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Comment Re:Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

Sorry can't click on the link at the moment, but I have no problem with government regulations to handle negative externalities like polluting your neighbor.
I have a problem when government gets so big they can tell me and my neighbor what to do in any and every minutiae of daily life, and take half of what I earn or more.
Taxing to the hilt that by which all other goods and services are transported is more certain to have a detrimental effect on the economy than a potential creeping up of temperature.

Comment Re:Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

People are arrogant to think they have the science perfectly right without validating models' predictions on more decades or more Earths.
Arrogant to think humans must be the only cause of problems.
Arrogant to think "woe is me/us"
Arrogant to think they know better than all those little people who disagree
Arrogant to think they know the solution
Arrogant to think their solution will have no flaws / side effects.

Comment Re:Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

Point 1: That one is pretty near zero doubt: NASA data. There are other sources as well, and even anti-AGW folks usually acknowledge a rise.

Yup, that's a given, but you have to start somewhere, and temperatures have been roughly flat since 1998.

Point 2: Too vague to answer usefully, because "significant" is not defined. That means that a pro-AGW and an anti-AGW will see the same data and come to opposite conclusions about whether it's significant.

Exactly - it's a valid point of debate, that also feeds into discussion of 6, 7, 8 (as opposed to dogma of pro-AGW folks). There is a point, (e.g. 10C/yr) where it's simply fact, but we're not there.

Point 3: Probably yes - ... this is a reasonably accurate hypothesis. This is about as close as we'll be able to come to a definitive yes without a couple more planet Earths and a few centuries to test things out more thoroughly.

My point exactly. It's reasonable, but there's a lot of reasonable doubt here without more Earths and more centuries, and certainly not a validated scientific truth.

Point 4: Probably yes (see point 3), but even if not this isn't entirely relevant. If it's caused by something else (cow farts, volcanos, etc), we still need to clean up the mess if we're going to survive.

It goes to #5 - if it's orbital fluctuations, we probably can't fix it.

Point 5: Almost definitely no. The reason is that those with the power to do something about it have a vested interest in not doing anything. In other words, the problem is politics, not science.

There are many politicians who would love to do something about it, because it gives them more tax dollars, greater authority, and reinforces that feeling that they know better than the peons.

Point 6: Most studies on the theorized effects of global climate change on economies give this one a definite yes. Although the sea level thing is the one that's entered popular culture, the problems include desertification of farm land, water shortages, increased number and strength of tropical storms / hurricanes / monsoons, and the political fallout from all of those (starving homeless people tend to do desperate things like start wars).

It seems to be popular culture these days to theorize on the disasters that could befall mankind. The point is there could be upsides, like perhaps farming in Siberia and Canada that could feed millions. I for one am not arrogant enough to assume that the optimal temperature of Earth is what it was in 19XX.

Point 7: All of your listed actions are pretty much fantasy. What most governments are actually talking about is regulating the emission of CO2 in much the same way that they've regulated the emission of SO2.

Cap and Trade would cost trillions... why do you say I am dreaming?

Point 8: Fairly high, for the reasons laid out in point 5.

Yup - another reason not to monkey with things we don't fully understand.

Basically, the way I see it, there's a problem, and we're absolutely screwed because those who might be able to do something effective about it don't want to. There's just too much short-term gain in doing nothing for anyone to really do something.

Well you've acknowledged (admirably) that there is doubt in some of these things, so I say if there's doubt in the existence of the problem, doubt in the extent of the problem, doubt if it's even a bad thing, doubt in how to "fix" it, and doubt in whether or not or fix would make things worse, I doubt we should be doing anything drastic about it.

Comment Re:Yep: Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

#6 was intended to invite us to think about the possibility of it actually being a good thing, and what the optimal temperature of Earth is, irrespective of political consequences.

I contest that spending power has gone up due to free markets, the more government interferes, the slower this goes up.

