The comment wasn't fully aimed at you. I actually agree with most of your points. Hence why engineers now have the whole, professional engineer title.

Quite aware of Comp Sys Eng, as my major was Electrical Engineering as well. ( although, im one of those so called "drop out", because I left at the end of my third year at cornell on a leave, to join the dotcom craze, heck, i'm still technically a matriculated student, 11 years later lol)

I see the systems engineer role in IT, and perhaps due to my experience, as more in tune to the original role created out of large engineering projects. There needed to be engineers that were looking at the big picture, but knew enough on how individual components worked, to best utilize, integrate, and manage them.

ie, what I have done in the last few companies, aside from the normal sysadmin role, is to see projects from conception to completion. From sitting down at design meetings, to reviewing design documents, to setting general system rules, to figuring out network and systems architecture, to doing code walk thrus ( verbal ones most of the time), to devising launch strategies, etc etc. Many of the projects come out of the sys engineering team, having dev's be a resource to sysadmins ( the way it works at google.com btw, with their SRE team, as well as many other companies )

My real peeve though, is that somehow, many devs, while doing no more different work than a cert monkey, somehow feel "holier than though".

In the end though, most people that get to do interesting work are usually either highly motivated, or lucky. And those come in both the sys admin/eng word, and in development.

Computer janitor, huh?

Look, a true sys admin or systems engineer is truer to "engineering" than "CS" is to "science".

Most CS graduates are venerable code drones, doing fixes and minor features at the helm of Pm's. That sounds more like a janitor to me.

Sys admin work is true systems engineering. iow, building complex systems out of building blocks. Way more interesting than being a code monkey for the most part.

( and btw, most good admins can code )

Uh... you guys do know that "engine"er comes from a trade? right? ( it was the guy that conducted, fixed the trains ;) )

Oh wait, I'm sure you both have your PE's. Right?

Its funny seeing programmers, because computer scientist you surely are not, bitch about the engineer title. Then I ask them if they have their PE, which is based on Apprenticeship, and then love to see their blank stare lol

"what's a pe?"

Look, while there are many unqualified and cert monkeys passing themselves as sysadmin, a true sysadmin, systems engineer is closer to the true meaning of an engineer, then someone with a CS degree is.

The role of the sysadmin, is a true systems engineer ( look up that meaning too, you'll see).

A true sys. admin, or systems engineer in IT, looks at the whole system, and uses components as building blocks to a scalable and stable architecture.

Why do you think this is? Why do you feel, that a war of defense is different

( I actually agree, but i'm trying to get you to see a point here )

There's an old saying, who's wording I always forget, but goes something like

"the ingrate never looks at the helping/feeding hand"

What makes us the most capable animal, aside from the opposable thumbs, is our sense of comunity, of "society". This i what makes countries. But I'm digressing...

The old adage, nothing is ever free. "free" societies, come at a price. This has always, and will always, be true.

Ahh, the truth comes out, you just hate cold weather.. LOL..

Just move to the carribbean!!! I find that getting laid often and going on hot weather vacations does wonders for my nationalism LOL...

I could not agree with this point more.

It's great to see sense in slashdot, albeit uncommon, is still alive. :)

As I replied to a previous commenter

Principles and ideas that changed the world, resulted in the overthrow of one nationalism, and the creation of another ;) It's odd how that works hehe

Again, you may be mistaking my message, ( its easy to, I by no means claim this is an easy or clear cut topic, or that I'm any good at fully expressing my opinion lol).

But, to say, "I owe you nothing!!! But give me those darn benefits!!!", is the worst of all.

Makes people sound like spoiled teenagers reveling against their "unfair parent".

Life isn't "fair". Life has tough choices.

Because it really is "the hand that feeds" you, in this case add "protection" etc etc.

As with any human situation, when confronted with a situation you are not comfortable with, you should examine your choices.

If you are unhappy where you are, work to change it, or work to remove yourself from that situation. You don't get to choose where you are born, but you get to choose your actions.

It's simple.

Be thankful you live in a country where you have an easier choice/chance to do so.

Besides...

A hell of a lot of people, believe a hell lot of different things. It doesn't make fringe believes any "righter" or "wronger"

Because you obviously don't value your citizenship.

I'm as leftist/liberal as they come, but one thing left or right you should never bring up, is questioning loyalty to your country, whatever it may be. That is, if you value your citizenship.

You CAN be loyal while dissenting, but you CAN NOT be loyal while questioning the worth of your citizenship. To ANY country.

And loyalty is one of the few rights a citizen owes to the state. Else you either work to overthrow it, or move the f^($ out.

Disloyalty while reaping benefits is the worst hypocrisy.

Nationalism, while having many bad sides, it's good sides, have basically built the world.

So the United States, or any other country, it's not only "a place of birth", it's your place of citizenship. As such, you owe it loyalty, even in dissent.

If not, you got your choices.