I'm well aware of this ;) I know precisely where we are headed. Now the trick is to reach the mast before the rest of the rats :P :)

What do you mean when; its already happening. currency has devalued almost 135% in the last 3 years alone; theres a negative interest rate in effect 0% interest + the treasury is paying banks to deposit their illusory gains; asia's smart enough to catch on and they're very nervous about what the US is doing -- to the point were they are not willing to invest in the US without gaurantees from the US government that there is a fixed amount they will print before returning the interest rate to its proper place.

Actually at this point I figure we're about 1 year away from Government paying its employees in scrip. States have already started. Recession over my ass. and don't let the unemployment no's fool you/stock market fool you; unemployment is already running as high as 16.7% (for minorities -- white people are a year behind at 10%), and the stockmarket is only going up because the currency is devaluing.

so what your saying is people who know how to use a computer have to pay for people who don't and are too stupid to learn.

Where the hell is world war III already, damnit!

>Cool how you don't answer anything ... but pretty obvious.

I respond to all your points, you snip most of mine ;)

>I ain't saying east or west is better - I am saying that individuals are better and no system or ethos should be in place to suppress that.
Uptight neighbours, moralistic societies, cops, religion - it's all control bollocks - all good in very small amounts, but not really a way to run the world.

Somebodies got run it. An *objective*, *knowledgeable* comparison of systems is in order. I've lived in both cultures. Each has its merits.
On the society-wide scale I prefer the middle-eastern approach. On the microcosm I prefer the western approach. I of course, have never been to Amsterdam but thats
prolly the system I'ld like overall (at a guess).

>You're still obsessed with history and religion;

Well history ;) I also happen to know a bit about religion(s) since over 90% of the population does practice some form or another for quite some time -- makes it difficult to have a conversation if you
aren't knowledgeable to some degree.

>I've been there too, then I travelled, got to know real people all over the world (yes, in Islamic countries too!) and grew up. I've SEEN people behave differently when the cops or political guard are watching than they do in their own homes, women not allowed out without male company, women afraid to go out because they get hassled by gangs, people killed in the street, riots, peace parades, all night parties, demos against teaching evolution, racists and Jihadists at Speaker's Corner ...

"women not allowed out without male company, women afraid to go out because they get hassled"
hmmmm might that be why we send our women out *with* male company? ... .... a little common sense is in order.
and mind you thats in the same sentence ;)

>With freedom comes the risk of physical and property harm - but it's worth it for the freedom - that's what the Confucius quote was all about.

to your ethos - (and by the way, I agree) -- but funny thing, I ain't normal - whats no big thing to me tends to frighten the hell out of most
*normal* people - so when they choose all those wonderful things you detest as worth the sacrifice of their personal liberties, who am I to argue?
You are only as free as you want to be, imho.

>You can't control everyone for your own perfect society - it's not perfect, people aren't perfect - when you realise that you'll feel frightened and unsure but also fully aware as a human being.

Nor do I want to ;) but a baseline of some acceptable standards is always nice ;) I've pretty much got only 2 requirements, 1 prohibition and 1 recommendation:
1) use your head (make your choices with your eyes open)
2) try not to repeat mistakes
- willful ignorance is unacceptable
- try and live in peace with your fellow man

that is hardly the straight jacket you seem to think it is. and yes that means sometimes those police states are preferable to the alternative (and sometimes they aren't);
the beauty is you get to make that decision on a personal level - and sometimes you'll get bit with the consequences of fighting against this or that but life ain't gauranteed
to always go your way.

>Utopia is hell and you're a dick for thinking it is - worse still, all the worst things that people do to others are down to them wanting their own utopia.

My utopia is you staying away ;) JOKING - lord man, regain your sense of composure ;)
I'm not interested in Utopia. I would appreciate it if you kept the arms out of the middle-east
and stop sending chrusaders er soldiers. Oh and maybe stop propping up despots with laundered IMF funds
with the quid-pro-quo that they spend it on US goods (knowing full well they'll buy billions of dollars
of arms). You know, generally stop pissing in my yard :P And for that matter, stop pissing on my
neighbors yard too. Purchasing your financial success on the backs and the misery of others isn't
the road to being a good neighbor. That isn't a Utopia - thats just common courtesy.

