While the total in deposits has increased to 19 the bank has a liability to you of 10 and an asset of 9 (the loan) and a liability of 9 (the deposit) to some other guy, . So the bank has assets of 9 and liabilities of 19. So no money is not created as you suggest. Deposits increase and are created but you must not ignore the othe side of the transaction.

Seeing as sysvinit was effectively banned in debian (you could use the sysvinit compatability stuff of systemd but you still got systemd on the system, some things worked cleanly and somethings didn't).

Devuan IS providing the init freedom, by allowing the choice that was removed by debian packagers.

Going forward Devuan will not package software in a way that restricts init choice. Other inits and similair supervisor software can be installed. There are two ways for Devuan to supply a systemd init package:

1) Use debians systemd packages and try to cludge them to work with all the software that is not aware of systemd. But seeing as the other software debian packages all assume systemd is present, then constant monitoring of the requirements of systemd on those packages to work properlym would need to be maintained.

2) Completely fork the debian systemd so that it can installed cleanly and removed cleanly.

Both would require a huge effort and that is not the motivation of Devuan (that motivation would be use Systemd but package and adapt it so that it can be dropped in and pulled out as a package or set of packages without disturbing all other software)..

Seeing is the initial motivation was to create a clean upgrade path without systemd (from wheezy) or side-grade path without systemd ( from Jessie). They have achieved this. Thus guaranteeing some choice of init for debian users in wheezy and jessie. A choice that can not easily be made when continuing to use debian.

How closely Devuan is able to follow debian in the future depends how tightly integrated Debian becomes with systemd going forward. That is not in Devuan's control.

If you want Debian and Systemd use Debian. IF you want debian-like system without systemd you have a choice to use Devuan. If you want something else choose something else.

It's not quite as simple as "so much for init freedom then"

But the point is you are relying on that library truely doing nothing for evermore across upgrade after upgrade, until the day comes where libsystemd0 or whatever it is called depends itself on the systemd library, boom next upgrade you have systemd.

This happened a few times during devuan developement with reports from the alpha releases (and earlier) of 'i've used devuan sources, upgraded package such and such which has nothing to do with init and ended up with systemd again'

One of these was just due to the package including a service file for systemd but not including any calls to systemd, it therefore required systemd, for that one file to be interpreted, which was not used if systemd wasn't installed, but you ended up with systemd init as a result. It is abuse of the dependancy system, and lazy compiling of the upstream sources. The talk that you could use debian with sysvinit was nonsense when people actually tried.

Sometimes the answer was simple:

A compile time switch removed the dependancy on the 'do nothing' library. That in some cases was the only change from debian package to a devuan package. No need to change or patch the source itself.

In other cases there were actual uses of systemd api that was not necessary for the software to actually run so further source changes needed to be made to convert from a debian package to a devuan package.

Other packages (gnome et al). have been so integrated with systemd that it would be huge task to unpick.

'Well tested code' is not equal to 'used a lot cause it's there code'.

Dbus was not required for iptables to function. It is the package maintainers that make the decision that it should be included, but it is an unnecessary dependancy, UNLESS you want to use dbus to access iptables. i.e. feature creap, at the package level.

I have used iptables from the command line for donkeys years (since ipchains). And it worked. I never once thought, 'I know, I want to modify my iptables by installing X and gnome and some firewall editing GUI, to save a config file in some unknown format , so that some other service daemon can read my config file at boot and then use dbus to set the iptables rules'.

I can set the rules in an init file calling the commands directly and it's done.

If you read the devuan mailing list, when the question of systemd installation gets brought up (usually in a half baked attempt to troll) the response is "if you want systemd on devuan, install debian".

If the same counter question was brought up on debian mailing lists "can I keep sysvinit on debian". The answer was some variation of "you can (but things won't work properley) you'll get systemd anyway.We voted decision made. Sysvinit is dead etc. etc. "

The truth is that as devuan developers have found, that an awful lot of the tangle of systemd dependancies in software are there for no good reason. Sometimes it is just a compile time switch, that links in systemd, and does nothing, or just changes the log output.

