The Problem With Positive Thinking 158
An anonymous reader writes: The NY Times explains research into how our mindset can influence results. The common refrain when striving for a goal is to stay positive and imagine success — people say this will help you accomplish what you want. But a series of psychological experiments show such thinking tends to have exactly the opposite effect. "In a 2011 study published in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, we asked two groups of college students to write about what lay in store for the coming week. One group was asked to imagine that the week would be great. The other group was just asked to write down any thoughts about the week that came to mind. The students who had positively fantasized reported feeling less energized than those in the control group. As we later documented, they also went on to accomplish less during that week." This research has been replicated across many types of people and many different goals.
Building on that research, the scientists developed a thought process called "mental contrasting," where people are encouraged to think about their dreams coming true only for a few minutes before dedicating just as much time to thinking about the obstacles they'll have to deal with. Experiments have demonstrated that subjects using these techniques were more successful at things like exercise and maintaining a healthy diet than a control group. "[D]reaming about the future calms you down, measurably reducing systolic blood pressure, but it also can drain you of the energy you need to take action in pursuit of your goals."
Building on that research, the scientists developed a thought process called "mental contrasting," where people are encouraged to think about their dreams coming true only for a few minutes before dedicating just as much time to thinking about the obstacles they'll have to deal with. Experiments have demonstrated that subjects using these techniques were more successful at things like exercise and maintaining a healthy diet than a control group. "[D]reaming about the future calms you down, measurably reducing systolic blood pressure, but it also can drain you of the energy you need to take action in pursuit of your goals."
As has been posted before (Score:5, Insightful)
The negative thinkers/pessimists get all the work done, then the positive thinkers say "See, there was nothing to worry about" and take all the credit.
Re: (Score:3)
Zaphod Beeblebrox: There's a whole new life stretching out in front of you.
Marvin: Oh, not another one.
Re: (Score:1)
Oh, not another one.
It's the shades of grey in between (Score:4, Insightful)
The negative thinkers/pessimists get all the work done, then the positive thinkers say "See, there was nothing to worry about" and take all the credit
In reality no one can be said to be absolutely pessimistic nor absolutely optimistic
Most often the one who truly gets the work done follows the "Expect the _worst_ but hope for the _best_" adage
Re:As has been posted before (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
You know the kind of people who work in visual effects would be just as happy with crayons as a mac. Grammar is irrelevant to them, their job is to remove useful information and replace it with a flashy but irrelevant diagram.
Re: (Score:2)
pluss +++++++++ PLUS PLUSS 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
I Hate positive people.
I see what you did there... I think.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's all just a trick by the 1%ers to keep us down.
Re: (Score:1)
It's all just a trick by the 1%ers to keep us down.
Silly... We -are- the one percenters.
Oh, you mean as measuered by money. They don't mean anything as far as I can see, except possibly as stumbling blocks. 8-)
Re: As has been posted before (Score:2)
Silly AC, they don't have jobs. They live off investment gains. They have capital, they don't need to labour.
Re: (Score:3)
See also: Y2K
Re: (Score:3)
That was exactly my point. The 'negative thinkers/pessimists' worked very hard to solve all Y2K problems, then January 1st, 2000 passed by and all the 'positive thinkers' said "see, there was nothing to worry about" without taking into account all the work that had been done to fix the problems.
Pop psychology fails (Score:2)
Again.
It's simple (Score:1)
Positive thinking == false hopes
Re: (Score:3)
Well, it is used a lot in organization such as Amway. If you think positive, you can become a billionaire.
I have always wandered if it was a way to blame the person if he/she wasn't successful. Kind of: you didn't think positively enough..
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope. The trick is to convince your followers and customers to be positive, for that to happen you need to appear extremely positive.
Re: (Score:3)
Positive thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Optimists are also more likely to die young, and as a result of their own negligence.
