Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund 151
freejack writes
"Here's an
incredible story of how one Linux user got his
money back for the Windows pre-installed on the laptop he
bought. He used the fact the Microsoft Software License
Agreement allows you to return the software if you do not
agree to its terms."
Hmm.. Rebate... (Score:1)
----
Class action lawsuit? (Score:1)
If your intention is to stick it to Microsoft and set a precedent, then that might well be worth doing. A lawyer might well be willing to try if there appears to be a reasonable chance of winning, for the reason mentioned above. It could be like hitting the lottery if they won.
Unfortunately, this won't work for me. (Score:1)
I've worked in support so long I have: Dos6.2, Win3.1, Win95 retail, OSR1, OSR2, OSR2.2, NT4.0 Server, Win98 OEM Full and 2 copies of Redhat 5.0.
Didn't have to pay a dime for any of the MS ones (and I even have licenses for them), bought one of the RH, got the other from a friend.
--Mephie
HAHAHAHAHA (Score:1)
Right On! I will definitely do this with my next new system (however, by thetime I buy it I may be able to get Linux pre-installed).
Contradictory Statements in EULA (Score:1)
That is correct, the EULA does say that the software product and the computer are a "single integrated product" However, this is highly contradictory to the line directly above it (in my EULA anyway) which states:
"The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed as a single product."
It could be argued that the EULA does not agree with itself, and hence could not have been written on a microsoft operating system.
It could be argued that this invalidates the EULA in its entirety which would cause ownership of the software to revert to you and all liability on the Manufacturer's behalf to be released.
-OR-
It could be argued that since, from a logical standpoint, it is impossible to truely agree with a license agreement which contradicts itself all users of Microsoft Operating systems were forced agree with something which made no sense in order to use the software they purchased with their computer. Thus it would seem every user of all Microsoft Products would be entitled to a refund or a sensical licensing agreement.
-Jason Stiles
stiles@hotmail.com
Check out a cool OS at:
http://www.be.com
State Attorney Generals (Score:1)
I have recently contacted my Attorney General in relation to the MS-EULA dispute. The letters [cyberramp.net] are posted at http://www.cyberramp.net/~dfalksen/eula/. Feedback welcomed.
----
http://www.cyberramp.net/~dfalksen/eula [cyberramp.net]
I am getting refund $5 from Toshiba (Score:1)
You can't get a refund on Internet Explorer, it's a free product. lol
Awesome. (Score:1)
HAHAHAHAHA (Score:1)
I wonder how well that would go over in the states.
Perseverance pays off! (Score:1)
hassle the hardware dealers
demand no os on new systems drives
support Linux-only system sellers
Boycott the MS tax - no taxation w/o representation: I vote no for MS on my hdd!
Now, all I need is money to buy a new system.
S.F. Bay Area refund effort (Score:1)
A new page at http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ [linuxmafia.com] has been established to coordinate Refund Day for the San Francisco Bay Area, provide information for the expected press coverage, etc. The goal is to have an organised, efficient, and friendly refund visit to Microsoft's business office in Foster City.
By the way, whoever set up the "thenoodle.com" site is really on the ball. He linked to the linuxmafia.com page even before I asked, or even told him it existed.
Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.comKinda.. (Score:1)
For pre-installed software, however, the EULA appears on-screen before you're allowed to do anything. (I believe.) Pressing "I agree" (or whatever) indicates your acceptance of the EULA. There should be a printed version included, however.
I would've... (Score:1)
There is the whole principle of the matter, but still...
Shrinkwrap licenses are invalid in the US (Score:1)
Shrinkwrap licenses are invalid in the US. See 17 USC 117 [cornell.edu] and D. J. Bernstein's commentary on the matter [uic.edu].
''Wouldn't it be great'' (Score:1)
nopzor
hrm... (Score:1)
why bother, specify NO windows when U buy? (Score:1)
Now I can consider a laptop purchase. (Score:1)
Fresh Plan: find cheap Toshiba Libreto in back of Computer Shopper or pricewatch.com. Purchase via mail order to avoid state sales tax. Grind out series of emails to get a refund for the M$ tax.