But the default in debian is to use the systemd dependancy.
The default in devuan is to remove the dependancy.

This is getting harder because things are getting absorbed into the systemd eco-sphere.

On a mildly related note, of feature creep. I upgraded iptables due to a security issue on a slackware server. After a reboot I had no firewall, and log file piling up (seriously cramping my cps virtual hd). After a brief check iptables now includes a dependancy on dbus so wouldn't run (but being slackware installed cleanly), why? So some gawdawful gui can interact with it probably, or more likely systemd itself now that dbus is included in it. There was no detail about this in the docs or the changelog, so I e-mailed slackware security about it. My server has never and does not require dbus. But the default is to require it now.....

I'm sorry. Your wrong here.

The Leave argument that our own court can be overruled by EU court in exchange for tariff free trade (note this is not the same as free trade) is demonstrated in this case.
A large portion of the remain campaign tried to gloss over this fact and are still trying to state that it is not so.
Which is fine as long as you always agree with the EU Parliament.

Your first three pioints do not indicate that "it doesn't work".
Of course it doesn't work when trying to catch people who don't use the internet in those cases.

That does not mean it would not work or be of benefit to agencies once they have identified a suspect being affiliated with pre-known suspects would be able to look up the historical data and link to possible other pre-known suspects. The problem lies in guilt by association.

I generally agree with your other points however.

Windows 10?

I don't think your use cases are the same as most other consistent linux users, therefore you should have been modded irrelevant.

"Yay for privacy. We don't care about where you come from, and now you don't even have to tell anyone that you're using Debian"

but systemd reports back to those who Do care!
So everyones a winner baby!

Ducking.....

This.
No network stack if you don't load it. No problem.
Even better for hardware hacking on a pc/104 board. Get a connector to matrix board solder components. And prototype with no complications. It's a win win.

The trouble always was that some partners were more equal than others. Anyone who thought the euro was not the artificially weakened Deutsche Mark fell for the propaganda. The U.K. Has been an unwilling member BECAUSE the population were taken in under false pretences and successive pm's have signed up for more political union without a referendum, and therefore no choice, since no major party put leaving in Their manifesto. Gordon brown even snuck in the back door before signing a treaty (Lisbon) in a failed attempt to hide from the media. The first chance the public get a vote, and they vote out. Does that not tell you something?

What it tells me is that Europe was never about democracy....

But the euro has also fallen. The ftse 100 has dropped 5% yet the cac40 Dax and euro stocks have fallen more. Europe needed the uk in the club. Yet they would never accept British terms of trade such as including financial transactions within the free trade agreement. It's up to Europe to put its house in order. It's a shame that one one of the big three had to leave before the eu would do what is needed.

Which rules did the uk sign up to that they did not follow through?
U.K. Law is extremely literal to the law and European regs are followed here more strictly than over the rest of Europe.

U.K. Has had doubts over the European project from the day it signed up. 43 years later they are given another choice and they choose to leave.

It is Europe who have massively benefited from uk membership. A member state leaving was always a risk. The eu bueracracy was too arrogant and is now paying the price.

Germany also benefits massively from cheap European workers. And also benefitted massively from loans it made to Southern Europe to buy back its own products. Somehow the media have managed to make it look like the uk has an open door policy but hate all immigrants. Far from the truth on both counts. However the large companies and beuracracies have been in cahoots setting up a large trading block to benefit themselves. Even people in Poland Are coming to realise that they no longer own their own infrastructure any more since it has been privatised and bought out by international companies, but since it is called investment, no one notices. They benefit from international jobs but at what cost? I'm glad we are out since the Nhs was under threat from European threats including Ttipp however it now means we have to make sure the right wing in the uk don't stuff it up on their own. We have less people to blame. Being in control means our level of responsibility has increased.

Wrong. If it is hollow then the volume inside it increases massively whilst the skin area supporting structure increases relatively slowly.