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2013/02/pessimism-future.aspx [apa.org]
Another way to think of it (Score:5, Interesting)
Positive thinkers already get some of the mental-benefit of the task being complete. Imagining being finished is just a little bit like being finished. That saps some of the motivation to finish, since they've already received part of the payoff. Negative thinkers have actually increased the payoff even more, because they get the additional payoff of having been wrong about their negativity.
Re:Another way to think of it (Score:5, Funny)
So, wait... should I be positive about the fact that I'm negative? I'm feeling kinda neutral about the whole thing now...
Re: (Score:3)
“I have no strong feelings one way or the other”
-Neutral President
http://theinfosphere.org/Neutr... [theinfosphere.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Another way to think of it (Score:4, Interesting)
This. Thinking too much about anything is just not good. If you only thought positive things about the week ahead you will be confused when the week differs from what you thought, and if you Thought only negative things you will not even start some of the tasks "because they won't work."
Re: (Score:3)
You should be negative.
Positively.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm feeling kinda neutral about the whole thing now...
Perfect! The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Re: Another way to think of it (Score:1)
"I'm positive about the negative but a little negative about the positive." - Curly Howard
Re:Another way to think of it (Score:5, Insightful)
Positive thinkers already get some of the mental-benefit of the task being complete.
I agree with this. This is like the guy who fantasizes about a woman he has a crush on without taking action. The more he fantasizes about that woman, the more he jerks off to her image, in the long-run -- the even less likely he'll be prepared to deal with her in real life. For the ladies, please reverse the genders into what I've just said, and the same will be true.
It's like people who eat empty calories instead of eating proper meals, or people who love losing themselves in power fantasies created by comic books, hollywood studios, and game studios, instead of living life to the fullest in the real world (not that everybody is like that, I'm just talking about the more extreme cases, the ones that have truly substituted fantasy worlds for their own realities).
That saps some of the motivation to finish, since they've already received part of the payoff.
That's true to an extent, but some would say that if you think that motivation is a pre-condition needed to get things done, then you've already created yourself an extra mental barrier that will prevent you from getting things done in the first place.
Action is not always the result of internal motivation. Just think of the last job you had, or the last difficult classes you've taken. Where you always motivated to work, or to study? Probably not, and yet, you probably still managed to show up to work and do it anyway, or study what needed to be studied. Often times, that extra motivation and that extra energy is not the pre-condition of the action, but the actual consequence of having taken that action in the first place.
Case in point, I used to attend public speaking clubs (Toastmasters clubs) late at night. Often times, I've had a long day already before attending those meetings and I was unmotivated to go to those meetings. And yet when I still went anyway, my energy levels went up, not down, as a result. So if there is a perfect time for taking action, it's when you're feeling unmotivated. That feeling of unmotivation should be your internal trigger, instead of being the excuse you tell yourself for doing nothing.
Re: (Score:1)
And goes on to develop a sincere interest in ethics in game journalism.
Re: (Score:2)
instead of living life to the fullest in the real world
Have you considered that they are, in fact, doing that? Not everyone has the same interests.
Re: (Score:2)
instead of living life to the fullest in the real world
Have you considered that they are, in fact, doing that? Not everyone has the same interests.
Here is the disclaimer I used in my previous post:
...I'm just talking about the more extreme cases, the ones that have truly substituted fantasy worlds for their own realities.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, and that doesn't relate to what I said. There's nothing inherently wrong about living in fantasy. If they want to do that, I don't really care, and I'm not going to tell others whether or not they're living life to the fullest.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, and that doesn't relate to what I said. There's nothing inherently wrong about living in fantasy. If they want to do that, I don't really care, and I'm not going to tell others whether or not they're living life to the fullest.
There is nothing inherently wrong with being obese, depressed, dying early, either I suppose.
It's just that I hope my own family members and my friends don't end up living that way.
Re: (Score:2)
There is nothing inherently wrong with being obese, depressed, dying early, either I suppose.
Right.
Re: (Score:1)
the guy who fantasizes about a woman he has a crush on without taking action.
