from the people in Washington state.

they also sell other stuff. I'm more familiar with Ross, but it is the same concept. In addition to clothes and shoes they have crappy electronics, toys, kids books, towels, sheets, some furniture, pots and pans, and yes, "gourmet-ish" food. Think spices, crackers, hot chocolate, hot sauce and probably expensive maple syrup. But for every one aisle for pots and pans they will have ten for women's clothing.

http://www.lagoonpark.com/

Not the biggest. I haven't been there for years though. They have real (albeit not very scary) roller coasters.

Ignore the fact that Joseph Smith and one of the eight were gunned down by a mob even though they had the chance to run away. Ignore the fact that each of the three witnesses on their deathbed each testified that they had seen the angel and the golden plates. Ignore the fact that more than half of the combined eleven left the church at some point and were offered money to recant, even fifty years after Joseph Smith was dead, and they never took the money. There is physical, tangible evidence of the plates. . . the book itself.

Joseph Smith was an 18 year old with a third grade education on what was then the frontier of the United States. His family had to move several times as a child, his main occupation was clearing stumps, plowing and digging wells. The Book of Mormon has over 260,000 words (over 500 pages) and is a complex blend of history and theology. As Joseph Smith claims to have translated rather than to have authored the book, it has many features that has it compare to more of a Hebraic text than American Frontier English in the early 19th century. These are Hebrew writing styles and artifacts which typically aren't used in English. For example the Book uses chiasmus, colophones, and adverbials. If you know Hebrew, then you might find this article interesting:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=72&chapid=862

As for our creator's interest in our behavior, I feel it is because He is our Father. He loves us, much more than we know. Any father would be interested in the well being of his children, and the instructions given are for our benefit. Please tell me, how does a hangover feel? Or getting pulled over for a DUI? My wife was raised in a broken home by an alcoholic grandmother. His commandment to avoid alcohol has been a great blessing for me. As is the commandment to be faithful to my spouse. She is my best friend, and now that I know her as intimately as I do, it would be a tremendous sin to betray her in any way. Since she has shared with me her feelings, her secrets and her trust how could I waste that trust on another throw away relationship? A deep, abiding relationship with one's spouse is a tremendous blessing. If you don't understand this, then I pity you. I have the best friend that anyone could possibly have. You know, one day I got called to Jury duty. She came down with me to the courthouse and wait in the jury waiting room, just to spend time with me.

I also know that God loves His other children on the earth as much as He loves me, and that they are my brothers and sisters. So, it is my responsibility to love them, even when they insult me.

Oh yeah, Mormons don't believe angels have wings.

Please don't take offense, but I am quite familiar with the topic. After some people confuted the words "spiritual experience" and started the "spiritual eyes" reporting Harris and Whitmer to clarify their testimony began using much more concrete terms while granting interviews, and made sure to write and publish their own accounts. Historians much prefer first hand accounts to second hand accounts (otherwise known as hearsay). Even after some of them left the church,

Look, I have a book full of 200 first and second hand accounts of the translation of the Book of Mormon called "Opening the Heavens" Accounts of Divine Manifestations 1820-1844 right next to me. I have also read the book "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses" by Richard Anderson. Again, several accounts and let me quote

""'Do you still believe that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet?" Martin Harris, standing in the Kirtland Temple on a bright, winter day, pointed to one of the arched Gothic windows where the sun was streaming through it and said, "Do I see the sun shining? Just as surely as the sun is shining on us . . . I saw the plates; I saw the angel."

As a very old man, Martin went to Utah and spent the last five years of his life there in upper Cache Valley. When people in his community asked him about the plates of the Book of Mormon, he continued using physical objects like the sun to illustrate his testimony. One time he raised his hand and asked, "'Do you see that hand? . . . Are your eyes playing you a trick or something? . . . Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates." Martin Harris, like all the witnesses, was especially desirous at the end of his life to have people hear and repeat his testimony.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=21

Reading that exmormon.org article was frustrating as I am familiar with the sheer volume of both first and second hand accounts that it plainly ignores. Read my comment on the flawed WWII lesson. Then understand when I say when a skillful writer with an agenda (like someone who is mad at the LDS church) can ignore evidence to bolster their argument. I'm not stupid or naive, I know that you aren't going to read those books or look up the article that I provided. Just know though that we aren't bat XXXX crazy and we do have reasons for what we believe. Getting through the stuff made up by people keeps people from the real message of the Book of Mormon. Its message is that God lives, has a plan for us, that we need to love and care for others, that offensive war is evil, pride from wealth will cause society to sicken and die, it is possible to change to become holy and that Jesus Christ paid a heavy price to save mankind. Most people who talk about it have never actually read it.

