your employer may be forced to dismiss you because you're losing too many customers. If you're self-employed, your business may fall off.

I'm not worried about your friends. Either they'll realize that the accusations were false, or they're not worth keeping. I'm worried about your ability to get and hold a good job.

The ability to track down the alleger and sue him or her isn't a perfect solution, but it's better than being able to do nothing about being anonymously maligned.

Yes, you are right. The consequences to the individual of being unjustly maligned are severe. I think you may overestimate the harm in the case of an employee in a customer contact position, but even so the consequences can be harsh. However, by the time we have to choose whether or not to force an anonymous accuser to reveal himself, the damage is done: the linkage is out there for anyone to find. The ability to track down the accuser and sue him doesn't undo that; it might even make the accusation more prominent. That is why I feel that the ability to penetrate anonymity is not worth the cost to society.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Doesn't filing a court case do even more than a denial to make the original allegation more prominent?

Short term yes, long term no.

Making a denial is less noise now, but leaves the floor open for our little whisperer to continue throwing allegations around. That's what whisper campaigns and echo chambers are, after all - a continual drip of unsourced comments and allegations, until it becomes something common knowledge that everyone has heard somewhere.

A lawsuit brings attention to useful facts - that the commenter is anonymous (and thus Not Respectable), which damps down the early trouble. And now that he gets a name, there's someone who has to put up or shut up (probably on camera, if Hadley is any sort of good politician). But worst case, he goes from having to defend himself against shadows to having an actual person to rebut.

But you are overlooking the harm to society. The accused is acting in his own best interests, but I feel that outing an anonymous speaker is bad for the rest of us, because future speakers, who know something important but are vulnerable to retaliation, will hesitate to speak anonymously for fear that they will be revealed. A famous case is "Deep Throat", in which the associate director of the FBI squealed on the president of the United States. I want that to continue to be possible.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Except that now all *you're* talking about is whether you're a pedophile. And now you're on the road to "have you stopped beating your wife yet". Whisper campaigns work, unfortunately.

I don't think this even counts as "chilling free speech". Whomever this person is, they're free to repeat their claim once they're name is revealed. And if it's some punk kid in a library, that'll do far more to kill the story than anything he can do otherwise.

Presuming that he's not *actually* a child molester, getting a name to the quote is all up-side for him. Maybe it's a kid who backs down when the cameras ask him to repeat it. Or maybe it'll trace back to a political opponent, and now he's got a whole can of whoop-ass to unload.

Yes, this is all upside for the accused. However, there is a down side for society. If a powerful person who is offended by anonymous speech can penetrate the anonymity, then no anonymous speaker is safe from being revealed. Being able to engage in anonymous political speech is an important defense against tyrrany.

The conflict here is between the right of the accused to face his accuser, and the right of an accuser to remain anonymous if he wishes. I come down on the side of the anonymous accuser because I feel that anonymous political speech is important to society.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

You may be willing to pay that price but some people can not afford to pay that price. I see what your opinions are and I am grateful that you have given accurate and honest answers. I am not sure that I agree with you entirely and I, too, do not know how to solve this. I do know that I can easily think of positions that people can realistically be in where they are unable to afford to pay the price of false allegations. This is mostly due to other people who can not think logically or refuse to change their minds once they are made up.

A person who cannot afford to pay the price of a false allegation is in serious trouble, because false allegations cannot be prevented.

I have encountered people who do not think logically and refuse to change their minds once they are made up, no matter what the evidence. It is my hope that these people will be seen for what they are, and disregarded by all but those who agree with them.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

And yet there are still some reporters who do investigations.

Yes. Some. Dare I say a vast minority. Given how we're constantly hearing about some blunder in the industry about popular media outlets running with a false story because they don't check their sources it's a real problem. It's beyond the general stupid masses. Even some of the smarter people will typically have some media outlets who they think are "trustworthy" and then take stories on face value. It doesn't take much for a slip-up to screw someone's life.

Heck the general public has gone bat shit crazy only last week on revelations that Snowden has compromised national security because the Russians and the Chinese now have American secrets. Or so pretty much every major news outlet has repeated based on some anonymous source that talked to a single paper.

I have seen no evidence that the general public has gone "bat shit crazy" or even noticed the story. Perhaps you are paying too much attention to news sources that magnify the facts to get a more interesting story. The technique has been around for more than 100 years: see Yellow journalism.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

my opinion, the libel laws should apply only to an accuser who is willing to defend his accusation in public.

Just no. If the statement was made publicly, and the the speaker should reasonably have known it was false, then they must be subject to the law. Damage may already be done! You'd give people a pass to hit-and-run.

I will not endorse such a scheme.

Yes, I would give people a pass to hit-and-run. I would do so because I believe the only alternative is disallowing anonymous libelous speech, either by suppressing the speech or piercing the anonymity. The problem is that the definition of libelous will be perverted by the powerful to include anything that makes them uncomfortable, and that leads to the suppression of anonymous dissent.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Reporter investigation? What's that?

