I also love how every time I show that your argument is 100% factually incorrect or you're using precisely the wrong term, you jump to the next thing without acknowledging anything.

While we're at it, why haven't any of MY repeated questions ever been answered? Nobody's ever explained why the onus of forking should be on the established way of doing things, especially in DEBIAN.

Many people here don't hate systemd as a product nearly as much as they hate how it's being foisted on the ecosystem.

Since when does Red Hat ever make money by selling a product? They make money from the support contracts.

Definition "something produced by effort, or some mechanical or industrial process" In fact, show me anywhere on that page that it says anything about pricing or costs.

Well, apparently it could be more obvious to me. We're going around in circles here. They're the guys who wrote the software, of course they're going to vote for it. But me not taking that at face value that "obviously that must mean it's a good thing" is me displaying bias against the developers? The fuck? I can't tell whether you're being naive, obtuse, or just not effectively translating my arguments and assuming that I'm therefore an idiot.

How is binary logs not a technical argument against systemd? journald makes everybody's lives more difficult for no benefit other than "look what we can implement."

I swear, the next time I hear somebody say "you just hate it because it's new" I'm going to have a hard time not stabbing them in the eye. Sometimes NEW THINGS just happen to SUCK.

We give you guys reasons and then you stick your fingers in your ears and say "LA LA LA I DON'T HEAR ANY REASONS."

Idiot is in the eye of the beholder.

s/made up story/metaphor/g

We really bring it on ourselves by trying to be subtle online.

I find it a bit interesting that the top 3 guys listed under systemd (Poettering, Sievers, and Hoyer) are all German and, from his sig and a few interesting misspellings in posts, devent seems to be German as well.

Coincidence?

When you redefine "binary format" to mean "anything represented via 0s and 1s," sure. In the context of this argument, it means "a computer file that is not a text file; it may contain any type of data, encoded in binary form for computer storage and processing purposes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

You, the 8 guys on that Debian council, Red Hat, and Lennart Poettering are all welcome to your opinions, it just irks me that you keep denying that there's significant dissent on the issue.

Go read the systemd Wikipedia page. The top 3 developers they list are all Red Hat employees (the rest don't have Wikipedia articles and I don't really want to go digging).

Not necessarily. If they're paid by Red Hat and Red Hat tells them to write systemd...connect the dots. Maybe they (well, Lennart sure seems to, anyway) believe what they're doing is the right approach, or maybe they're just collecting a paycheck.

"Accurate communication is possible only in a non-punishing situation."

There are plenty of people on Slashdot who will tell you that neither does sysvinit need to be replaced, nor is systemd ready to do so. But we're not Debian, so yeah.

Parts of it, anyway. Aren't they still designing replacements out of whole cloth these days?

It's not a bias so much as acknowledging that they, as RedHat employees, have a vested interest in the success of systemd, their product.

If you assign 1 point to each level of the votes, you get:

First choice only: 4 systemd, 4 not-systemd
Second choice included: 9 systemd, 15 not-systemd

No matter how you swing it, all I see is that half the voters involved don't want it.

When half the guys on the board are Red Hat employees and the vote just by sheer coincidence is a 50-50 split, I'm not filled with trust.

Well no shit. Systemd is a Red Hat project, so of course it's in Fedora.

So put it on your own damn branch!

Especially considering this is Debian we're talking about, I don't understand why so many pro-systemd people are saying "if you don't like it, then fork off a non-systemd version." It's DEBIAN. Debian is all about NOT having the new unstable shiny!

Okay, maybe "significant" is a poor choice of words. Statisticians would probably get mad at me. How about "strong" instead.

Assuming I'm reading this right:

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/...

http://www.muktware.com/2014/0...

So assuming left-to-right priority, 2 votes were for "further discussion." So it was more or less a 4-2 vote with 2 abstentions. Langasek's second choice was upstart, and Jackson's second choice was sysvinit. If they both went to the upstart side--which sounds like a quite reasonable outcome to me--we'd be looking at a 4-4 tie. If a tie-breaker is necessary to break deadlock, there is NO WAY you can call it "overwhelming."

Like I said before, 50%+1 (which this vote wasn't, even) is not my definition of "overwhelming." I dare say that most people would call that a majority (more votes than all other choices combined). This is merely a plurality, among a particularly small sample size at that.

Ich kann mit Übersetzungsschwierigkeiten sympathisieren.

He's not "deciding" anything; he's just stating his opinion. Last I checked we were allowed to have opinions.

People disagreeing with you does not make them narcissistic asses.

*vendetta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...

Even if it *was* stolen, why the heck would they give him his deposit back? "Oh, I'm sorry, I lost your vehicle somewhere...can I have my deposit back that I gave you to cover this exact eventuality?" Maybe if the cops recovered it somewhere, fine, but that obviously wasn't going to be the case.