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Microsoft

Wince at WinCE's New Name: 'Windows Powered' 238

Posted by Roblimo
from the we're-really-and-truly-not-making-this-up dept.
Lycestra writes "CNet has an article stating Windows CE is being renamed. In the spirit of such names as Office, Money, and Explorer, it is being renamed "Windows Powered". I expected something more like 'Poke-Windows'."
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Wince at WinCE's New Name: 'Windows Powered'

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  • Compact Edition, I thought. I'm sure I've seen that in official literature somewhere. Then again I'm probably talking out of my arse.

    --

  • "It's just as slow, completely unstable, and 1/8 the size."
  • Yeah, where the hell did *that* come from? Trust a PC company to have absolutely no clue about UN*X, not even what they should call it.

    Mike.

  • Then change the name, force preloads by sending Vito to the OEMs, and pay companies like AT&T BILLIONS to use it.

    How many times has M$FT done this in the name of innovation? Please don't answer this question, disk space is a terrible thing to waste. :)

    Locutus
  • According to Brad Chase, MS VP of Marketing, Windows is "the most popular software brand name in the world." That helps us understand what MS is doing here. They are not claiming that a "Windows Powered" handheld is running the Windows operating system. They are not committing to a unifying the WinCE/WP code base with the W2K code base. They are not even changing the WinCE operating system itself.

    All they are doing is unifying their products under a familiar and popular brand name, and hoping that people will think "Windows? That's what I'm running at work/home, so I've got to get a Windows Powered handheld, too." They're obviously hoping that the brand name recognition will pull WinCE/WP out of the market share hole that PalmOS has driven it into.

    Yes, it's pure marketing drivel. Yes, it's silly. Yes, it's misleading. But hardly surprising, unfortunately. Perception is often more important to sales than reality.

  • and here it is in clickable form:
    http://www.salon.com /media/col/shal/1999/11/30/naming/index.html [salon.com].

    Its pretty entertaining, these people are crazy:
    It's this sort of chutzpah that makes the namers at Landor see red. "The Internet is filled with arrogance," says Amy Becker coldly. "You might have a provocative, fun name. But do you have the basis for a lasting brand? We still don't know how compelling a brand Yahoo will be 10 years from now. I sense a real missed opportunity."

    "Let's put it this way," says Redhill. "Over the years, we have created and sustained many of the world's most durable brands. We make a lot more hits than companies who think up their own symbols and names. I'm not suggesting that a company couldn't get it right with a stroke of insight or genius or luck. But if it's your own brand, how can you possibly be objective? I mean, would you name your own baby?"
  • If you have a look at that code... it's been sitting there since, well a long time. It certainly is not an example of open exchange of information.

    before you jump around like a loonie calling people clueless, get a clue yourself.

    Of course, this message will be moderated down and called flamebait as are any posts critical of /. usually are.

  • While professionally employed as a geek, I am at heart a fiction writer, and I wanted what ammounted to a keyboard with some ram, a way to enter the ideas I get when I'm away from my computer without having to transcribe my sanscrit like handwriting.

    At the time I was looking around, the only palmtop device with a keyboard that was in my price range was the Cassiopeia A-10 and A-11, both WINCE devices. I needed a keyboard because I type much faster than I write longhand, even on the tiny handheld keyboard.

    Soon after my purchase, I learned that WINCE Services were a joke. I couldn't use my Internet connection while having my palmtp connected (they both use dial-up networking) and the freeware Filegram utility was spotty in its performance at best!

    A month after I bought my new toy on e-bay, they came out with a keyboard for the Palm Pilot, and I was kicking myself for my mistake. If only I had waited! If I had just been more patient I could have had a bigger keyboard, more software, a supported device and easier syncronization!!!! ARGGGG!

  • by delmoi (26744)
    OGL does not run on top of DirectX. Infact now Hardware companys are spending more time on OGL drivers then Direct3d drivers now, beacuse Quake and all its dirivatives run on GL. Since quake is the 'standard' in gaming, cards that run quake better sell better. (This is especialy true of nVidia.)
  • I have four of them in a Mitsubishi Lancer (that's Dodge Eagle (?) for some of you). Rear ones are crappy, they've died on me twice. Their, dare I say, architecture is just not up to the job. OTOH the UI is ok -- simple, minimalistic, and intuitive to boot.