No seriously for the most part investigations are a thing of the past. We live in a world where everyone is a live reporter themselves. An accusation gets made and moments later it hits twitter, Facebook etc, and millions of people know you as a paedophile. Then you come out through a reputable news agency and millions of people will think "Of course he says that, he's trying to hid the fact he's a paedophile!". When things go REALLY south you may even find reputable news agencies pick up what's making the round on twitter as fact, and then your Wikipedia page will have that listed as well complete with references to the media.

Anonymous Cowards can do a lot of damage in the modern media because the masses in general are stupid. Heck last week someone took a selfie of themselves against some poster, and some white knight though he was taking a snap of a child sitting further away, took his photo and it was shared several 10s of thousands of times on Facebook until someone AT HIS WORK mentioned it.

And yet there are still some reporters who do investigations.

I think you have identified the heart of the problem: "...the masses in general are stupid." It is my hope that, in time, the masses will become less stupid. Even so, I would rather suffer from the stupidity of the masses than risk the suppression of all speech that offends the powerful.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

I have faith in people's intelligence. Maybe I'm wrong,

And history shows pretty clearly that you are.

Libel laws did not arise out of some lawmaker's whim. They developed over a very long time, and for very good societal reasons.

Knowingly and intentionally (not the same things) making false statements about somebody can do real damage to his or her reputation, livelihood, family life, etc. I mean real damage, in the same sense as a broken leg is damage. Once that's done, maybe they won't have the resources to fight back. Clearly that would be a one-sided situation favoring the "false witness". That's why there are legal remedies.

Of course legal remedies aren't a panacea. It takes money, time, and effort to sue somebody. That's why sometimes even if it really is libel, and really can be proved, and the injured party really does want to sue, he or she may not be reasonably able to at any given time for a number of reasons.

In order for libel laws to be effective, it has to be possible to identify the accuser. Even when it is, the accuser may be beyond the reach of justice, for example by being dead. The major benefit of libel laws, in my opinion, is that they provide a public forum (court) where the issue can be debated and a neutral party (judge or jury) can publicly decide who is right. That doesn't work if the accuser can't be made to defend his position.

In my opinion, the libel laws should apply only to an accuser who is willing to defend his accusation in public. Society should give no weight to anonymous accusations unless they are accompanied by a persuasive argument. If the accusation involves criminal conduct the State can pursue the criminal case. If it doesn't, the accused might feel that a public response to the argument is warranted.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

You have a good point, and I don't have a very good answer either. There is the evil of being persecuted based on unfounded rumor, and there is the evil of "the right to be forgotten" leading to unpersons as described in "Nineteen Eighty-Four", where the inner party controls history.

Personally, I feel that the risk of tyranny is the greater of the two evils. If somebody is unwilling to deal with me socially because of a rumor about me that they've heard, and they are unwilling to ask me or those who know me personally about it, then I accept that I lose out, either on a friend, a job, a customer, or whatever. It's a price I am willing to pay.

Furthermore, I am not sure the evils that follow an unjust accusation will last forever. In time, those who rejected you will realize that you aren't such a bad guy after all, and your social status will slowly recover. Yes, people meeting you for the first time will be put off by the old records of the rumor, but those close to you will, I believe, eventually forgive you.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Free speech does not imply freedom from the consequences of your speech. If you make untrue accusations about someone you can be held accountable for your actions. The government is not stopping you from speaking, which would infringe your free speech rights. if you do it anonymously then it is not ureasonable for someone to want to pierce the veil of anonymity.

The road you are going down leads to suppression of speech which the powerful find uncomfortable. I would rather have the ability for an anonymous speaker to remain anonymous, no matter what he says. I would rather make the effort to ignore hateful and foolish speech than risk the suppression of dissent.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Let me introduce you to Dale Akiki. Patently false accusations, including that he had sacrificed a giraffe in a church classroom during Sunday services, landed him in an extended court trial. He was eventually exonerated, but for a long stretch of the 1990s, everyone in San Diego knew he was a satanic pedophile.

An interesting article, thank you. It recounts a shameful period of American history, when people were convicted of child abuse based on manufactured evidence. However, I do not agree that "everyone in San Diego" believed that Dale Akiki was a satanic pedophile. My daughter was living in San Diego at the time, and I don't think she believed it. In fact, I would venture to guess that most people in San Diego who were even aware of the trial treated it as theatre.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

If it is a bare, unsupported, accusation, just deny it. If the smearer offers evidence, offer evidence of your own that the accusation is untrue.

For example, an ad to show that I am not a witch. Everyone will believe that.

If the original accusation was simple "She's a witch" then it would have been better to ignore it, in my opinion. Apparently she thought she could ridicule her opponents by turning it into a joke. Maybe she is right.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

I have faith in people's intelligence.

You're joking. Have you taken a look at people lately?

I know what a mob can do. I'll never forget the Watts riots. Nevertheless, I believe in the basic goodness of people. As best I can tell, most people who riot are looters, just trying to steal stuff. They feel like if they don't take something they are foolishly depriving themselves. I don't see any evil there, just greed and selfishness.

There are truly evil people in the world, but they are by far the minority.

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