Yeah, you realize in the real world we call these men "creepy" and call the police on them, or fabricate false rape charges should one ever make a move? Because they disgust us.
Re: (Score:2)
Interesting (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Its always interesting to read articles that challenge the accepted wisdom
Accepted only by the wishful thinkers.
People who get stuff done, instead of just talking about it, knew all along that "positive thinking" is just junk believed by wishful thinkers who come along to take credit for the work.
"Mental Contrasting" (Score:2)
I have chronic depression that has kept me unemployed for most of my adult life, and I'm fat as hell.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Doesn't it seem strange that human intellect seems to have peaked at it's current level? Intelligence beyond a couple standard dev. above a 100 IQ seems to be negatively correlated with reproduction(or else 100 would be more intelligent than it is).
IQ != intelligence.
Re: (Score:1)
But the correlation is quite high.
It is true that the concept of intelligence is a bit amorphous, and that the measures we use to put a number on it are not comprehensive. But the serious IQ tests have demonstrated effectiveness at rating our commonsense concept of intelligence, so it is good enough.
It is also true that people who have very high IQ scores tend to suffer social isolation. It is very hard for them to relate with people who can't keep up with them in a conversation, and who aren't interested
Re: (Score:2)
They also have zero common sense and are crap at sport. Any other stereotypes you'd like to trot out?
Assuming the intelligent person is normal in other respects (e.g. not an aspie) he'll be able to adjust to the crowd he's with. And even if he has zero interest in Celebrity Honey Boo-Boo Monster Truck Ballroom Shore he'll either be able to fake it or steer the conversation away without anyone noticing.
Re: (Score:3)
But the correlation is quite high.
Actually, no. Fools have arbitrarily decided that certain things are relevant to intelligence (how well you do in school, how much money you make, etc.) without a shred of evidence. We haven't even properly defined intelligence in any sort of rigorous way.
But the serious IQ tests have demonstrated effectiveness at rating our commonsense concept of intelligence, so it is good enough.
Nonsense. Common sense is often neither common and nor does it often make sense. Plenty of nonsensical things used to be "common sense." That is not science, either. The "common sense concept" of intelligence does not matter in the least.
Stop repeating myt
Serenity Now (Score:2)
Insanity later.
Re:Serenity Now (Score:5, Funny)
Firefly first, Serenity later.
You have control of you. (Score:5, Insightful)
'Positive thinking' is essentially the vein hope that the current situation you judge as undesirable will change to something desirable just because you desire it. It fails to recognise that being happy and content can be achieved simply by changing your judgement. You can decide to be content with your life. The truth is that those external things; wealth, health, power and fame, are all fleeting. The only thing you really have control over is you. The solution isn't hoping that things will get better, it is accepting that they won't and pleasantly surprised if they do.
Re: (Score:3)
While I agree with most of your post, you are wrong about the "control" over you.
Control over yourself is a dangerous belief !
For example, if I'm fat and I want to lose some weight, I can diet, because after all, it's just a matter of will.
I'll completely focus on my weight and if I notice that this doesn't work, I'll become depressed.
In fact, the real solution is to act without expecting anything (this is called selfless action).
If I have a positive return, it's unexpected so it's a nice surprise.
If I have
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you have discovered for yourself the way to being content then is not to judge. The control I am talking about is the ability to do as you suggest; to not hold expectations or judgements. The externals are indifferent to you because you have no control over them. The only thing you have control over is your intentions and actions. Therefore the only thing you should be concerned about is how you honour yourself through your actions.
I did not mean control over your physical body; health or the lack o
Re: (Score:2)
Sure, we agree about controlling the external reality (which leads to frustration), but what about controlling your internal reality ?
The only thing that can truely be said as your own is your thoughts and actions.
I'm still searching the "I" that you mention !
Sure, thoughts and actions appear, but what is their source ?
Also, it's easy to say that we should not expect something or judge others, but are you able to apply this for yourself ?
That is: to not expect anything from yourself and to not judge yourself ?