Could be an an attractive option for about $500.
Happy happy, joy joy!
yes! (Score:1)
-mickey
PC manufacturers should beware in Europe (Score:1)
Article 85 of the Treaty on the European Union clearly states :
" 1. The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the common market:
[...]
e.make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts."
Clearly, the customer who buys computer hardware should be able to freely select which software is installed on it, prior to the conclusion of the sale.
This should be brught up at the trial (Score:1)
Other oem's: same license? How to tell in advance? (Score:1)
The license language could change vendor to vendor, and it would be nice to know which ones were this flexable.
I know you can order Linux systems from companies like VA, iDot (by special email ammending of order) and others, but if the license says you open the UPS container you agree to the license, you're $#|+ out of luck...
The OEM gets stiffed by MS on this one too: every Win95 license I have seen specifically says "licensed for THIS computer", meaning the license is not reusable when returned. That, and if you buy a new OS-less computer later on, you can't legally install it on the new machine -- even if you delete the old installation or physically move the old hard drive into the new system.
Apple sells G3 servers with Linux preinstalled... (Score:1)
Your real question is do you get a discount ordering "without OS"? I don't know the answer to that, but you can pursue it if you want. Apple did that "Customer Focus" thing on the Linux/Apache webserver running on their G3.
Yes, before some rude AC points it out this is not "without an OS". But it may be "without being charged for an OS". Check with the Education store, or someone at a school's admin department may have a real human Sales rep at Apple you can call..
Not here (Score:1)
Has anyone else tried this? (Score:1)
Microbiz- no os is fine. (Score:1)
Yeah, baby! (Score:1)
an E-machine for $399 and get a ~$100 refund for
not using Windows on it?
Aw, yeah!
:)
This should be illegal. (Score:1)
bothered me. If consumers can truly choose between operating systems when
purchasing a computer and they freely choose Windows "en masse" then I have no
problem ceding the desktop operating system market to Microsoft.
But consumers have no such choice and the current arrangement should have been
declared illegal long ago because Microsoft isn't simply supplying the OS as
part of their own Microsoft brand computer. Another company makes the box and
forcing a consumer to purchase a third party product is like forcing me to buy
and use Sharp food products with my Sharp microwave. That's criminal.
Interesting Datum (Score:1)
This little incident offers us a piece of information that would be nearly impossible to obtain by other means:
Toshiba is paying $110 Australian for each copy of Windoze.
An interesting gambit would be to pursue refunds from other major PC manufacturers, thereby getting a map of who's paying what. Could be very revealing...
Schwab
What about VA-Research??? (Score:1)
Man, that's SWEET! (Score:1)
"Dear sir.. I used Red Hat Linux to delete all partitions..."
WooP! I love it!
Way, dude! (Score:1)
people can use it to upgrade their machines cheap!
1. prevent software refunds
2. prevent hardware upgrades on-the-cheap
3. prevent the OEM's from getting PO'd and
demanding a new deal on the licenses.
MS can't do all three.
REFUND : MacOS, Solaris (Score:1)
If one of you were to buy a SUN or Apple computer in the near future, please ask them to remove the OS and stress that you wish to use an alternative free OS. Namely Linux, Freebsd, or whatever you feel.
This is the way to go..
--
Depends on the package opened (Score:1)
However, having worked for Radio Shack, I've seen several systems come and go, and the systems as of late are packaged with the power cord in a sealed baggie with an Acceptance Agreement on that bag.
Hummm.... To use the computer (in any way, even to install Linux from your first boot), you have to open the bag to use the power cord. Oops, you've just accepted M$ licence agreement. No refund.
Have a nice day.
Of course, just grab another power cord from somewhere else
relevant to current court proceedings? (Score:1)
Definitly NOT an exclusive, contract but perhaps indeed an anticompetetive one. This is a long standing MicroSoft tactic, and I believe was even used in the old DOS days.