    This post wants to be moderated down (-1, Offtopic).
    --

  • by delmoi (26744)
    Java is proprietary to.
  • Well, you're definitely a WinCE (or Casio Exx) zealot, but you need to remember, not everyone fits your same situation. My Palm III is worth much more to me than my E100. It has a longer battery life, it will sync with ALL of my computers, and it's significantly smaller. Sure, it's fast, and the screen is nice, but it attempts to be too much. The pen based interface is limiting, to me, and if I need anything taken down, I use the palm. Sure, playing mp3's is nice, but it's not that great. I haven't done it yet, but using my E100 (functionally the same as the 105) to browse a webpage or IRC on it seems like it would be rather pointless. A Libretto or some other sub-mini-nano-notebook makes much more sense in that situation. Playing solitaire in color got me a lot of 'ooh cool's but otherwise I was largely dissatisfied with my WinCE devices (I've had others, one an HP/C and they were all much too large, and the battery life was much too short, in my experience)
  • Ok, "Compact Edition" was technically correct, but I couldn't resist! :)
  • *Ahem*

    Windows CE is not proprietary

    *Cough* *Hack*

    Yes it is. :^)

    • based on Win32s libraries
    • Using common Windows objects
    • has a common gui

    • Proprietary (show me the open standards body in charge of the Win32 API not under MS's employ and then I'll concede your argument that it's not proprietary)
    • Proprietary
    • Since when did having a common GUI have anything to do with proprietarship? CDE for Unix has a common GUI too but that's still proprietary.

    On the other hand, what other PDA uses any features that *are not* proprietary

    Personally, I'd like to see what Cygnus's offering (Eros I believe its called) is doing... I heard they made a couple of deals. Open Source embedded OS's are definitely on the way. Till then I'll stick to Palm (hopefully I'll actually get one later this year).

    ta-ta

  • You know, I do have one of the older WinCE palm-clone doodads that I got at a closeout sale. I put new batteries (2xAA)in when I got it, haven't used it for the last two months, and last I checked (last night?) the batteries were dead. Conversely, my Palm's 2xAAA batteries usually last ~1.5mo, while I've been on the same 3 AAA cells on my HP48 calc for the last two years. And I do use both often.

    I have only seen Pokemon once (ok, half an episode; I was about to go into convulsions), but I understand there's something about them needing to suck energy from something or other.

    See, the analogy does indeed work.

  • I think what is meant is that using the term 'Windows Powered' may imply to the consumer that the device is compatible with (or powered by) the Windows OS when it is really just a useless hack-job. OTOH you can argue that this 'OS formerly known as CE' can be referred to as a member of the Windows family.

    IANAL, but I guess it could get a little sticky but nothing that their legal department cannot lie--uh...talk their way out of.
  • by Millennium (2451) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @05:18AM (#1490888) Homepage
    Oh, great. Now you've got me started...

    "Jupiter Netscape Crash!"
    "Mars Pentium Processor Ignite!"
    "Venus Beowulf Chain Encircle!"
    "Mercury Microsoft Blast!"

    And of course my favorite...

    "Moon Kernel Compilation!"

    Sorry about the dub attacks; they seemed more appropriate somehow.
  • Millions of clueless users will buy digital TV-sets with "Windows Powered" logo.

    Microsoft main goal is to monopolize digital television.

  • by Zoltar (24850) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @05:21AM (#1490890)
    I respectfully disagree with you.

    First, yes MS has been putting some major resources into their W2K push, however I don't feel that relates directly with the palm market. MS has such enormous resources I really can't believe that they are limiting efforts in one area due to any other area.

    Second, I don't think MS wants to *just* have a market presence in any market, they want to dominate. (As any company would)

    Third, I think that MS misjudged (thus far) what the palm market wants. They probably assumed that the standard marketing methods combined with their powerfull distribution channels and the Microsoft/Windows brand would allow them to win by default.

    Fourth, If they learned anything from their early (lack of) internet strategies it was that you shouldn't underestimate the potential of any given market. The palm/wireless market might be small potatoes today but it is poised to explode over the next few years. I really don't think they want to miss this boat.
  • The problem with Windows CE is that MicroSoft cannot make much money of it. The hardware prices are dropping, and nobody will pay TOO much for a palmpilot. If the palms get as expensive as laptops, people will buy a laptop. palms need to cost less than half that price, preferably even less than a third.

    Then microsoft suddenly faces a problem. How much is it possible to get paid, for an operativ system for these thingomajigs? Not much -- if we want to believe Eric S. Raymonds -- who had made this one of "The 7 bullets Microsoft need to dodge within the next 18 months".

    And this is one of the points I think he is right about. Just look at all the hardware makers abandoning CE. :-)


    --
  • by kmcardle (24757) <(ten.aihpleda) (ta) (eldracmk)> on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @02:41AM (#1490892)
    Back in the 1970's, Japanese car companies were very quietly working to make their products better, cheaper, and more fuel efficient.

    American car companies were changing the positions of the headlights.

    I'm sure ms could have spent the marketing focus group money on hiring some talent to make wince better. Or they just could have bought Handspring (is that right?) and manufactured Palm clones. Oh wait, maybe the DOJ would have frowned on that. ;>

    --
  • by Anonymous Coward

    From Babelfish, the first sentence reads:

    With the next version change Microsoft wants to rename its luckless Bonsai operating system Windows CE.

    =)

  • That about sums it up...

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • Is it me, or does that thing sound like (ahem) Prince?

    You know, the old saw: "The Operating System formerly known as Windows CE..." =)
    Sorry: "The Operating System formerly known as WinCE..."

    And what does that "CE" stands for? "Crash Extremely fast"? "Carry Excess bagagge?" "Could not Exchange data with desktop?"