Good moral argument about Spaceship Earth - I agree we can't be screwing it up irretrievably. I don't think we are doing so. While Earth isn't a 100% closed system, it's not like we're bleeding off our atmosphere into space - the carbon will still be here in 500 years in the air or in the ground. If it becomes economical to sequester it at that time, then future peoples will do so.

Powerful Statist governments killed >100 million people in the last century. I see this as a more immediate and real threat to us, our children, our grandchildren and theirs, so I fight anything that moves in that direction (left).

Comment Re:Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

1. & 2. are settled science. There's always some "doubt" in science, but not in the way you use the term. People like you, or more accurately the people who tell you what to think, profit from muddying the waters. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt... it's not just for software anymore!

No one tells me what to think. I give you that the planet has warmed is fact, but it's been roughly flat since 1998. #2, it's debatable whether the temperature rise is significant, or alarming.

3. & 4. are irrelevant. Who cares whose fault it is? If it's going to disrupt our lifestyles, we should try to stop it. This is just some religious fundie bullshit. "Oh, there's no way humans could affect God's plan!"

They go to #5. If you assume 1+2, you have to ask whether it's part of Earth's natural climate fluctuations, because if it is, then burying every Hummer isn't going to do squat. Nothing religious at all here, don't know where you got that.

6. Yes, if you believe the science, the consequences would be severe. Not the end of the world, but a drastic reduction in quality of life for billions of people. But instead you've chosen to believe that all the scientists are in a big globe spanning conspiracy.

You're putting words in my mouth, I assume no such global conspiracy. I only ask that there be a rational debate where the pros of a warmer earth be considered also. Could we feed millions more if the tundra were arable? A large chunk of the total dry land is near the poles.

Billions poorer, governments richer Bullshit! ... your statement should have been "oil execs poorer, working class richer".

Do you not understand economics? Oil execs set the price of gas. You pay for gas. Higher taxes means higher prices for working stiffs like you and me. The governments won't mint gold necklaces, but they will take a cut, and distribute the rest to who they see fit, giving them more influence and power.

8. "Wind turbines causing warming." That story was revealed to be bullshit in the comments of Slashdot.

Sorry I didn't have time to read those comments. I'll take you at your word. No rebuttal for all the other government disasters?

Comment Re:crazy (Score 1) 735

I don't mean to speak for the parent poster, but here's my 2 cents:

"Tell me who benefits from "bigger government" as a completely abstract concept." - Government employees, government funded researchers, politicians, and the businesses they write earmarks for, etc. Pretty simple really...

"possibility that atmospheric composition affects planetary cooling rates." - We can acknowledge this without accepting with 100% certainty that current models that statistically fit old data can accurately predict future temperatures. We can also disagree about the potential effects, and politically what to do about it.

"How do you come to the conclusion that the government is bribing scientists?" - They're funding most of them. Not bribes per se, but grants flow to those the government approves of.

I believe most of the scientists (and most of the believers or "shills") are not part of a conspiracy, or getting paid by the government to create propaganda. But they are "jumping straight to" the "easy conclusion" that because the Earth has warmed for a couple decades, "it's all humans fault, and we need to tax somebody right now to avoid Armageddon".

Comment Re:crazy (Score 1) 735

Conservatives are not what you say they are - I like to think of us as practical libertarians

We want less government, but not anarchy.
We want lower taxes, but everyone to pay their fair share (e.g. flat tax)
We want people to live moral lives, but we don't want a powerful state to force them to do so.
We want government to be as local and accountable as possible, with the federal government much smaller.

Fascists are Communists are both Totalitarian Statists. Only the rhetoric is different. Fascists are nationalist and say they don't own the businesses, while Communists are populist and say "the people" own the businesses, but in both cases the state controls everything.

Conservatives want a small state, exactly the opposite of your fallacious cry of "fascists!"