Awesome idea (Score:1)
Can I use the letter posted on the site (Score:1)
The EULA (Score:1)
This seems to rule out the option of acquiring a refund on the windows license without getting a refund on the entire computer. However, this clause does look rather fishy, and it would be interesting to see how such a clause would stand up in court. I am personally surprised that Toshiba did not cite this in their letters.
Anyway, it's an interesting case. I always wondered what would happen if the "refund" part of the EULA was put to the test. Hopefully, this will incite more people to start demanding refunds on their windows licenses. If nothing else, it will make the OEMs notice us
-- Elflord
What about Utilities/Diagnostics etc. (Score:1)
Are you prepared to lose the diagnostics as well?
Good deal (Score:1)
Vendors responsible for refund in Sask., Canada (Score:1)
The Consumer Products Warranties Act (provincial) states among other things that the retailer is responsiblle for carrying out *all* guarantees and warantees, including implied performance guarantees, stated by the manufactuer.
So, if you buy a PC bundled with Windows that has an MS EULA stating that Windows can be returned for a refund, you can return it to the retailer and force them to give you the refund immediately. They may fight you, but it's the law here.
I suggest everyone check their local laws, as I suspect many other provinces and states may have similar laws +/ statutes.
Toshiba puts EULA on Power Switch!! (Score:1)
*sigh*
More than just the OS; and customer satisfaction (Score:1)
First, all of the brand name PCs that I've seen advertised include not only some flavor of Win32, but also include Office and a whole host of other applications that we supposedly want on our PCs. If we're going to get a refund for the software that we don't use, we might as well get a refund for all of the software and not just the OS.
Second, I worked as a support Bob [1] for one of MS's outsourcers. I took calls on DOS and Win95. One of the things that was stressed in our training was that if the customer was not satisfied with the product even after using it then it could be returned for a refund. I even used that on a couple of calls, but (sadly) don't remember the address (nor can I find where it was written down) for dissatisfied customers.
[1] Search on DejaNews[2] for the alt.tech-support.recovery FAQ to get an explanation of what a Bob is.
[2] You should know where to go by now...
US Federal holiday ... (Score:1)
They maybe onto something here... (Score:1)
You might even be able to get a refund based on the 'not fit for the purpose for which it was designed' clause (A lot retailers are wary enough of the law to give refunds simply on the 'I couldn't get it to work' argument, because it's fairly easy in court to go from 'doesn't work' to 'not fit')
That works the other way around... (Score:1)
My AlphaStation came without an OS. (Score:1)
(anyone want to help me get X running on the 8 meg TGA cards that came with the systems?)
What about non-Intel hardware/non-MS OS? -NOPE (Score:1)
were licensed with the same condition in
Microsofts EULA which allows refund of the
operating system if you don't agree to the
license. I'm fairly sure the others don't.
build your own laptop... (Score:1)
Wouldn't it be beautiful... (Score:1)
Even VA Research Bundles Win95! (Score:1)
REFUND REFUND (Score:1)
The EULA (Score:1)
I can't wait to see what happens when some high profile lawyers get their hands in this and start slugging. The two statements contradict eachother. Wonder what a judge would rule.
Anyway, better get it quick if you're going to try. If it become epidemic, you can bet it'll be rewritten promptly.
Also, I think a more interesting battle to watch would be the PC makers vs. MS. How are their agreements written? Will they be able to get MS to cough up the cash since it's their EULA.
Just a thought
M
Use Local Vendors If Possible (Score:1)
their own equipment. Most of these people
are not tied into any agreement with MS, and
it also helps support local business as opposed
to the other mega corps, i.e. dell, compaq.
HAHAHAHAHA (Score:1)
it's a pity i used my M$ software, back when i purchased the computer i didn't even really know what linux was fully. oh well. i'll get to do this with my next upgrade
What scares me... (Score:1)
I've become a believer! - Linux CAN take over! (Score:1)
My new prediction is that by Jan 1st, 2000, Linux will be the operating system of choice for all new systems.