    And what about the new name -- "Powered by Windows"? Why not "Crashed by Windows"? That's more like it...

    Don't you just love heaping scorn on the largest software company in the world? What are we going to do once it has faded back into a richly deserved irrelevence?
  • by dingbat_hp (98241) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @02:55AM (#1490899) Homepage

    I think the consumer cares [...]

    I don't.

    I think they used to. Back in the days when PDAs were rare and expensive, they were bought by geeks who cared about such things. Now we're moving to a more mature (sic) market, where they're bought by the naive, or bought as gifts, and sold by the untrained and simian. Increasingly, the only differentiable features between PDAs will be the logo on the case and an inaccurate display card on the shelf at Electrode Hut.

    Take a walk through Electrode Hut sometime and listen to people buying real retail products from the real retail sales chain (all shrinkwrap developers should do this regularly). They don't understand the technical issues, and if the sales staff even mention them, they frequently get it wrong (the number of mis-sold Palm IIIe I over-hear !). Maybe you and I know that colour means unusable battery life, but very few retail purchasers do.

  • No, it's art [africana.com]. (BMA website is here [brooklynart.org]) I think it's time to hand the guy a couple copy of windows for positive use.)


    CY
  • Java is proprietary to.

    Wrong.

    Java is a trademark. Java standards are open. There are several open source implementations of it. They are just not called "Java" because they have not licensed the Java trademark. They still run Java code and that's the important part.

    Sun is walking a fine line trying to keep ownership of Java while keeping it open. There's a lot of whining going on about what Sun is doing, but the fact is that you can run Java Freely (if the FSF meaning of "free") if you want.

  • I think Windows CE is one good thing that has come from Microsoft. It's small, reasonably fast, and easy to use.

    But the new name? Ugh. All the devices say "Powered by Windows CE." Now, they get to say:

    Powered by Windows Powered.

    A bit redundant, no?

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • and for the scottish version of mini-win, you happen to get either:

    * Fat Windows
    or,
    * Bastard Windows

    *p.s. no offense to the scottish... BTW, if it's not scottish, it's CRAP!
  • Absolutely! I can't find hardly anything IN Win-CE, or Windows for that matter, that isn't proprietary. The only things that seem to get made in some semblance of standardness are those that get crammed down Micro$oft's throat! (Can you say JAVA?)
  • CE stands for Compact Edition.
  • by Dr. Sp0ng (24354)
    hehe

    "Software is like sex- the best is for free"
    -Linus Torvalds
  • . I'm sure ms could have spent the marketing focus group money on hiring some talent to make wince better. Or they just could have bought Handspring (is that right?) and manufactured Palm clones. Oh wait, maybe the DOJ would have frowned on that. ;>

    Well, (a) Hawkins and Dubinsky would likely slit their throats before selling Handspring to anyone, let alone MS, (b) Handspring doesn't own PalmOS, 3Com/Palm Computing does, and (c) MS doesn't make handhelds, it just licenses WinCE (or tries to!) to people who do.

  • Powered implies it will work right? How about Mini-Windows?
  • Maybe those same riceboys could install some of those Clarion AutoPCs in their Civics; then they could also apply decals that say, "Powered by Windows Powered."

    Ah yes, English at its best.

    < tofuhead >

  • I own a Casio E11, E10, and a E105, One of the Two is an HPC, i've never right tapped on,

    On the H/PC, go to your desktop sometime, hold down Alt, and tap one of the icons. That's your ``right tap''. Anyway, the thrust of that point was originally that the reason I dislike CE is because they are trying to fit a desktop metaphor into a handheld or palm unit, and I don't think it makes sense. Tom Christiansen's recent article on interface zen [slashdot.org] explains it better than I can.

    And I beg to differ that free != good. In the world of development tools, the freer they are, the better -- because you can count on more varied applications being available as well as lots of apps that will mimic the freeness of the development tools and will be able to be improved on by many people. CE seems to, probably because the devel tools are so expensive, encourage locking up of apps and code.

    Anyway, I can see we're not going to reach an agreement on this one. :-)

  • Linux is already very well suited to this, then, for two reasons:

    (1) The window manager is seperate from X _AND_ seperate from the kernel. This means that new cut-down versions of the WM and of X can fairly easily be tailor-made for embedded-type products. (Also can be replaced with relative ease...)

    (2) The source for all the different bits are free, so _anyone_ can write a new Window Manager!!!! If we ever get a linux embedded system similar to the Palm Pilots, not only will people be able to download ne apps into it, but also new interfaces! Kewl!

    -Shane Stephens
  • also have a look at this article [heise.de] by c't (german). use babelfish [altavista.com] to translate it. it has some interesting thoughts why microsoft changed the name.

    --
    www.game-over.ch [game-over.ch] - Jesus rules!
  • Computers Everywhere.

  • well this salon story gives some explanation.
    http://www.salon.com/media/col/shal/1999/11/30/n aming/index.html
    i think it the story is almost frightening.

    palop
  • So the ad would go "Mini-Win, you complete me!"

