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SGI Releases IDE 133

Posted by CmdrTaco
from the couldn't-they-have-found-a-better-name-tho dept.
johnrpenner writes " SGI has released "Jessie" - an open source development environment for Linux. It provides an advanced IDE (integrated application environment) with comprehensive debugging tools and a highly graphical interface that eliminates the need for employing older command-line tools." However there doesn't seem to be linkage to anything more than a press release.Update: 09/21 11:41 by H : Check SGI's Jessie site for more information.
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SGI Releases IDE

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  • Point me to a decent, preferably open source, Java debugger and I will add the Java support. I started doing the support based on JDB, but found it came up, well, "a little short".

    -Dean
  • You do know that gcc works for 5.3 WITHOUT the IDO.

    Download gcc
    http://reality.sgi.com/ariel/freeware/
    Download header & linker
    http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/sgi/gcc-irix.html

    Done, No fuss No muss.
  • It currently does C/C++, Java, and Ada. If you add the other languages, please please please send them back to us.

    Add more languages to the syntax highlighting is quite easy and I can give you the simple instructions offline, if you wish.

    -Dean
  • Read the licence more closely, they can revoke your binary or source licence at any time.

  • To RMS, they Qt Free Edition licencing is fine. It has a similar effect to releasing Qt under the GPL --- RMS doesn't promote commercial software at all.

    Also, the person/group who "Rubber Stamps" "Open Source Licences" is the OSI at opensource.org.

  • It is possible for there to be a Free UNIX for Emacs to run on. There is no Free Java, and I'm not sure that there legally *can* be one.

  • I believe that Kaffe (www.kaffe.org) is "free", done in a clean room fashion.

    -Dean
  • The key word that I believe you skipped over is definitive. At the rollout of Jessie, it said that there were no IDE's, but that was false because a bunch had just been released, such as CodeWarrior, and I changed the wording to reflect that.

    XEMACS isn't an IDE in the truest sense, it is a great editor with the ability to run tools from it. If that were considered an IDE, vi and tcsh (or bash) could also be considered an IDE. I don't know anything about the Nirvana editor, so I won't comment on it.

    Jessie exists, runs, and you can get the code for it. There is still a lot of functionality to be added to it, but by giving it to the world, we are explicitly looking for input on what functionality is important.

    -Dean
  • but what do I know

    That's what we're all trying to figure out! Apparently not much guaging from your many tiresome and repetitve posts.

    You feel ripped off. Understood. Now go have a snack or something, eh?



  • I did enjoy running jessie to get script errors because the person who wrote the shell script doesn't know their scripting languages very well. They put...

    #!/bin/sh

    at the top and then to used

    export PATH=$PATH:...

    which is a error in "sh" because it's "bash". It's sad when you can't even get past the first 15 lines of code.

  • Maybe you've not heard of GTK/Javascript [gsu.edu] ?
    --
  • While I don't exactly like IDEs all that much, much less "a highly graphical interface that eliminates the need for employing older command-line tools." (If I wanted a pretty GUI to keep me away from my computer, I'd use MacOS, damnit. As far as debuggers go, I'm still pretty happy with gdb), since my favorite girl's name is Jessilin, an IDE named "Jessie" seems pretty cool (should have been spelled "Jessi", though, IMO :).

  • I'm pretty sure that it's being in Java rules it out of the class of RMS "Free Software" as it requires propritatary software to run. (It may be an open standard, but I don't know of any Free JRE)

    I'd also think this violates (at least in spirit, if not in practice) the OSI "Open Source Principles".

    It doesn't really matter if it's released under and Open Source licence if it requires closed tools to run.

  • Damn. Now I have that stupid song stuck in my head.
  • I was just going to say that! It was posted last month right?
  • Finally good IDE tools for Linux
  • vim, gdb, and a working make prog are all you really need.

    Eric
  • It says it is written in "Java script", giving developers the broadest cross-platform support available.

    Come on.

    Really?
  • by SimonK (7722)
    Where's it say that ? It has a termination clause, but that doesn't say that Sun can terminate at any time, only if they consider the license to be broken.

    Anyway, its a shrinkwrap license: unenforceable.