Are you able to surrender ?
Re: (Score:2)
Artery hope?
Or is it a vain hope that educated people should be able to spell?
Yes, I know. But it's the end of a long day on the road, and I feel like bitching about something....
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know weather you're joking or not.
Re: (Score:2)
That's what fueled the Gold Rush of '49.
Re: (Score:2)
I accomplish all my goals (Score:1)
I just move them to whatever I've accomplished... *Mission Accomplished!*
Stockdale Paradox (Score:5, Interesting)
In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.[11]
When Collins asked who didn't make it out of Vietnam, Stockdale replied:
Stockdale then added:
Re: (Score:2)
I never doubted [...] that I would get out
When Collins asked who didn't make it out of Vietnam, Stockdale replied:
Oh, that's easy, the optimists.
Sounds more like it was the lapsed optimists. What is Stockdale's first quote, if not optimistic?
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end - which you can never afford to lose - with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
How do you "confuse" those two things?
Not really sure what life lesson I'm supposed to take away from this - stay optimistic, just don't set a deadline for it so you're never actually disappointed? If you get sent to a POW camp, don't think "I'll be out by next week," think "I'll be out before I die," because then if you are, great, and if you aren't, you won't know about it?
Re: (Score:3)
Stockdale's comments are easy to make because he got out. It's the story every single motivational speaker tells, but only after they've survived.
I've known a fair number of pessimists who didn't make it.
Re: (Score:2)
This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end - which you can never afford to lose - with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
Or to put it another way, the most irrational thought is the evolutionary winner. If you think you're going to die, why fight the inevitable? If you rationally think you'll win, your spirit will be broken when you don't. But if you believe against any rational hope that you'll survive, you'll fight any odds because youl think you'll beat them. It doesn't matter that they're wrong most of the time, all the ones who survive think they were destined to survive.
Re:Stockdale Paradox (Score:4, Informative)
Stockdale was impressed by stoicism, but he was a positive thinker.
His premises are wrong: "I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life,"
"I never doubted that I would get out " is positive thinking, especially when reality shows that this will be probably wrong.
"turn the experience into the defining event of my life" is also positive thinking, it's called "peak performance" in positive thinking.
Re:Stockdale Paradox (Score:4, Insightful)
It's also called "hindsight in 20/20".
You know who doesn't turn the experience into the defining event" of their lives? The positive thinkers who didn't make it.
What is "positive thinking"? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see why establishing unrealistic views of reality would ever be constructive. Imagining the week will excel in every way and finding out that it doesn't isn't what I consider "positive thinking" -- obviously the week is going to fall short and then the lesson learned is not going to be a habit of thinking positive, it is going to be the opposite, that thinking positive is futile and incorrect.
What I consider "positive thinking" is a realistic perspective which acknowledges the good and the bad but emphasizing the good aspects. Seeing losing your job as an opportunity to start a new chapter. Seeing the misfortune of others as an opportunity to help them. Being thankful for what you already have instead of craving everything you don't. It's a more accurate view in any case -- it's quite rare that losing a job or a relationship deprives the rest of your life of meaning or success, and solving problems actually does give the brain a sense of euphoria, so why should you be upset about encountering them?
The mental contrasting approach the article describes seems oriented along those lines, but to me it's not a matter of "contrast" so much as a matter of compatibility -- positive thinking doesn't contrast with realism, realism simply sets the context in which positive thinking should take place.
And then the positive thinkers go on to win. (Score:2)
The negative thinkers can turn into over-achievers. Thinking that if they're really productive, they will get promoted.
Unfortunately for them, once they realize this is not the case, they get angry, frustrated, cynical.
Meanwhile the positive thinkers become high performers, who achieve less individually and in any given week and realize that working as a group and motivating people is more important than individual contributions. They stay in the game longer and turn into good leaders. They get promoted
Is it really negative? (Score:3)
And negative thinking doesn't help all that much either. Negative thinking just assumes nothing will ever work.