Comment Re:Wrong Questions (Score 1) 735

Does it mean millions dead?
Are you a fortune teller? How do you know?
I for one can outrun a sea level rise of 3mm / year.
And don't give me crap about hurricanes and flooding. As long as people want to live right on the ocean, they will be killed by bad weather no matter where the shoreline is, or what the temperature is.
And you're missing the point - which is that it could be exactly the opposite, perhaps millions more could be fed if the tundra became arable land.
The economic part is not to be dismissed either. The richer someplace is, the better off the poor are. Just look at the poor in the US with TVs and cars vs. Ethiopia. If we have global taxes and environmental regulations depressing the world economy, that means billions are worse off (and maybe dead, but I won't be as arrogant as you to assert that as definitive).

Comment Wrong Questions (Score 4, Insightful) 735

They're going about it the wrong way.
You don't want people asking themselves why they care whether the Unabomber believed in AGW.

You want them asking the right questions:
1. Is the planet warming?
2. If yes, by a significant amount?
3. If yes, is it human caused?
4. If yes, by a significant amount? (say >=30%)
5. If yes, can we reverse it?
6. If yes, should we reverse it?
7. If yes, do the risks of not reversing it outweigh:

- taxing your breath
- crippling the world economy
- billions of people poorer, governments richer
- any and all other power grabs and loss of freedom that result

8. If yes, what are the chances we'll make it worse by trying to fix it?

There is a lot of doubt added for each of 1-6 (especially if you're a good scientist/engineer with healthy skepticism), enough that there's not good reason for any politician to even look at #7.
Only 1-5 are actually science/engineering. The rest are political questions.
Anti-AGW people like myself just like to point out that there is uncertainty in 1-6, and even if there wasn't, the answer to #7 is most certainly "NO".
And for #8, here I cite the Aral Sea, the tire reef, solyndra, and the recent article about wind turbines causing warming as examples of wonderful government environmental "successes".

P.S. If you're taking 1-6 as truth with zero doubt, you've got a religion.

Comment Re:No one sees... (Score 1) 397

"For whatever the reason(and we both fully well know the reason)" - I hope you don't mean racism, I hope you mean that we have a Marxist for a president.

And I hope your denigration of "extremist" "nutcases" isn't aimed at the Tea Party, because they tend to be rational, hardworking taxpayers that just want some fiscal sanity. (Ever been to one of the rallies?)

Your main thrust against the "far right" and Ron Paul seems to be the idea that they want to eliminate all regulations. I know of no one who wants to do that. The recent rhetoric during primary season etc. about reducing regulations is in reaction to the administration's extending federal power and bureaucracy (via regulations) that strangles businesses and taxpayers. One example (to bring it back to climate) is the EPA labeling CO2 a pollutant. Another would be them blocking the Keystone pipeline.
In short, the conservative position is not "Rape the Earth - have at it!"

Comment Re:No one sees... (Score 1) 397

It's not a logical fallacy if it's definitional, e.g. "All vegetarians don't eat steak" --> "I'm a steak-eating vegetarian" means you're using the word "vegetarian" wrong.
I say if there's to be any meaning and definition behind party affiliation, good/true Republicans are for less taxes, less government.
Though I take your point and agree, there are a lot of bad politicians calling themselves Republicans that love to spend and grow government power, e.g. W

"After all, what kind of person runs for office with the idea of reducing his or her power?" - The founding fathers, and any and all other people that share their philosophy of limited government... I don't want to mar the point but Ron Paul comes to mind.

Comment Re:No one sees... (Score 0) 397

I was trying to get strikethrough format and clicked the wrong button. (do you know how to do strikethrough?)

I meant to use your own phrasing:
Democrats benefit from spending because it gives them money to send to people, and those dollars often go to the special interests, who then return the favor by giving enormous kickbacks, er, donations to the Jackass Party. And at the same time, they get to gain the clear electoral advantage that comes with a government-dependent subclass, ensuring that they get to keep their nice, cushy jobs.

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