    I haven't seen our source code license, but I'll believe you on that count.
  • by Signal 11 (7608) on Tuesday September 21, 1999 @09:58AM (#1668788)
    You really want to go to this [sgi.com] link instead.

    --
  • Hi,

    I already posted a feature about this "jessie" (If I'm not mistaken)..
  • by Anonymous Coward
    http://oss.sgi.com/projects/jessie/ ftp://oss.sgi.com/www/projects/jessie/download/
  • I thought this was old news. I remember myself reading about "Jessie" a while ago, here on slashdot. http://slashdot.org/articles/99/08/27/0846234.shtm l


    But then again, I might be off the edge here.

  • by The Musician (65375) on Tuesday September 21, 1999 @10:03AM (#1668793) Homepage
    Linkage...

    A bit of the license opening material (trimmed):

    SGI grants permission to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense and/or sell copies of the Original Software in both source code and executable form...
  • >
    > I'm pretty sure that it's being in Java rules
    > it out of the class of RMS "Free Software" as
    > it requires propritatary software to run.
    > (It may be an open standard, but I don't know
    > of any Free JRE)
    >

    There are other Java's available that are much more "free" (in an RMS sense) that Sun's version, such as Kaffe. Unfortunately Jessie doesn't currently work with Kaffe, but that is currently being looked into.

    In all the Jessie demos to various luminaries (including ESR and Miguel) that I have given, the issue has never come up as a problem.

    -Dean
  • Doh! That will be fixed shortly. Hazards of developing on a system with: /bin/sh -> bash

    -Dean
  • If anything is going to be Free, it should be that wich is required to make a program run.

    If Sun wanted to, they could suddenly go "Nope, no-one can use Java any more". This is bad.

    Talk to RMS about this, he could clarify the situation further.

  • For commercial development, the Qt libs cost about twice as much as VisualC++ and NT4.0 WS. combined.

    Is this true? Do you really have to pay a license to develop commercial K applications?

  • Dude. I already had that song stuck in my head.

    How can I find a woman like that?
  • Yes - if you keep the source closed. Funny how the Qt and KDE supporters gloss over this little "problem"

    Please see http://www.troll.no/pricing.html

    Price List Qt/Unit - 1 Dev + 1 yr service/support - $ 1,550 DAldredge
  • by ffatTony (63354)
    gcc and gdb are good enough for me

  • But it does bring up an interesting question. Why didn't you simply use ddd as a starting point? DDD is the best damn debugger I've ever encountered and its already GPL'd, portable, well documented, and widely used.
  • >Funny how the Qt and KDE supporters gloss over this little "problem"

    Why do you see the Qt commercial licence as a "problem"?

    GPL = no commercial/closed source development
    LGPL = anything goes.

    The Qt commercial licence offers a middle ground of sorts - if you want it for free, you have to distribute source. If you want to write closed source commercial apps, there is a strong financial incentive not to. This deters the proliferation of $10-40 closed source shareware apps that plague the Windows world. As far as I know, there's nothing to deter people from creating closed source GNOME apps.

    IMO, Troll Tech has found a great way to support themselves (through commercial support and licences) while providing the Open Source community with a great toolkit free of charge. If you don't pay, you have to deal with the 'GPL-like' terms of their licence. Where's the problem?

    MBA
  • I enjoyed this section more than I thought I would. I'm always interested in info on available IDE's as well as their pros and cons. It was interesting to see how quickly KDevelop is gaining proponents.
    Whether or not it's an outstanding product in it's current form, kudos to SGI for contributing to open source, and being savvy enough to have Dean diligently peruse these ./ postings.
    Oh and before I forget, the KDevelop boosters didn't seem to notice what seemed to be the most important potential with Jessie: it's "focus on scalability, providing multi-process and multi-thread support for large applications".
    We can only gain from this contribution.

  • SGI is being an honest and productive participant in the Free Software community. Be nice to them and help them out! I wish Sun had SGI's policies regarding free software.