Pragmatic thinking, on the other hand, asks "What might go wrong?" Pragmatic thinking says, "I want this to work well, but what would keep it from working?"
Pragmatic thinking ends up getting things right much more often than either positive thinking oe negative thinking.
People I worked with would always cringe when I'd say "Hold on a second!", until They found out how often I was right in the end. Eventually they'd bounce ideas off me for projects I wasn't even on to se if they forgot or didn't think of something.
Re: (Score:2)
A significant number of people are think their personality makes things work. Thus, you are offering something outside that. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. You are refuting their basic premise.
And some folks looked at it that way for a while.
And this isn't to bray about myself being always right - I'm not, much is about experience, much is about looking at the project in the manner of what might go wrong, not denying anything that might go wrong. Much is about wanting to be right at the end, not the beginning.
Yes, your first sentence sums it up well. We've seen so many examples of the triumph of the will failing, whether it be creepy old dictators, or denialism, or religious fundamentalism,
It's more than that (Score:5, Insightful)
Positive people are dangerous. Because they assume everything is going to be fine, they fail to plan for things to go wrong, and then after you're stuck cleaning up the mess they caused, they sweep it all under the rug and act like everything went smoothly - so not only do you get no recognition for your heroic efforts to fix everything, but they're fully confident in their ability to handle the next situation just as well as the last.
But nobody wants to listen to the pessimists, because they're so negative.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, when people start talking about how great positive thinking is, I always think, "Sure, as long as things are going well."
Your mindset is, to some degree, a prediction of the future. For that prediction to be helpful, it needs to be fairly accurate. Now many people will point out that predictions can be self-fulfilling, and a positive expectation is more likely to lead to a positive outcome. It's true. But it can also leave you unprepared for a negative outcome.
I think positivity needs to be meas
Lazy positive thinking (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea behind positive thinking was never to simply visualize the positive goal, it was to envision the challenges and think through overcoming the challenges.
Ignoring the challenges is an absence of thinking.
Re: (Score:1)
Exactly. It's supposed to be "visualize yourself completing the goal" not "visualize the goal completed". There's a huge difference between the two. The first focuses you to work. The second lets you sit back because it'll solve itself.
yay, confirmation for us curmudgeons ... (Score:2)
My dentist, of all places, has someone they employ who wanders around and asks you if you want a hand or neck massage while you are waiting.
I loved the reaction the first time that I said "no thank you; I prefer to remain tense."
Makes you Angrier as well (Score:2)
Psychological Experiment (Score:2)
Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to be in their study. Call that job satisfaction, 'cause I don't.
Optimists vs pessimists (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And they overvalue the effect that their optimism or pessimism will have on the outcome.
My mom used to tell me that "worrying will not change the outcome one bit". The same goes for optimism.
Of course, my mom also told me that I could be whatever I wanted to be, and Daniel Craig got to be James Bond and I didn't so what did she know, right?
Goals vs. mental health (Score:2)
Like everything in life. . . (Score:2)
We could all complain here about the optimists, but the true pessimists would not be able to participate because they have all already killed themselves.
Depressingly obvious (Score:1)
In my experience, management consists of optimists, engineering consists of pessimists. Which is why managent is sure the project can be done with half the resources, in a third the time, while the engineers obsess over the thousand ways the product can fail. This is why good engineers are not wanted for management.
Balance in Life (Score:2)
The key is balance (Score:2)
I suspect the optimal strategy is to dwell on the success just long enough to convince yourself the goal is achievable and then switch to the mindset of "ok, now I need to make it happen".
Too much thinking about the positive and you feel like you've already won and lose the motivation to put in the work.
But if you only dwell on the negatives your task seems impossible and you again have no reason to work.
Re: (Score:2)
I think you need to have confidence in yourself and believe that you can do something. But then you need to do the actual work, solve the problems, work for success. To me, there is a difference between fantasizing about success and believing in your ability to achieve it.