my religion isn't. I am a Mormon. I guess I should be offended by what Torvalds said, but if I go around getting offended by every time somebody says something unthinking or inaccurate, then I won't live my life. Perhaps if all I knew about my faith came from people ranting on the internet I guess that I would be scared too. But here is the thing. When I find someone who makes a pretty easy factual mistake about something, I can ignore the rest of what they say pretty easily. For example. Lets say that you read a history textbook that says that Theodore Roosevelt ended World War II by dropping an H-bomb on Tokyo in 1946. Would you pay any attention at all to any analysis that that book made? If you know anything about history, you could quite easily detect the subtle yet easily identifiable mistakes that someone not quite in the know would make. If you didn't know any better, you could conceivably believe the person. But you would be wrong.

OK, so how does that apply here? You said, "golden plates that no-one ever saw". Now, if you knew even a smidgen of Mormon history you would know about the three Witnesses and the eight Witnesses. In fact, their testimony is printed in every Book of Mormon. Each of those eleven men to their dying day never denied seeing the plates. Some people after interviewing them tried to explain away, or spin what was said so Martin Harris and David Whitmer countered newspaper accounts with their own newspaper advertisements. Even fifty years after the fact, after Joseph Smith was long dead and the LDS church was in Utah, Whitmer 1000 miles away safely in Missouri could have easily denied his testimony but expressed the truth of what he saw and said on his deathbed. He even had it engraved on his tombstone. To state that "no-one ever saw" the plates (or claimed to have seen the plates) is a serious misrepresentation of historical record. So, any further analysis that you might bring is "objectively and obviously" incorrect.

Most of the stuff deemed "bat XXXX crazy" really comes from people and books who falsify and misrepresent our church and its beliefs. It is very disappointing that people who consider themselves intelligent and open minded really aren't. I guess it is ok to make fun of us, just realize that you are being a bigot while you do it.

So, the next time you have something glib to say about Mormons, just run it by a real Mormon first. We'll tell you the truth.

are "fundies". At some point when most people are children, their parents explain to them that repeating jokes ad nauseum isn't funny. Your comment isn't original, it isn't amusing, and isn't relevant to the conversation. That is probably why you were downmodded to a troll.

For what it is worth, not having a part of me explode during surgery sounds useful. The award of the report about the report about the report about the report does sound like a Monty Python joke though.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

I am a practicing Christian (a Mormon to be precise) and while I would very much agree with most of your comment, this verse came to mind. (although I think the restoration of what you speak came a few centuries after the reformation)

I think Christ knew the discord that his message of peace and love and charity would cause - how sadly ironic. Personal and societal change is very difficult, what with the cognitive dissonance and all. We aren't much of Christians unless we do what Christ Himself did.

and I am very happily married man. But I can definitely see an advantage for men having women in college. In fact, not having women is, well, kind of odd.

I used to live in Argentina and knew a lot of Italian immigrants. Perchance are you referring to polenta and gnocchi?

if you have to add the word "science" it probably isn't. Biology? Science. Chemistry? Science. Physics? Science. Political science? Not so much.

The Newton/Leibniz invention of integral and differential calculus rates as one of the very greatest achievements of all time. It ranks as high as any work of literature or art. I don't know if someone could not be considered educated if they haven't studied it, let alone pass algebra.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints = Mormons.

Just thought you'd like to know.

If you are going to mention the coastal survey, why not also mention the Lewis and Clark expedition? The "Corps of Discovery" was a huge cartographic, biological, geological, and sociological enterprise. They took the best scientific equipment they could, charted rivers and mountains, kept daily records, and brought back samples. They didn't know what was in the Rocky Mountains, and Jefferson told them to find Mastodons.

Lewis was Jefferson's personal secretary, and Jefferson made sure that Lewis had all the scientific training possible at the time. I'd say that pushing through the funding and planning of the mapping of the the Rocky Mountains, Missouri River and Columbia River ranks up there with the dumb waiter.

This comment doesn't deserve a 5 funny rating; it deserves a 6.