    Thanks

    Bruce Perens

  • > I tried 0.5, but it was pretty miserable on my machine (RH 6, blackdown, 300Mhz, 128 MB).
    > After the second window opened, it grabbed all my ram, and about half my swap. Everything
    > slowed to a crawl, and ps showed dozens of processes. None of my other software does this.

    On my machine (RH 6, blackdown 1.1.7v3, dual 350Mhz, 256 MB), with a simple toy program, I see
    that there are 3 processes attributable to Jessie

    gdb 1.54 MB
    sh ./jessie .51 MB
    java 11.52 MB

    what other processes are you seeing?

    -Dean

  • I've seen similar on Oracle 8i Enterprise, at $2400 per concurrent user.

    #!/bin/sh

    setenv PATH /oracle/bin:${PATH}

    ORACLE_HOME=/oracle/
    export ORACLE_HOME


    ---
    FEH! Mix and match your shell!

    Chris

  • We actually considered doing that. DDD has some very nice qualities. We especially liked it's data display capabilities.

    There are several reasons that we didn't just start with DDD.
    1. It is very difficult to retrofit non-debugger functionality into a debugger and come up with an IDE that is intuitive and extensible. Our team has tried it before and lived with code that has had that happen to it. Not a pretty sight.
    2. We wanted this to be truly cross-platform, including NT and non-*nix platforms. Qt vs. Gtk wars were raging then and they are raging still, albeit with more civility. I personally evaluated Gtk and found it to be quite reasonable. Qt was dismissed because of its licensing issues at the time. Java and Swing provided a very rich and consistent GUI toolkit.
    3. We have spent literally years designing the infrastructure to create a powerful, intuitive, and extensible environment. It isn't fully filled out yet, but the missing parts will come.
    4. Scaling was of the utmost importance to us. Like trying to retrofit IDE stuff onto a debugger,
      retrofitting scalability is just as bad. Ask any debugger folks that have added things like thread support and other SMP constructs.
    5. We wanted to build an infrastructure that was usable for other complex tools. Look at VA Linux's VACM [valinux.com] product and think of what it would be like using the Jessie infrastructure [sgi.com].

    There were several other reasons that have been lost in the mists of time.

    -Dean
  • So is Emacs running on Solaris not free software then? The GNU tools were running on proprietary Unixes well before Linux came into being, but that didn't make them any less free.
  • That's pre-6.5. You get everything you need to run gcc with 6.5.
  • http://freeware.sgi.com/
  • Can you please send me your email address? I have a coupla questions before I wade into this issue too deep. No salesman will call ;-)

    -Dean
  • Check again. http://freeware.sgi.com/ http://reality.sgi.com/ariel/freeware/ You get everything you need with 6.5.
  • These days where seeing a lot of graphical tools to develope for linux (like the one from metrowerks for example this one and the one already present in the community)
    All these tools are equivalent.
    They all use the same compiler: gcc/egcs. What really cares IMHO is the code generation process not the way the source code is written and the makefile handled.
    Good news is that chip makers are giving components to the gcc/egcs project (Intel gave many hours to the project and those changes will be incorporated to the 3.0 release of gcc, Motorola gave the egcs project all the needed thing to the support of altivec)
    What is needed to improve ggc/egcs and all linux applications is competition on the compiler tools. Has everyone could observe the competition between KDE and GNOME was an overall good thing for the two project and the community in general.
    Competition is available on the beowulf/normal intel platfrom (you can buy absoft fortrant that comes whith C and C++ too)
    Competition will soon appear on Alpha (thanks compag for this move, apps are getteing from 10%-30% speedups and up to 50% speed ups for fp intensive apps)
    Since linux is cross-platform the bad news about this competition is that it's not available on all platform and every platform will have its own optimoise compiler so will still use ggc to compile the kernel :(
    I'de like to see a real cross-platform compiler arrise from the linux world which is as good as commercial products.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    /* Begin Quote */ Place the needed pieces on your freeware site and I'll shut the fuck up, because right now I'm just getting going. /* End Quote */

    When this happened in IRIX 6.2, SGI made freely available (even without shipping costs) the IRIS Development Foundation (IDF) which is all the headers and libraries and utilities that gcc cant provide (such as an assembler), basically everything except a compiler.