Linux - Operating system for a new millennium.
Depends on the package opened (Score:1)
The EULA (Score:1)
An idea to truely break the system. (Score:1)
Ha! (Score:1)
money back (Score:1)
$0 refund value? (Score:1)
No, reward them for giving a refund! (Score:1)
1. They're a big corporation with many procedures, and this guy was asking for something unheard of (literally, they hadn't heard of it before).
2. As another poster suggested, they may have not have understood until the end that he was using a different OS and not pulling a fast one.
3. They DO have a contract (required by current market forces) with a certain OS vendor known for very, very hardball tactics, in and out of court.
If enough slashdotters were to buy laptops from Toshiba, they might just start to openly market to us. (Assuming MS doesn't try to fix their wagon.)
product(s) (was US License Agreement says....) (Score:1)
The EULA - section 2(g) Single COMPUTER. (Score:1)
Windows Refund Center (Score:1)
Stick it to Bill (Score:1)
I bet this would make for some interesting rebuttal in the court hearings.
This should also be public knowledge...if more people knew this was possible Bill might not have such an upper hand...
Class action lawsuit? (Score:1)
they have to pay for anyway - guess what happens?
They'll reject such deals with Microsoft.
A single small vendor can probably not do it, but
they'll cooperate on this if all of them get
returns.
Unfortunately, this is unlikely... (Score:1)
make the windows deal unprofitable because of
refund cost alone, but the extra work may make
them reconsider.
And imagine a company with lots of machines doing this. I don't know of any large-scale linux
installations, but there sure are banks with large
os2 installations around.
Then there are those who upgrade to newer machines, and install their old licenced windows
onto the new machines. (Legal if you bought windows without machine once, and remove windows
from the old machines before selling them used.)
why bother, specify NO windows when U buy? (Score:1)
I don't buy whole machines anyway.
Buying a laptop without windows (Score:1)
If they wonder why, just say you have broken the screen or something, but you have everything you need on the existing hardisk.
Then order an "extra" harddisk a little later. Some notebooks have room for an extra drive. Or say you want a spare one.
Can we donate our old MS Licenses? (Score:1)
Sometimes I think about the older licenses I have. I have two compaq aeros one still has a license for dos/win3.1, which I understand MS still sells. I don't have the disks because compaq didn't distribute the software on disk with the computer.
However, is it possible for me donate the license to a school? Perhaps some one could create a website where people with old licenses to MS software could place ads with availability, no SS# on the website itself of course. And schools and other non-profits could have the licenses transfered to them.
How many offices have machines that don't work but still have the licenses for the software. Most companies probably have a fortune in unused software. Donating it could be a tax write off.
It is unlikely that MS would complain about charitable donations of this type. The PR would be terrible. And even if they did complain I doubt anything could be done about it.
mousejocky@mindless.com.XXXX
Class action lawsuit? (Score:1)
Notebook Without an OS! (Score:1)
The notebook can be ordered without an Operating System so you can avoid the M$ TAX from the start.
The laptop runs Linux without and problems!
Joe
No luck w/Gateway (Score:1)
The generic customer service rep was rude, and at first refused to let me talk to her manager. The manager was quite nice, but just as useless.
I guess that I'll now have to write a "I'm shocked and appalled" letter to the VP of Customer Care.
Info directly from the M$ website (Score:1)
*Some* PC suppliers provide what's wanted (Score:1)
I bought a PC just before Christmas and asked for no OS, and the salesman understood and accepted that I wanted to use Linux, to the extent that he recommended that I select a different video card since mmy first choice might give problems (PnP). I did as he suggested (the card was actually a few $ less that my first choice) and it works perfectly.
In fact the machine was $80 cheaper than if I had bought it with Win installed, so he made his sale and I got what I wanted without paying the MS tax - isn't that what the salesperson/customer thing is all about?
I suggest we support the stores that allow this choice - forget the big corporations who work hand-in-glove with MS.