    --

  • if I were a manufacturer of WinCE h/w I would be VERY unhappy to have it labelled as "Windows Powered" It hides the fact that I make the h/w and gives the impression that the product is supplied by Microsoft.

    More companies are going to look at Palm and wonder if they really need to feed a percentage of their sales profits to an already overweight MS.

  • the thing is so resource-hungry, you'll need access to mains power to run it for more than three minutes!

    Wouldn't it just guarantee victory for our side if Symbian went open source? How come the hardware manufacturers don't realise this is in their interests? "The Magic Cauldron [tuxedo.org]" makes it all fairly clear...
    --
  • Those are good, check these out:

    WinCE instead of Palm? --> Fiend! A complaint we sew!
    microsoft wins case? --> cosmic software sin
    microsoft office development? --> development is of comic effort
    Gates versus Linus? --> Evil ass, gurus sent.


    =8^/
  • You know, WinCE has been around for quite a while (never doing very well, but been out a while) and they never had a problem with the name.

    I may be dense, but it was only recently that I saw a post pointing out the "wince" moniker and had a good chuckle at something I hadn't recognized before. Has this reference been around a long time, or has it recently become more popular? Has the mainstream media never picked up on it before?

    Perhaps we slashdotters/techies/geeks/truly intelligent beings have more power than we think. If our use of the term has the potential to bring it into use in the mainstream... could this be the reason for this change now? The desire to do some revisionist FUD and try to head off this allegedly derogatory reference at the pass?

    Well, it will always be "wince" to me. :) And I hope to all of the rest of us thinking beings... You can change the name, but the truth will tell. Although the truth often has a difficult time against M/$ FUD...

    Of course it's still called "Boulder" Dam to me, not Hoover. And, damn it, I learned to spell Czechoslavakia in the 5th grade (could do it in my sleep the way the teacher drilled us), what am I going to do with that little piece of now useless knowledge?

    Enough of changing the names of stuff. ;)

    Russ
  • This once more emphasises how important marketing has become (or remained) in the computer industry.

    We all know how version numbers are inflated for marketing purposes. Using dates such as Windows 98 or October Gnome actually make sense though, being release dates not version numbers, which is a lot more comprehensable by the public.

    However, it's not that simple anymore as product names are completely revamped as well. Windows NT is now called Windows 2000, the single-user variant will now be called Millennium instead. And now Windows CE is called Powered.

    Looks like Redmond thinks that renaming a product throws away all the legacy and actually makes the product better. Unfortunately the marketing droids are actually able to sell that story to a lot of people too.

  • by konstant (63560) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @02:58AM (#1490929)
    Microsoft has been fighting to get it's feet into the market of non-desktop computers. Looks as if they didn't succeed.

    I disagree. My impression of Microsoft's efforts in this arena is that they are reserving a slice of market/mindshare in the palmtop market so that they don't have to "get their feet in" when the company really decides to care.

    Most of the recent Microsoft promotion has dealt with Windows2000, a system clearly designated for machines well out of the palmtop range. M$ is aware that the market may eventually pay more attention to palmhelds, but their most recent mantra change from "A computer on every desk in every home" to "Great products anywhere anytime" is more oriented towards providing "services" from Win2k servers to PC users. Microsoft apparently thinks palmtops will be used to access those services, but it does not envision the PC obsolescing any time soon. If and when the palmtop becomes a truly large market (on the scale of the personal computer) then M$ won't have to claw its way into a PalmOS-dominated market. It will at least have a name and presence to trade upon.

    However, this does not diminish the possibility that a stripped-down Linux version might do something similar in the mean time. Otherwise we'll all be demonizing The Monopolist Palm in 10 years :)
    -konstant
  • "Under Microsoft's vision, Windows CE-based devices will simply be one more thin client for server computers based on Windows 2000,"


  • What... Microsoft, misleading? Are we talking about the same Microsoft?

    Chris
  • I always thought it stood for "chaotic evil"
  • I recently got a palm III, after comparing them to WinCE devices. I decided I wanted the extra battery life and a OS designed for a small platform, not a cut-down-yet-another API to support version of windows. So they rename WinCE, so people will still realize it's still the same ball game. The PDA game goes on. It's been said before, but spiliting windows into so many versions is *very* bad, you gotta admit, no matter what your views are on MS.

    But one thing is sure, "Windows Powered" probably aren't gonna be better than the current WinCE crop. MS should just break down and liscence/use/enhance either PalmOS or EPOC32 or some other suitable PDA OS, imho. I don't think I'm the only one who sees no future in WinCE, thou IANASE (I Am Not A Software Engineer)

    David


    bash: ispell: command not found
  • Re-nameing WINCE won't help all that much. A properly written version would. (Yes, I KNOW a properly written piece of software is beyond the scope of Micro$oft but it's still true.)

    Somewhat Off-Topic: The only thing that I had a problem with was that most manufacturers have, until recently, put WINCE into ROM giving us no other option. If it's flashable at least we'd have the choice to test it for ourselves and decide which we want to use.

    Does anybody know if the ROM thing was a MS requirement early on?