In other words, I know I can do X. But to do it, I must do A, B, C, D, and overcome obstacles I, II, III, and IV. That's positive thinking combined with realism and the willingness to do what you have to do.
Re: (Score:3)
I think you need to have confidence in yourself and believe that you can do something. But then you need to do the actual work, solve the problems, work for success. To me, there is a difference between fantasizing about success and believing in your ability to achieve it.
In other words, I know I can do X. But to do it, I must do A, B, C, D, and overcome obstacles I, II, III, and IV. That's positive thinking combined with realism and the willingness to do what you have to do.
So for the last couple months I've been working on a start-up idea in my spare time. The thought process "I know I can do X. But to do it, I must do A, B, C, D, and overcome obstacles I, II, III, and IV." is a bad idea that turns me into a quivering blob hiding under my quilt.
The long term obstacles are certainly achievable, but they're also a ton of work and extremely daunting since I can't do anything about them for a long time.
If I want to get work done the key is to think of the long term goal but only
"Negative thinking" is interpreted wrongly (Score:4, Insightful)
Ghost Whisperer? (Score:1)
Has anyone contacted Norman Vincent Peale about this?
(I had to say it, there was no obligatory reference to him this entire thread.)
flame bait article (Score:2)
Positive thinking keeps you going.
Negative thinking gets the job done.
Having both gets the job done right.
This article is definitely crafted for a targeted audience.
What was studied is not what is usually meant (Score:2)
I am a fencer. One of the people I fence with often says before they fence someone, "I can't beat them. I am a terrible fencer." Unsurprisingly, after saying this they usually lose, even against people I
A better plan: (Score:1)
George Bernard Shaw (Score:1)
Ironic... (Score:1)
A simple example (Score:2)
Cheer up, my friends said, things could be worse. So I cheered up, and, sure enough, they got worse.
mark "if I am depressed, it is for good and sufficent reasons, and if I wasn't depressed, I wouldn't be facing reality"*
* copyright, me, 1983
Re: (Score:2)
I thought it was just me that was was motivated solely by fear and worry
Same here, wasted years daydreaming about success, it's just a form of mental masturbation. Now I cherish my fears and revel in my worries... and gain a small measure of success and satisfaction from the knowledge that perception of reality is reasonably accurate.
I apply The Power of Positive Thinking [wikipedia.org] by being positive that I will screw up completely unless I think. I'm Not OK, You're Not OK [wikipedia.org] , but that's okay. I don each mask of the Four Temperments [wikipedia.org] (this one comes with music [youtube.com]) in turn as I consider
Re: (Score:3)
I thought it was just me that was was motivated solely by fear and worry, but apparently it's most people if not everyone! Of course if you expect things to go great already then wtf are you working so hard for, things are going to turn out great anyway remember?
Anxiety energizes and motivates people. Too much will paralyze them. Gotta reach the optimal amount that energizes, but does not enervate. Along the lines of "eustress" not "distress."
Re: (Score:1)
That's why you can never relax until you have the government buying your stuff! Almost every great fortune in America is made at the expense of the tax payer, be it IBM getting the first Social Security contract to Walmart having their working live off foodstamps and medicaid. Privatizing education is the next frontier, charter schools will put USA education dollars in the pocket of the capitalists who own the charter schools! This will dwarf even Oracle's military contract for getting fat on the tax payer
Re: (Score:3)
Correction: a small business.
Once you're too big to fail you're in clover.
Re: (Score:3)
There is a strange middle ground of a sort. I am not invested too much in the outcome. Some people shrink from the fight because victory is impossible. This is the 'pragmitist' who evaluates the probability of success and decides the low chance of success means the goal itself isn't worth the effort. Then there are the optimists who fool themselves that the goal is easier than it is, or who believe that the good guy always wins. This is delusional.
Then there are people who accept the reality: they know the
Re: (Score:2)
I'm with the martial arts masters on this one. If you fight and lose, fight again, lose better.
In sparring we say, "Invest in loss". It's a philosophy that has led to a lot of important wins.