For the record I bought the machine at PC's For Everyone in Cambridge MA. I can't fault them for anything in this purchase, so I will use them agian. Their URL is http://www.pcsforeveryone.com
B=
I'm going to try it (Score:1)
It will probably be an Acer Extensa 500T but I have not yet decided. Any comments about how this
particular model runs under Linux are appreciated.
I am currently living in Germany and my german is not very good, so some help by german-speaking people in translating e-mails/faxs/letters will be
welcome. Also if you know some law in Germany that makes this easyer/harder please let me know.
If I succeed the money will be donated to the Free Software Foundation.
Ruben
I am getting refund $5 from Toshiba (Score:1)
Move along!..There's nothing to see here. (Score:1)
This is not the first time 'refund' has reared it's head on Slashdot. Is anyone expecting me to believe that you cannot buy a machine and specify at time of purchase that you don't want any MS product on it. Give me a break! What a shower of annoying whiners! Get over yourselves.
PC manufacturers should beware in Europe (Score:1)
You guessed?
The line:
the sale. ). Si ou non?
missed a chunk, which I now precis:
-end of quote
-MS would claim there is linkage between computer hardware and software (which there is) though proving that this means i86a computers *absolutely* require MS software is another question. The answer is not one MS would like to go to court to prove!
-The original poster was from France?
Does that make more sense?
Gateway is having trouble with it. (Score:1)
They've tried to convince me it doesn't apply
to "operating software". Heh.
Yer a bunch of silly geeks (Score:1)
*Why dont u buy computer systems that DONT come preloaded with Windows if you dont want it? there are plenty of resellers on the 'net happy to sell Window-less units.
*Why dont u get over yer hatred of Windows simply because it's Microsoft. If u don't wanna use MS products well don't use em, n leave the rest of us who understand that the best product is the one that does the job the best, whether it be unix or windows or wotever.
*Ever noticed how similar yer very public anti-windows whinging is to Microsoft's alleged bully-boy tactics?
Makes me wonder jsut how many of u anti-windows dickheads actually successfully use a computer to make a living....
...can't wait for all the friendly replies im gonna get from this post *smooch* love u all
DELL said YES - $199 (Score:1)
I asked if I could return Windows for a refund. He said YES!!.
I asked how much the refund would be. He said $199!!
Me thinks he's gonna lose his job. But it's been said!
I've transcibed the conversation at http://ibis.home.texas.net/dell.html [texas.net].
When Microsoft Isn't involved.... (Score:1)
http://www.digital.com/alphaserver/linux/index.
The Compaq AlphaServer DS20 and 800 systems are available without a bundled software license, allowing you to use an open source operating system, such as Linux. This saves you the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use.
Why is it that this is not the case on Intel products? It seems like even though Microsoft claims that they do not force vendors to ship Windows on a new system and that the vendors "choose" to do it because it is the only fesable option, that suddenly to the vendor "...the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use." doesn't matter anymore. It appears that this is only the case if the vendor controls BOTH the hardware and the software. Seems almost like Microsoft IS involved and that it isn't just a vendor "choice".
When Microsoft Isn't involved.... (Score:1)
http://www.digital.com/alphaserver/linux/index.
The Compaq AlphaServer DS20 and 800 systems are available without a bundled software license, allowing you to use an open source operating system, such as Linux. This saves you the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use.
Why is it that this is not the case on Intel products? It seems like even though Microsoft claims that they do not force vendors to ship Windows on a new system and that the vendors "choose" to do it because it is the only fesable option, that suddenly to the vendor "...the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use." doesn't matter anymore. It appears that this is only the case if the vendor controls BOTH the hardware and the software. Seems almost like Microsoft IS involved and that it isn't just a vendor "choice".
So, MS just changes the EULA, right? Nope! (Score:1)
And of course, no MS product ever has.
So, MS just changes the EULA, right? (Score:1)
Mabey we should start a group that returns MacOS (Score:1)
Hmm... (Score:1)
toshiba logo (Score:1)
i put toshiba logo on my page
(http://ku.rindu.net)
then i link it to that australian page
:)