    Regardless of all that - unless the O/S has changed much they'll probably continue to lose out to Palm(tm) or Visor(tm) on sales. It's hoggish for resources and very proprietary - end of story.

    I think it's the "If we can't dazzle them with brilliance..." routine.

  • Errr...but it IS running a product called Windows. Sure it's some dodgy scaled down version, but it's still part of the Windows "family" and hence can be called Windows.

  • You're absolutely right. "Windows-powered" (which should most certainly be hyphenated) is an adjectival phrase. It can't be (correctly) used as a noun.

    I am not looking forward to this latest mutilation of my language... :P

    Vovida, OS VoIP
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • I do this with "Designed for Microsoft Windows 98" stickers. My favorite applications so far have been the fire extinguisher next to my desk and the urinal in the men's bathroom.

    Happy sticking!

    Vovida, OS VoIP
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • The explorer shell is only one shell ...and designed for use in PalmPC and HandHeldPCs. I think it's fine - but not particularly great on Palm-sized PCs, but there's NOTHING to stop you replacing the shell with your own "more appropriate" shell.
    Infact, I think CASIO ship a nice one with the E105.

    I don't like the Palm default myself, and I usually install applauncher.

    BTW WinCE devices can run the Palm Emulator fine too.
  • So soon even the Microsoft marketing machine will be describing its new apps as "Running under Powered"..?

    They really do need to start running these names by people before announcing them.

    --
  • by Q*bert (2134)
    Too many people will think the label "ARM powered" on devices means you have to wind them up. :P

    Vovida, OS VoIP
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • I knew it wasn't exactly the most up-to-date code release out there, but something's there and it's certainly better than useless. Which some people seem not to recognise, unfortunately. That's what I was complaining about.

    Interesting to see that I'm not the only one fed up with the moderators :) Slashdot tends to be rather less open minded than some people seem to think IME.

    Greg
  • What does an open body have to do with proprietary?

    Microsoft set the standard of PC's, like it or not. Through monopolistic practices or just through luck, microsoft has built the standard and developed them through Win32's.

    And through the existing standards, YES. the WindowsCE devices are NOT proprietary, but an extension to the products that microsoft offers (albeit a bit smaller, but very much so an extension)

    Even *WITH* a governing body, a standard is proprietary until you and i adpot it. and really, it isn't a standard until its adopted hehe..

    But hell, i can even connect my CE to linux, and other unices, it uses a standard serial port to do so.. unlike the USB port on some other well known models :)

    i'm not defending *anything* except that my lil windows ce based Cassio E-105 works beautifully, as advertised, and as sold. And so have the 2 other Handheld PC's with WindowsCE.

    friend or foe of microsoft, thats not my issue. But the work being done, microsoft changing the marketing, repositioning the product shows that they work, and that they are sticking it out in the market. a far cry from whats commonly posted on here and other "news" sites.

  • OpenGL.

    doh!

  • There *are* other corporations, American and otherwise, that do far more morally reprehensible things than Microsoft.

    I regret that this may come as a shock to some people here.

    There may actually be other companies out there which are disliked more, and by more people.

    Mea culpa, I guess. If I hadn't gone off-topic with my post about Microsoft programmers we wouldn't be fighting over just how evil Microsoft really is.

    I'll back away from ethical issues here and focus
    on what I consider my major (and least offtopic) point: Never underestimate the abilities of Microsoft's R&D people. They are, as individuals, a match for open source people.

    The difference - the thing that makes open source people all dewy-eyed - is the great potential in writing the best software you possibly can without worrying about controlling a market or trying to fsck up as many competitors as you can.
  • He's saying that the entire interface is ill-conceived for the hardware. The windows metaphor doesn't translate properly to palm PCs and he used the right-tapping "feature" as an example.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • > The current beta of Win2k has a bootup screen that says "Contains Windows NT Technology".

    Since W2K is newer, shouldn't that be -

    Contains New Windows NT Technology

    Or, if they're referring to older stuff included from NT 4 -

    Contains Old Windows NT Technology

    Or maybe just -

    Contains Old Technology Formerly Known as New


    Of course, either way they'll have to rename Windows NT to Windows OT.

    --
    It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
  • by DrCode (95839)
    Some of us who've been around Unix for a few years remember "Mince" as a commercial derivative of emacs, where "Mince" stood for "Mince is not complete emacs".
  • The difference between Microsoft and the chemical companies and rainforest loggers is that the chem. companies and loggers simply do their thing without giving much thought to the problems they cause, wheras Microsoft actively tries to cause problems.
  • Not really... Malda makes periodic releases, whenever he gets the chance to stabilize the code, and clean it up.

    It's not like slash is a well-planned, formal project with a CVS server, and a design committee.

    Though, I would hope that the andover.net purchase of slashdot would give him more time to clean up the codebase, along with adding features.
  • And what does that "CE" stands for? "Crash Extremely fast"? "Carry Excess bagagge?" "Could not Exchange data with desktop?"

