Countertrolling said:
And I understand that absolute rights are determined by pure physics (if you get pushed out of an airplane, you have the absolute right to fall to earth), nothing to do with deities or human 'morality'.
So, absolute rights have nothing to do with human morality. That makes it pretty clear that "absolute rights" aren't what the post was talking about--it seemed to argue that we should make our decision based on what kind of society we would prefer to be. You just misread the post. You're changing the subject, but I'm humoring you so I guess I'm part of the problem.
As to whether the rights are absolute or government granted, the problem is that the "contract" that we have with our government partly includes the provision for judicial review and precedent.
Judicial review determines how laws will be interpreted by the government. It doesn't redefine what words actually mean. Otherwise it would make no sense for SCOTUS to issue dissenting opinions--the majority opinion would, according to you, be true by definition.
That is less than satisfying, because that is not how people use the term "rights"-- it is used in a manner similar to "entitlement" or "guarenteed privilege".
We're talking about the basis for rights, and yes, the argument I use here can uphold entitlements or privileges. We could avoid violence and theft so that people don't have to waste resources defending ourselves individually from these threats. We grant certain rights to the accused so that people will have faith in the rule of law--they'll have confidence that if they live under our laws and work that the fruits of their labor won't be taken away arbitrarily. The meaning of the term "rights" doesn't imply anything about the origin of those rights.
Further, lets say I could demonstrate conclusively that a benevolent dicatatorship that involved a purge of 10million people was the most beneficial to human endeavors (and in certain scenarios, Im sure that is the case).
Not sure that's a great example--in times of war our own government has been prepared to kill hundreds of thousands of civilian non-combatants. Scenarios in which an American president (even a Christian!) would be willing to kill tens of millions of Americans aren't unimaginable (e.g. "Fail-Safe").
I've seen polls showing Christians even more willing to do violent "for the good of the many" actions than nonbelievers. There are interesting arguments to be had here--you can research the difference between Act Utilitarianism and Rule Utilitarianism if you're interested.
Whats best for human males might therefore be large-scale rape and pillage, and the elimination of competitors.
Or best for ancient Israelites, for that matter.
Surely that would not be defined as a right, even if I could demonstrate the above to be true.
No, societies can certainly recognize evil rights--a right to own slaves for example. Like it or not, that is definitely consistent with how the word is used. And this logic you're using doesn't work "even if I could show that assuming X would prove falsehood Y, Y would still be false. Therefore X is false" makes no sense.
Again, the word "rights" is not the same as "wants"; the two words have distinct usage.
"rights" isn't the same as "wants" just like "candy" or "sex" isn't the same as wants. Rights are another thing that people might want--either they want to live in a society where people have those rights, or they want to be the kind of person or culture that treats people with the dignity consistent with those rights.
It would make no sense to speak of rights as restricting others' actions if rights were simply those things you desired to do.
This is doubly false. Society can choose to respect whatever rights it wants to respect. The definition of "rights" or "how the word is used" is not in question here.
Of course, this argument isn't over "rights", it's over "natural rights". And if people had an instinct to respect certain rights of others, or if they were happier for having followed it, then it makes perfect sense to call those natural rights.
And once more, without that theistic higher standard, by what rationale can you declare this to be a universal truth that all have this "instinct"?
You and you're weird height obsession. We don't need Our Tallest to tell us what's in our own heads--if you have the instinct, act according to it. If other people's instinct tells them you're wrong, they'll try to stop you. Sometimes truth comes from within rather than from above.
But if they differ from person to person, it makes no sense to object to ANY action on the grounds of "rights violation", because what might be a sacred right to one might not for another.
We're talking about what rights would be rational to respect. And disagreement over rationality doesn't imply meaninglessness. Experts disagree over business plans and military strategies, that doesn't mean that all plans and strategies are equally valid.