Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×

Comment Re:Smokin' (Score 1) 357

So you need to link to a version of the document. That way if/when it changes, your original intent is preserved, and then the user can follow the version history to what's current, to also see what has changed. And if the links are bidirectional, then there's a mechanism for you to know that what you quoted has been updated, so you can then know if you have to revise your own document.

So, for example, if your document was about treating ulcers, and you linked to a document about the causes of ulcers, then when they figured out that ulcers were caused by bacteria, and updated their document, that bidirectional link could provide a means for you to be notified to update your treatment document. Version 1 of your treatment document would be consistent with version 1 of the causes document, and your version 2 could then be consistent with their version 2.

This would then reflect the changing nature of our understanding of the world, and facilitate rippling new information from one area across all other related areas.

Comment Re:Check, But Not Mate (Score 1) 342

I think we're actually agreeing on how open source software models work. I'm just acknowledging that what balances out the risk of giving up control is that there's an inherent inertia towards customers staying with you. If the inherent momentum was away, then no one would do it. And it's not so much a problem with facing competition, the problem is when someone takes the open product and gives it away for free, since their efforts are subsidised by some other revenue stream (like Google's advertising). In effect, they're leveraging one business into another. And that's a game that not everyone can play, especially not small players.

I've commented elsewhere that Sun should have known better. But they were probably busy fighting the last war, like everyone does. They were fighting Microsoft on the server and the desktop, and didn't realise the battle had shifted to the cellphone. They ignored Moore's Law, and lost.

I'm just pointing out that the legalities are less relevant. Sun's fate is less relevant. We should be concerned about the future of the open source business model, which I'm concerned that Google has fractured.

The cell phone market is now completely embroiled in litigation. Just about every company in that space is now involved in several patent lawsuits. It's going to be interesting to see what the outcome will be. Personally I believe in patents, but only when they follow the non-obvious, no prior art rule. But I can see why people are against them, when the are de facto not following the rules.

Comment Re:Check, But Not Mate (Score 1) 342

The First Google phone was released around a year ago, and so it itself must have been in development for a while, and Android must have been in development for at least a year or two before that. With Java, things were looking bright with OpenJDK, and all the JSRs that were shaping Java 1.5 and 1.6 were very community driven. And then Apache started complaining about getting locked out of the tests. So, maybe it was related to Android, and maybe it was just the pandora's box that Apache was opening.

Comment Re:Check, But Not Mate (Score 1) 342

I'm reading a lot of black and white in your comment.

Your great grand parent post explains exactly how Harmony and Google have taken from Java, and how that was enabled by the code being open.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1818368&cid=33878852

It's bizarrely ludicrous to say that Google could have made exactly the same thing, which is a clone of Java, had Java not laid out all the pieces in the open. And that doesn't address the simple question of, why did they try to make a Java clone, why didn't they just make their own unique thing, if they could have done this all on their own. Obviously they're benefiting somehow, and leveraging something, if they're bothering to clone Java instead of simply using their own language and libraries and vm. Why didn't they use Go?

Java solves very specific problems that require PhD level input, and take a lot of community feedback to get exactly right for everyone. To say that Google could have just pulled them out of their ass, and didn't hugely benefit from absconding with that, is so beyond clueless. How many man years of effort would it take to replicate these features, without in any way copying, or reading, or learning from Java code:

- The Calendar functionality of handling Gregorian calendars and all the lunar calendars, for all the timezones, with all the ever changing day light savings rules.

- All the localisation rules of the hundreds of countries in the world, for their currencies, times, dates, decimal values, etc.

- The IEEE floating point standard, which even the hardware implementations have bugs in, which have to be worked around, as optimally as possible.

[Those are the most detail oriented features I can think of before getting back to work, that have zero glitzy flash to them, which have to be exactly right, in bazillions of cases, that took years and years to implement. There are thousands of other examples in the class libraries of other problems they've solved]

Keep in mind that Google leveraged both Linux and Java, which each solve many of these issues (except floating point), and so Google has no track record of solving these kinds of problems. And they've been refined over 15 years in Java alone. So to say that Google could just throw all that together, on their own, in a timely fashion, is really naive.

Comment Re:Check, But Not Mate (Score 1) 342

I think that the open source product model is inherently brittle. You're hoping that the additional market uptake, from it being open, will offset the risk of someone forking your code and competing against you. Typically, people don't, since you're the established name, and probably understand the code better, and can add new functionality faster than anyone else who's come later to the game. But it's still a risk.

In this particular case, Java and the JVM have existed long enough, that outsiders have gained sufficient expertise, that they can compete against the originating company. And that's been exasperated by the code being more open and more available. Along comes Google, who doesn't actually have to compete with Sun, in that they don't have to directly sell their Java derived product, instead they can give it away, as they plan on making money from the apps and the advertising. So now, we've established that the open source model isn't so much threatened by direct competition, as it is from orthogonal businesses, who will take it and dissolve your market as they make money in some other, indirect way.

So while I'm generally against software patents (especially the patent troll scenario of the patent holder not having implemented anything, which is not the case here), I first and foremost want my field to be a place where people can actually make a living, and not have everything stolen out from underneath them.

Everyone here seems to revel in their little lawyer ability to talk about copyright and patents. That's great, I'm glad we're all educated about that. But it seems to be getting in the way of comprehending the simple situation of someone absconding with other's work, and collapsing their revenue stream, and how that could drastically affect future investment and development for the entire industry.

But yes, let's continue on the discussion of the specifics. Google (via Harmony) copied the java libraries. That's alright, because it's open source. And it's even more alright, because they did it clean-room reverse engineered. But, don't tell me for a second that the source being open didn't help those clean room efforts. There are tonnes of APIs that are just not sufficiently javadoc'd to get the exact same behaviour. The untainted reverse engineers can still ask questions which tainted people can answer, because the tainted people have a better understanding of the libraries, from having seen the code. And the people who've made the Java -> dex conversion, and the people who've worked on Dalvik have definitely read some of the source, and benefited from it. So, clearly, openning the source could only be done, with a hope of continuing to maintain the IP, by relying on the software patents. Without them, Sun would have been idiots to open anything up at all ala GPL.

With your WINE example, it's actually completely different, in how it actually affects Windows. Windows is a near monopoly that has resisted a lot of direct competition. WINE will never collapse their market. And WINE doesn't somehow corrupt and fork Windows, it actually tries to be as compatible as possible. Google is taking the Java community of developers, and guiding them to make apps that will not work in a JVM. They are taking and removing from the Java community. WINE reinforces the Windows community. It actually makes people less likely to develop for Linux, and instead target Windows, and tell people to run WINE. So while Microsoft might lose some box sales of Windows because of it, their developer community and market as a whole, are reinforced by it.

Comment Re:Check, But Not Mate (Score 1) 342

Way to completely miss the point. Let me spell it out for you. One way that Google monetises Android is by having an app marketplace. The more apps are sold, the more money they make. The more apps they have available, the more people want to buy Android phones. Apps are key. So, instead of using their own language and building things from scratch, they leveraged the existing Java community, which Sun had built from scratch. A more familiar development environment facilitates app creation, and so Google benefits. Had they used Go, then Android would be like WebOS and Symbian, much less popular.

Slashdot Top Deals

He has not acquired a fortune; the fortune has acquired him. -- Bion

Working...