    Caveat Emptor

  • Has anyone played with one of these? I like the PDA+MP3 thing, but not sure about WinCE. But now that it will have Powered Windows, I might reconsider it *joke*.

    Seriously, has anyone played with these or WinCE devices in general?

  • Constructive criticism noted. :)

    I guess I cant spell Czechoslovakia in my sleep after all.

    That will teach me to type and proofread before I am truly awake. Maybe my future posts should occur later in the day. :)

    Russ
  • This reminds me of when I bought a Psion. The sales 'bot tried to tell me it was "100% windows compatible" because it was bundled with the PsiWin connectivity package.

    When I asked what memory capacity the various models had he said "They never run out of memory because you can put these little cards in them".

    *bangs head on counter and walks out of shop*
  • by Black Parrot (19622) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @03:16AM (#1490960)
    wee Windows prod

    down, swore, wiped!

    worse down, wiped!

    wiped, drowns woe

    we do per Windows

    owed per Windows

    we respond "widow"

    redwood WINpews

    endows Word wipe

    weep, disown Word

    And this interesting pair:

    we window dopers
    pro windows weed

    Get yours at http://www.anagramfun.com/cgi-bin/anagrams.cgi

    And remember - Microsoft is the master of marketing, so take a clue from them: if your product doesn't sell, change it's name!

    --
    It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
  • I think you've hit on something with your reference to the auto industry -

    Micorsoft is trying to get Detroit to use WinCE to manage the power windows in their cars. Then the price tag can say,

    Windows, powered

    --
    It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
  • and our nations IS tech crew take off in fighter jets to bomb finland? :)

  • by cybrthng (22291) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @03:24AM (#1490967) Journal
    Windows CE devices are great. The OS may not be the best, but they work.

    Figure this. My Cassiopeia E-105 has 32 megs of ram, i have a compact flash IBM MicroDrive with over 340 megs of storage.

    I get all of the following features

    Music MP3 or WMF

    PIM Software

    Not only music, stereo sound

    65K colors, active matrix screem

    Small, sturdy device

    WindowsCE lets me code easily for network applications, it lets me surf the web, port over existing applications, and follows the same legacy as the Desktop OS.

    Windows CE makes a powerfull embedded OS. Infact it may do too much for being embedded, but it works.

    I've long since ditched all my other PDA's and handhelds and enjoy my handheld pc.

    Plus, i've got GCC compiling WindowsCE binaries for mips processors now, and will be releasing a Cygwin based version for people to download, and i will help support open source applications under WindowsCE because WindowsCE gets the job done, and rather well.

  • I essentially agree with you on your points about why Wince has problems -- forcing inappropriate metaphors and techniques onto the UI for handheld device.

    It is worth pointing out that Unix learned this long ago. The GUI in Unix is not bound up in the OS itself, like it is on Windows. Even if you run X, the "look and feel" can be changed at will. This is one of Unix's greatest strengths.

    Linux does an even better job. One of the reasons Linux scales so well between platforms is that you have the complete source. Thus, if you are targeting an embedded system, you can reconfigure the kernel to exclude inappropriate and unneeded parts, and recompile.

    I am not sure if the X protocol would be appropriate for a handheld device. On the one hand, X tends to have a lot of overhead, enough to swamp a device like the Palm Pilot. On the other hand, hardware keeps improving all the time, and having a single protocol for the low-level graphics interface has some nice advantages. I've used a prototype of Compaq's Itsy, and it runs X on a credit card sized screen with no apparent performance problem. And the ability to run a program on a big machine, but have it display on a handheld with a wireless connection, would be very cool. I think only time will tell how this will turn out.

    Of course, if you went the X route on a handheld, the UI toolkits used by most of the software for the handheld would have to be different, or you run into the same problems as Wince. But building on the foundation of X would still have advantages, and you could run a "desktop UI style" program in a pinch if you had do.

    Anyone else here remember PC/GEOS from GeoWorks? It was a GUI for MS-DOS that enabled multitasking, long file names, and more cool stuff, all on an 8086 CPU. There was also a version of it for PDA's (Tandy's now-defunct Zoomer being the most popular one to use it, IIRC). One of the really neat things about GEOS was the fact that the GUI functions were abstracted before being presented to the applications. Thus, you could take a program from the desktop version, put in on the handheld, and its UI would change to a pen-based metaphor automatically. Very cool.

    Just my 1/4 of a byte. ;-)
  • There must be some old meaning to CE!

    A lot of people have been saying it means "Compact Edition", but I always heard "Consumer Electronics". And if you think about it, Microsoft would never call it "Compact Edition", because that would admit that "regular" Windows is not compact.

    There are also the jokes:

    - Crashes Easy
    - Crashed Everything
    - Caveat Emptor
    - Chaotic Evil
    - Cannot Execute
    - Complete Excrement
  • We can go from WinCE to WinP. Either way you accurately describe your computing experience. Works for me.
  • by Gurlia (110988) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @03:33AM (#1490987)

    Ahh, the wonder of configurability in Linux! As I've said couple of times already, I believe that to do something well, you've got to have that thing as your focus. In this context, it means that for an OS to integrate well in a palmtop, it has to be configured, designed, for palmtops.