>Your response on the wife bit is true - your business, my business, not the law's or the state's.

  whats the difference if its me beating you with a pipe or the goverment with a stone?
  keep your prick in *your* wife and it ain't a problem ;) but you really can't even respect
  something as basic as matrimony - so whats the point?

> Violent police states? Iran beats UK and US combined don't ya think or you missed the latest protests?

  clearly you dont watch enough cops - tasering 72 year old women, and the deaf for not following your verbal commands?
  Or how about assault with a baton rectally or shooting a guy 55 times for getting his cell phone. or waco, or the
  historical abuses in the south pre-civil rights, or how about the war on drugs (and the lives its ruined).

>Hijab is recommended? By who? Who gets the right to tell people how to dress? No one.

Koran - if you're muslim, and notice its recommended, not required. Thats a common misconception ;)
And last I checked it was France that banned the hijab :) and thats about as secular as you get (excluding Amsterdam)

>Nukes to nutjobs, arms to both sides? Same thing you idiot.

Nukes to nutjobs - you did say they were selling *secrets*. a secret is not a thing - it is information;
and information wants to be free (and in this case information is essentially already public)...

>Swearing not a crime? Go to Saudi and swear in public - see what happens!

I have. no problems. Have you? and swearing is a bad example (for you) insofar
as I swear like a Camaar fish-wife (and suffer no ill effects) ;) so you
might want to get off it as your primary example of repressiveness :P

>> Oh I'm for personal freedoms - just not your (idea of) personal freedoms ;)

And thus you define your repressive position entirely. You don't get to tell people
how they live their lives unless it hurts you physically or your property.

-- ah its your caveat that undoes you - I can prove physical harm and property damages
following your system - you can't following mine - lovely straw man you have there.

>Religious states are all about crossing that boundary.

Study your history - its Christians torturing other Christians (spanish inquisition), and Christians gassing Jews (holocaust).
and anybody that didn't want to deal with it came to the *enlightened* caliphites 'cause on this side of the world it isn't
about screwing your neighbor - its about getting along with them.

>Obviously I'm aware that you're thinking you're superior to me as you're taking excessive patience with my replies; condescension is the mark of a true dolt...

lol. this is stuff off the cuff, your case is untenable - your just too slow to realize it ;) I didn't even bother to dig in history, 95% of your points
are refutable based on the last 6 days of current events, much less historical periods :P My friend, I suggest you broaden your readings, maybe learn
a different language or travel. This us versus them mentality is foolishness. I dont think you would spontaneously combust living in the middle-east
-- try it for a time ;) You might even like it :P

>Who the fuck cares if you fuck someone else's wife? none of the govt's business if you do is it?

Your wife is your business, my wife is my business ;) if you kept it that way, wouldn't be a problem ;)

>Or the law's? It's human nature, let Maury sort it out. Stoning is not proportionate. And you still avoid dealing with the violent police state statement that I made. Don't get distracted.

Violent police state? where, Britain or the US?

>As for IP - well as much as i hate it I don't think i'd choose for all women to go around with burkha's just so i can implement FAT32 - not proportionate.
Too much disproportion in Shariah.

Burkha isn't islamic, its tribal - you got a problem with it, go talk to the tribes; hijab is also optional but recommended.

>Again, who supplies arms to anyone? Would that be Pak sending nuclear secrets to unstable nations (Iran isn't unstable I hear you cry? then you're an idiot who never watches the news).

Information wants to be free (what is a nuclear *secret*? - noone owns an idea) - selling military arms to both sides of a conflict for decades is an entirely different animal.

>And you're a chap who uses words like poon and bitch are you? I think in Shariah you'd get well stoned for that my man.

Nope - cursing isn't a crime ;) try reading the Sharia before your make judgements on it.

>face it, all nations, all religions, all governments, all police forces, are bastards. We need a lot of personal freedom to keep them at bay.

