That's right, the surveillance state is a bipartisan effort. They only vote along party lines to show their voters that they don't get along even though they do.

The implicit theoretical side of libertarians is that the wealthy population increases over time. Near 100% of the US population is wealthy by third world standards. You only call it concentrated wealth because it's more than you have. What is stopping the wealthy from taking over is the government in an ideal libertarian world. Yes, contrary to your delusions of what libertarians believe, we do believe in government. A government whose role is to protect the rights of the people.

Now in this system we have now, the rich can buy politicians and they are pretty much taking over. They openly admit that the rules of governance are no longer applicable to them. Tell me again how this is working so much better...

When we cut government down to where there are taxes for just schools, roads, and libraries and things are horrible, give me a call.

Good luck with that voting people out of office thing. Don't like John Dingell? He was first elected in 1955 and has been in congress ever since... Similar stories will all politicians. Incumbents have a huge advantage and are very difficult to replace. Even moreso in a primary. So even if I vote against a candidate that will represent me, I am still stuck with their voting record and decisions...

Meanwhile in corporate crazyland, if I don't like Wal-Mart, I can shop at any number of competitors and choose not to do business with them. You can vote with your dollars and unlike votes, every single one counts. You may not be able to vote for the board of a company (well actually you can if you choose to buy stock which is generally available to the public), but you sure can choose which companies you associate with.

Where is this example of corporations taking control of governance and oppressing the people? Name one country that has resorted to revolution to throw out a monopolistic corporation. Hmm, I can think of several governments that have oppressed the people to the point where only bloodshed can change governance.

It disgusts me that all of these blatant political flamebait posts are getting +5 insightful mods. The sad part is, the metamods will probably agree.

Ahh yes, the Feds take money from the people in the states and then return it to them disproportionately and with strings attached. Federal taxes don't really pay for roads and schools, local money does.

At least that has a shred of truth to it. I'm not on the Republican's side either, but I appreciate honesty when I see it. And all people regardless of political views should agree with your last statement. Obama is a shitty negotiator... It's probably because he goes on TV and insults his opponents all the time.

That's the thing. I believe we would be better off as a nation with more saving and investing and less debt. Sure we'd probably bring in less revenue with a reasonable sales tax rate, but the government is far too large for it's own good. The consumption tax would work really well with the smaller government the libertarians desire.

A blanket tax on consumption would reduce the demand for all products. That's probably not the most horrible thing in the most wasteful society in history...

But school are paid for by local taxes and roads are paid for by state use taxes. What exactly are the Feds collecting for?

Exactly. Now that everyone can see Obamacare is a clusterfuck they try to blame Republicans. They didn't need any Republican votes and they knew it. The Republicans approval was neither needed nor desired. This is all on the Democrats and a precious TWO independents in the Senate.

Yes he really bent hard to get all ZERO Republican votes. The Democrats came up with shit and pushed it through on fucking Christmas Eve.

No, Libertarians do not believe people will place nice without the government. But rather they believe that the government shouldn't support the people who don't play nice and defend the people that do.

Libertarians believe that a bear should protect his cave because if the bear wanders out to spread their bear influence, the cave is left undefended. Having a military stay within the boarders unless provoked isn't hiding.

Basically Libertarians would rather turtle than Zerg rush.

All of these are valid problems with income tax. However, taxing income wasn't done because it was a good system, it was done because it was easy to collect. The Fair Tax and sales tax in general is a far better and more fair system. If you include a prebate or exempt necessities, it has minimal effect on the poor. It also is a system where people can intentionally plan to spend less to avoid paying taxes. Rich people will inherently have higher taxes if they choose to spend more.

The main point is that taxing something reduces its demand. Taxing cigarettes is supposed to decrease cigarette sales, etc. So why would we tax labor? Taxing consumption instead of production would give us more labor and less waste.

Don't forget the fair tax. A lot of libertarians support a lot of different tax schemes. However, no rational person can defend the clusterfuck we have now.

The official platform of the Libertarian Party is just to get rid of the income tax. It doesn't say what should replace it as there are lots of competing ideas. It also mentions reducing the size of government by eliminating programs not laid out in the Constitution and supporting a balanced budget.

Agreed, the only wasted votes are the ones from people who vote for more of the same bullshit (R or D) or people who choose not to vote because they don't believe they can change anything.

If people really voted for change (i.e. not one of the two major parties) maybe things could get better. But most would rather vote for "electable" candidates that have been bought by donors.

Gary Johnson did say he was a Republican. He even got to go to one or two debates where he was given a question or two before being kicked out by the media. He was elected as a Republican governor twice you know...

Ron Paul managed to stay in as a Republican and we saw how the party treated him. The establishment won't allow anyone not for the establishment to get on the ballot.