    Now the beauty of Linux is that it's not inseparably bound to a particular GUI, like Windows is. The Linux kernel can be adapted more easily than Windows can to the palmtop platform, IMHO. But of course, only the kernel and a few basic system apps should be the same as a PC Linux configuration... an X server, or KDE, etc., may not fit very well in this scenario, and attempting to shoe-horn things is always a sign that something is not quite right with your configuration. What we really want is a UI that is specifically directed at palmtops. Anything less than that would simply not fit.

  • by Zigg (64962) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @04:13AM (#1490988)

    Congratulations, you have found the device that you want for your needs.

    I had a handheld CE device for some time. Its touchscreen recently broke so it's only usable with the keyboard. But even before then, I had the following beefs with it:

    1. Its scheduling app was not something that made sense on a handheld or palm-based device. It felt just like a copy of Outlook (which ties in with point #3, btw.)

    2. The traditional Windows GUI metaphors just don't work on handheld devices. I mean, come on, we're going to simulate right-clicking by holding down Alt and tapping?

    3. It only syncs with Microsoft products. I can't emphasize enough how terrible that really is. I've been slowly migrating to FreeBSD and Linux more and more for all my ``desktop'' work. They do a good job of being compatible with each other. However, my H/PC, as well as Outlook itself (which can import iCal/vCard but can't export them), hold the data I've trusted them with very close and don't let it go.

    CE just bothers me. Its interface is unintuitive for doing what I expect a handheld or palm unit to do first and foremost -- calendaring and contacts. I'm getting a Visor [handspring.com] as soon as I can. (Ironically enough, where I used to work, an engineer recently sold his Nino after having offered it for several months. But another tech who has a Palm III just mentions in passing he might be upgrading to a newer Palm and there are already three people lined up to buy it.)

  • And it's common practise for businesses and politicians to register a trademarked name across as many domains as they can. So are you whining like a 2 year old because you wanted slashdot.org or because you want Rob to pay you for slashdot.com?
  • Customer: "My palmtop won't turn on"
    Help-Desk: "It's run out of batteries"
    Customer: "No, it doesn't use batteries, it's Windows Powered"
  • My Toshiba Libretto, only slightly bigger has the following features:

    • Dual-boots Win95 and Debian Linux
    • 850 MB HD, upgradable to several GB
    • 640x480 24-bit color active matrix screen
    • stereo sound if you've got headphones
    • small but totally usable qwerty keyboard

    Well, you get the point. It fits in my coat pocket, and is great at doing mobile computer tasks. It's not so great at being a PDA -- so I've got a Palm Pilot too, which is a lot better at those functions than either the libretto or a wince machine.


    --

  • I'm sure if they thought that WinCE had any value as a brand/name they'd have kept it, so this is obviously basically "it's not WinCE, really!" name.

    It reminds me of the forever leaking British nuclear power station called Windscale. The Government's eventual reaction to the continuous Windscale bad press was to rename it Sellafield!
  • It's like those morons who buy a Honda Civic HF, and slap V-Tec stickers all over them.

    I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
  • This is a misconception that is unfair to the individuals who work as programmers at Microsoft. It also may cause many free software advocates to underestimate Microsoft's programming abilities. Microsoft has some excellent programmers - even the WinCE team must have some first rate people. The problem is that these folks are often forced to do hideous things to the code for the wrong reasons - for marketing purposes, to subvert desirable standards, to present a moving target to prevent cloning, for backward compatibility with decade old hardware and software... If Microsoft programmers were allowed to write the best software they could - period - without worrying about screwing the competition or subverting existing standards, they would have some of the best apps and OSes in the world. But they don't, because Marketing and Management have fsck'ed up their programmers with many often conflicting requirements. This isn't just a programmer dilemma, btw. Those of you following the trial will probably notice how often, and how badly, Microsoft's execs lied during the trial. They repeatedly shot themselves in the collective foot (partially)by trying to cover too many bases. Dislike Microsoft as a corporation if you wish - I certainly do - dislike specific Microsoft executives if you wish, but don't slag Microsoft programmers as a group. They're no less competent and no more evil than any other group of programmers.
  • by rc-flyer (20492) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @03:49AM (#1491016)
    Boy, the number of totally clueless and blind readers never fails to amaze me. First you have this non-sensicle posting about freeing the source (even though the source code for /. has always been available, look at the number of /. powered sites out there), then you get a few other idiots who don't even bother to read a previous reply which specifically states that the source is available and even where to find it.