    When IRIX 6.5 came out, because the demand for the IDF had been so high, they included it with the base OS again. They didnt realize how many users ran gcc and didnt know that so many people wanted the IDF. Once they found out they were mistaken, instead of giving it away on request, they included it in every copy of the next all platform IRIX release.

    I dont mind people complaining about valid points, but it was always there for anyone who bothered to use the search function on SGI's website.

    For anyone who currently wants the IDF for 6.2 as they haven't or cant upgrade, while they normally do not ship the IDF out anymore, you may be able to get it from SGI if you ask nicely. Nicely does not include comments like the ones in the previous post.

    One more point I would like to make though. If you check the GNU binutils package, specifically under IRIX, there are some required things just not available. What do you do when the open source free product you may want to use just doesnt have the proper capability to function in the enviroment? Nobody can tell me it is SGI or MIPS fault that there is no gas for IRIX.
  • Infact it isn't based on Java at all. Both Javascript and Java where independently developed, but both were based around the same base languages (e.g. C, C++).
  • What aspects of Code Crusader make it superior to vim for big editing jobs?

    -Dean
  • by Pengo (28814) on Tuesday September 21, 1999 @07:02PM (#1668835) Journal

    Hmm.. It is so damn funny..


    I have never seen more complaining in my life.

    I just came from the Corel thread, COMPLAIN COMPLAIN COMPLAIN.

    SGI Gives away a new IDE.. COMPLAIN COMPLAIN COMPLAIN.



    The funny thing is, I don't see people that actually contribute to the compunity complaining.


    Dean from SGI seems to be running around answering questions, trying to please you babies.



    Just show a bit of grattitude.
  • Disclaimer, I haven't run it yet.

    Pros:
    + The gprof analyzer looks really beautiful. Maybe not as powerful as NuMega TrueTime or Rational Quantify, but very promising. But definetly better than reading raw gprof output.

    Cons:
    - Java. I really don't like Java on Linux. But I will give it another try with this application. Maybe it will be my first usable Java application.

    - The data displayer does not look as powerful as in i.e. DDD.
  • > - The data displayer does not look as powerful as in i.e. DDD.

    Not yet anyways ;-) We are putting alot of our development resources into that portion right now.

    If you are interested in keeping up with our data display advances, please consider grabbing from the source tree [sgi.com].

    Also, please feel free to send us [mailto] your data display requirements AND wishes. Data display is a key area because of its importance in the development of serious scientific software.

    -Dean
  • by Kerg (71582)
    If you're interested in writing debuggers for Java then you might wanna take a look at Java Platform Debugger Architecture (JPDA). This is where JVMDI falls under as well.

    JPDA provides the infrastructure needed to build end-user debugger applications. It includes Java Debug Interface (JDI) which allows you to do remote debugging, Java Debug Wire Protocol (JDWP) which defines the protocol used between the debugged process and the debugger application, and Java Virtual Machine Debugger Interface (JVMDI) which lets you hook up to the guts of JVM.

    For more info, go to the JPDA Home Page [sun.com].
  • Or this one [slashdot.org]. ;-)
  • "They say it's in Java - I have heard of that before.... here... Oh, they call it JavaScript, that sounds far more impressive!"
  • I'm not sure why they are calling it an IDE. The web page states:

    Implemented largely in Java, Jessie provides the portable and extensible framework that can be expanded into a full IDE. [emphasis mine]

  • sure, it's implemented in Java, and designed to run on Linux, but my question (not meant to inflame or invite scorn) is, will this thing run on an NT box, and permit development to the dreaded Win32?

    Howzbout Mac - ie. will it run under Mac OS (MRJ) and let you write Mac OS programs? (either Classic, Carbon, or Cocoa)?

    "The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
  • We were able to demo it successfully using an NT version of GDB. That was awhile ago, but the changes, as I understand it, were truly minimal.
  • Can one of the numerous AC's please enlighten me as to what particular critical pieces are missing?

    I do 99% of my work on Linux and all my Irix development machines come fully loaded, so I haven't stumbled over this problem.

    If you give me the information, preferably without it ticking, I will take it up the chain and see what I can do. I aint promising nothin', but I *will* try.