Oh I'm for personal freedoms - just not your (idea of) personal freedoms ;)
lol
That too, would be a joke :P

Luck

>Ha ha - so you're saying that Muslim countries are safe for being Muslim-run eh? You're a dolt! All you get is a violent police state, and women trapped in bad marriages, and fixed elections, and academics stoned for theories. Sharia is spreading because otherwise the Al-Q guys will kill everyone anyway and like i said, most people just want a quiet life, but maybe I should have also mentioned that most people also want to be free and this is in fact concordant with Islam - but Al-Q are nothing to do with Islam - they're just thugs. "We the people" just want to be left the f**k alone to practice our religion and download free music and have affairs and behave immorally in private and morally in public. Don't need Sharia or Al-Q or The Jebus Channel to tell us what to do.

You dont get stoned for fucking - you get stoned for fucking somebody else's wife - you want your poon, get her to divorce and marry the bitch.
And there isn't any IP in sharia either. Nor endemic speculation either. So what *is* your complaint?

>Peace is not always better than war ... freedom is the thing -

Peace is always better; war is (and should always be) the absolute last resort; and none of this
pre-emptive crap or supplying arms to anyone who will buy them and not expecting to get sucked into the war you help create.

>and being left the f**k alone to be free. I want to be free from the spectre of terrorism

you'll never be free - you fear to much. There will always be *something* you fear that justifies the suffering you bring.

> and if the way to do that is to bomb the f**k out of somewhere then so f**king be it. .....

> I also want women to be unsuppressed in all countries, so if bit of violence gets that done then so be it - suffragettes did it didn't they?

Suffragettes got what they wanted by persistence in the face of adversity; this is known as character.

>You make it sound like they were all reasonable before and now the US stuck its nose in the whole thing's gone tits up.
What they say they want - the end of foreign influence in Muslim countries and an Islamic caliphate - might have been achievable, eventually, through the political / religious process - tough going, but like for all us suckers eventually doable if enough people liked the idea; but they don't
--
they do - Nigeria, northern region wants sharia courts,
Afghanistan, sharia courts,
Safest Province in Phillipines, is a muslim-run one.

>maybe because their requirement would lead to total isolation of Islamic countries and effectively would require all non Islamic countries to either kick out all Muslims or let them establish the caliphate there too.

--
let them establish - lol - we've had 2 already and there will be more - your permission is not necessary. And what really pops the powers that be is the no usury prohibition - how else would they inflate the currency, rob the masses and run their wars? HMMMM. and considering how things are going in the west, a little isolation from your neighbors house that is on fire is a *good* thing. The west is the one lobbing flaming wreckage all over the rest of the world.

> Bum steer for all the normal people who just want to live their life in safety and happiness.

Violent crime is neglible in muslim countries, same goes for theft - protection of life and property, hmmmm. So you can't screw outside of marriage, maybe thats because its a *good* thing - did I mention that STDs are also non-existent by comparison to Western standards..

> Guess no one would really support them, so they chose to kill innocent civilians and young men and women instead because that makes them look like soldiers and heroes instead of the cowardly morons they actually are. So if you define SPECTRE as a bunch of miserable low lifes who like to kill - then that's what they are.

As opposed to carpet bombing civilians and mining somebody elses country?
What a hypocrite you are. Learn some history, at least - learn some of your countries history.
Hell I'ld settle for current events.

*Peace is always better then war, regardless of the reason* - give'm what they want, stop meddling in their affairs.
It's a small mind that thinks that control over others is necessary to survival.

that rocked, tons of companies/engineers/scientists set up booths from companies and offered interactive science stuff (oriented for kids and adults).

I really really enjoyed the couple of hours I spent there - I would have spent alot more time on-site if I had known it was going on :P

Anyway, there was a pair of "scientists" who were putting on a show (basically mad scientists) old-school style, they had bunsen burners, hookah's, old-school acetylene oil-can torches, shrinkwrap and the like and they did a skit that had me _rolling_ in the aisles. And mind you I dont speak a word of french :P :)

Very talented fellows, I think they were hired by Merck (or work for them) - either actors or scientists who _really_ like getting kids excited about science.

My hats off the gents they did a fantastic job.

how about a link to those guidelines? mea culpa I am ignorant. Then again I haven't written a win32 desktop app since 1995 ;)

Still I'm curious ;)

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