    I don't even know why the original posting was moderated up. Seems like a moderator was also clueless (which makes sence, considering that the moderators are also the same clueless idiots who read and post these totally stupid comments)

    Before I get flamed for this, the source code for /. is available at:

    http://slashdot.org/code.shtml [slashdot.org]


    Their only requirement is that you link back to /. if you use their code.
  • I can't believe you're getting so upset over something you're wrong about :-) Yes, the SLASH code is available, but it's pretty out-dated. The current Slashdot system has a bunch of new features that aren't in that release. Also: For a site that advocates the GPL so much, why is Taco releasing SLASH with an advertising clause? I don't care how much he says he loves Open Source -- his actions speak volumes about his real feelings.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • by Forge (2456) <kevinforgeNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @02:14AM (#1491030) Homepage Journal
    Wince was appropriate, it made sense. Every time somebody asked me to configure a Wince based palmtop for a PC, I winced at the thought that a power user would need help. Then I winced at the difficulty of doing it myself.

    Now It's "Windows Powered" which can be abbreviated WinPed, [pronounced wimped], for what people do when faced with the new levels of difficulty in using this thing. A few clients have already winped out and gone back to Palm.
  • This name seems too blatantly misleading to me. The implication of a logo that says "Windows Powered" is that the thing that the logo is on is running a product named Windows (or contains a "windows chip"). It's a bit like naming an electric car "V8 powered". Believe it or not (given what some companies get away with), there are some rules against this sort of thing.
  • "When you buy a device, you buy a complete thing--it's not like a PC where you can upgrade the thing whenever you want to," said Phil Holden, product manager for Microsoft's Windows CE group, in explaining the change. "When we're talking to the broader consumer, it's pretty clear that customers care what the device does, but not so much what the underlying operating system is."

    I think the consumer cares about a device that works without crashing, that runs quick, and doesn't drain power so you don't have to drag several sets of batteries around with you.

    This name change will generate hordes of clueless users that will come back to vendors asking "It says its Windows powered - How can I install Microsoft Office 97 on it?"

    Microsoft should concentrate on getting it to work right, and getting it so that its compatible with Windows. If thier programmers were as good as thier marketing people, I don't think anyone would be complaining so much about Microsoft.
  • so what if microsoft owns it, its documented, its been duplicated on Unix, duplicated within OS/2. Everything is "owned" or "copyrighted".

    I can buy a package to let me cross compile win32s apps under linux, solaris, hpux and such. You can buy the source.

    There is a difference between proprietary and free. Say you have the Specs to MP3, thats the same information you have from Windows. You have the Specs to the API, But you have to lease the decoder from franhaufer or however it is spelled or write your own. Just like microsoft, you would have to lease the rights to the api or write your won.

    But the specs are out, you can buy a 3 book series that describes them all in detail.

    Microsoft may A) Own it B) Wrote it C) Use it, but it is the standard and therefore A) not proprietary B) Fully Documented C) Portable (ahem.. powerPC, Mips, X86, Arm).

  • The new pejorative.

    It'll catch on before "Windows Powered" ever does.
  • And the point is?? Buzzword bingo again, sad thing is it actually works. People fall for the nice shine the M$ marketing merkins put on things. You can spray paint rust, and it may look like new, but it's stil rust, and it will still crumble eventually.
  • not really.. more like calling a car with dunlop tires dunlop powered
  • The article says:
    By de-emphasizing "CE," which never actually stood for anything anyway, [...]

    Surely this is wrong? There must be some old meaning to CE!

    I mean, NT used to stand for "New Technology", although Micros~1 newspeak nowadays denies that. I can't believe they use a name that do not have any connotation.

    Lars

    --
  • You forget that Microsoft must be free to innovate. So if they want it to sound like their gadgets get their power, ie. charge or energy-source, from Windows, they must be free to reinvent the english language for the benefit of the unenlightened consumer.

    - Steeltoe
  • This name change will generate hordes of clueless users that will come back to vendors asking "It says its Windows powered - How can I install Microsoft Office 97 on it?"

    Oh, but you can. Well, sort of. For example the WinCE PowerPoint allowed you to edit the title of your presentation!

  • by Markee (72201) on Wednesday December 01, 1999 @02:33AM (#1491104)
    Microsoft has been fighting to get it's feet into the market of non-desktop computers. Looks as if they didn't succeed.

    Linux can and must learn from this.


    Same OS for different classes of devices is good for the company, but not necessarily for the customer. A software company can reduce maintenance costs by reducing the number of code bases. However, having the same look and feel for a Desktop PC and a set-top box or a wristwatch is, in my opinion, not desirable.
    A UI that was designed for choosing among 20 or more applications, switching back and forth between them, adding and configuring hardware and do extensive networking and interoperability is not the ideal UI for, say, a handheld device that features three applications, syncs automatically when in the cradle and must be usable by everyone who learned how to read a clock.

    Why is the Palm OS more successful in the palmtop arena? Because it is not an adapted desktop PC OS, but a genuine handheld device OS. (Imagine it on a desktop PC with a mouse - wouldn't work!) I hope that Linux won't make the same mistake. I'd love to see Linux on a lot of sub-PC class devices, but please don't expect it to feature a full-blown X server or even KDE or whatever. Make it a small, efficient, stable and secure Linux subset with a dedicated user interface. Let Microsoft go astray on its own.
  • CE = Compact Edition

    The original vision for CE would be that it was every that Windows 3.1 was, except smaller and ROMable.

    My guess is that they failed.

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