    -Dean
  • Oh great, so all that GNU software I used prior to 1990 didn't really exist. Some people have short memories.
  • They should fix their mistake and apologize.

    Why do you think they are embracing Linux? Their machines are cool and when Linux runs natively and the GIMP goes 3D, they could fight the macs in High End Graphics (after getting whalloped by NT). Remember the Titanic!

  • Cool! To be honest, I checked out the site pretty quickly when this link was posted and based a lot on the screen shot. You might want to update it and add more to really show what it can do. For those of us still at modem speed downloading everything to test it out can really suck up what little bandwidth we have. I'll send you a features list as soon as I get a chance to review it (probably over the weekend).
  • by SimonK (7722)
    No, they couldn't. Sun can stop licensing their version of the JDK is they wanted to, and stop licensing the trademark similarly.

    That doesn't stop the existing binary licensees and even some source code licenses continuing to use their software. Similarly it does't stop anyone else supporting the language, or developing environments for it.

    In other words, Java would be in the same situation as a every other language ever invented.
  • Haven't seen anything yet that matches the PB & IB
    from NeXT... so I think I'll stick to good old VIM :)
  • I'll do that. But first I must at least try it. So much to do and so little time. ;) Since Jessie is oriented towards one window, I think that a similar approach to Visual C++ is the way to solve it. The classes and structs are displayed as a treeview, where every member is one node.
  • first of I would like to thank the team @ SGI !!!!

    ok down to it

    jessie is an IDE ? last time I looked it was a very nice debugger and performance tweaking tool!

    what needs to be expanded well I write lots of different code and I wonder if you can have MULTIPLE windows of code this is a MUST in any IDE ! why do you think most system Admin open many xterms sure they could just use the console switching but being able to look @ lots of thinks @ once helps

    UML ugly I know but how about actually designing software. Shocking I know but few of us have to sit down with a pen with a linux box while in windows the tools are there. I am sure that there is an open source UML tool somewhere but where ? and being in Java would help Jessie.

    if its an IDE how about syntax checking and autocompletion.

    and how about running a tool to produce documentation there are several javaDoc is good and I know their is an open one for C and C++ how about letting us produce decent documentation (a help browser would be nice could be a HTML help if using 1.2 but then that's one for the team)

    these are ideas SO WHATS WRONG ?

    lastly thank you to Bill and the team @ SGI who work on linux as aposed to just sell it fund them buy SGI next time I know I will.


    Regards

    john


    a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
  • Corel is not "giving away" this "distro" though - they're making a huuuge cockup in calling something that should be limited to internal testing "beta" when "alpha" would be more accurate, and they're violating the licenses of *lots* of software in the distribution.

    SGI, now here I think they are doing a good thing. I dunno what the license on the stuff is, I haven't run it yet, but as long as it's appropriate, we shan't (shouldn't) object.

    Complaints about SGI? Well, it's how you approach them, either as comments / criticisms / areas for improvement / complaints. There are several alternative ways of looking at it, including some positive ones.
  • UML software is available in Linux also. The package called "Together" (www.oi.com) beats most of what I've seen on Windows, including Rational Rose. The big problem with Together is that it is written in Java and was horrible slow on my computer. It didn't last a day. :(
  • I think Kdev kicks anything that's out for Linux in the ass if you are developing free software. See http://www.kdevelop.org/
  • No. Actually it is a very good question. The choice of java was made for the very reason that someone might actually want to have a consistent development environment across a variety of platforms.
  • Why is this forgotten by almost every IDE wannbe? This really helps me when I am staring at thousands of lines of code.

    It looks pretty but can it match Xemacs? It doesn't look like it. Someone should draw up a list of required features for an IDE and send it to these guys (and all the other IDE makers out there). We need it all!
  • by dtj@sgi.com (82826) on Tuesday September 21, 1999 @10:27AM (#1668869)
    I also contains a little bit of static analysis functionality as well. It doesn't, however, have some of the things that people traditionally consider part of a full IDE [emphasis mine] such as GUI builders, etc. Those will come. Instead of waiting until Jessie was stocked with every conceivable piece of functionality, we decided to launch it into the world so that the community could help influence its evolution, rather than depending on marketing feedback for
    its direction.
  • From the FAQ [sgi.com]:

    Is Jessie named after Jessie Ventura, the Governor of Minnesota?

    No. While it is true that most of the work on Jessie was done in Minnesota, the name is a variation on the code name of its predecessor, Nessie, denoting the switch to Java as the primary implementation language. Besides, his name is spelled "Jesse" and not "Jessie".
  • by mrsam (12205)

    I haven't looked at Jessie yet, but I'd be surprised if Jessie will be able to read automake's Makefile.am files.

    The first outfit that figures out that there's a demand for an IDE that understands autoconf and automake should make a pile of money.

    Here's a great stress test for all of these IDEs that have been showing up lately: feed them an automake-generated Makefile :-).
    --

  • Try this [sgi.com] and see if it works any better.

    -Dean
  • by dtj@sgi.com (82826) on Tuesday September 21, 1999 @10:44AM (#1668874)
    It's in there for several languages (C, C++, Java, and Ada). If you aren't seeing it, please send us the particulars to jessie@sgi.com [mailto]. That's my code and I am committed to fixing it.

    Also, please send us your required AND desired features list. If you would like to help make those features a reality, please check out the How to Contribute [sgi.com] section.

    -Dean
  • At a quick glance, it looks like the SGI license is pretty close to the GPL. Why don't they just GPL this sucker? Am I missing something here?
  • The GUI was written with the java swing widgets, so I guess it would work under Windows too. All I really need is a good syntax highlightening tool, something that does perl, C/C++, Java, HTML, tcl/tk, JavaScript, and works the way I like it to. Maybe modify this thing to have these features :-)

  • It's closer to the BSD license since people can distribute binaries only etc.

    axolotl
  • by swingkid (3585)
    I was poking around SGI's OSS page, and saw that they were porting STL to Linux. I haven't done much dev work on Linux, mostly Win stuff, and i was a little surprised to see this. Is this the first such effort, or has someone else already done it too? I'm asking because I've been using STL extensively, and assumed it would have been available on Linux sooner.
  • by coats (1068)
    Actually, SGI began by giving their STL implemementation to the Experimental Gnu Compiler System people (who wrote the (finally!) integrated egcs version of the gnu compiler system (gcc/g++/g77/...) that finally was accepted back by FSF as gcc 2.9.5). You can check all this out at the EGCS web-site, http://www.cygnus.com/egcs/ [cygnus.com], where there are complete archives of the development disucssions and mailing lists (great reference for any software archaeologists out there!).

    Perhaps what they mean is "porting, along with their compiler suite, to their Intel boxes, the 320's and 540's"?

  • Java & JavaScript are totally different. Java is a complete language, JavaScript is a simplified scripting language (based on the Java syntax) designed for use in things such as web browsers.

    The actual sgi page quotes it as 'Implemented largely in Java,...' which sounds alot closer to the mark.

    Just a case of mistaken reporting by someone who doesn't know the difference...

  • Hey, it's great that SGI is releasing this sort of thing, but they did it weeks ago, and Jessie has already been announced on half a dozen different sites. So far, it's just a front-end to gdb and gprof, and many of those (DDD, KDbg, etc) exist already. If they're right about its being a real framework for a serious IDE (class browser, syntax highlighting, makefile management), then I'll be interested. Anybody working in C/C++ should check out KDevelop [kdevelop.org], the best IDE for Unix I've seen yet. --JRZ
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Kdevelop seems have support for autoconf and automake, and actually generate the correct configure and make.am files for you when you start a project. From what I see, you can then either modify the linked libraries within kdevelop or modify the make.am again within kdevelop. It also generates templates for Xwindows programs using the kde toolkit or qt. Also, it automagically generates help file and documentation for your project. On top of this it seems to have nice built in help files. From what I've seen so far, even as a beta, it's a nice, very slick development environment.
  • It's written in Java, but it doesn't support Java development. Oh well, I've never found an IDE I like as much as gvim.
  • http://oss.sgi.com/projects/jessie/

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