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Operating Systems Microsoft The Almighty Buck The Courts Windows Your Rights Online Linux

Italian Supreme Court Bans the 'Microsoft Tax' 353

Posted by Soulskill from the making-hardware-a-bit-cheaper dept.
An anonymous reader writes: In a post at the Free Software Foundation, lawyer Marco Ciurcina reports that the Italian Supreme Court has ruled the practice of forcing users to pay for a Windows license when they buy a new PC is illegal. Manufacturers in Italy are now legally obligated to refund that money if a buyer wants to put GNU/Linux or another free OS on the computer. Ciurcina says, "The focus of the Court's reasoning is that the sale of a PC with software preinstalled is not like the sale of a car with its components (the 4 wheels, the engine, etc.) that therefore are sold jointly. Buying a computer with preinstalled software, the user is required to conclude two different contracts: the first, when he buys the computer; the second, when he turns on the computer for the first time and he is required to accept or not the license terms of the preinstalled software. Therefore, if the user does not accept the software license, he has the right to keep the computer and install free software without having to pay the 'Microsoft tax.'"
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Italian Supreme Court Bans the 'Microsoft Tax' More

Italian Supreme Court Bans the 'Microsoft Tax'

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  • And so therefor it follows and I quote (Score:5, Interesting)

    by alphatel ( 1450715 ) * on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:39AM (#48229175)
    Can I get a refund for my Mac OS too?

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Only if it has been installed on a third party PC.

    • Re:And so therefor it follows and I quote (Score:5, Insightful)

      by __aaltlg1547 ( 2541114 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:48AM (#48229219)

      In principle, maybe. But Apple gives away its software free. It's the hardware itself that's pricey.

      • In principle, maybe. But Apple gives away its software free. It's the hardware itself that's pricey.

        Really? So you mean I can legally download it from Apple and install it on a VM or PC? Download link?

        • Really? So you mean I can legally download it from Apple and install it on a VM or PC? Download link?

          It's free as in beer. You have it for free when you buy an Apple product, while OEMs actually buy Windows licences, that's the point. Microsoft cannot say that it's free, since they get money from the OEMs, Apple can. It's not hard to understand.

        • The question at hand is whether the software is free, which it is if you obtain it via the download link found here [apple.com]. Whether you can install it legally on non-apple hardware or not is not relevant to the context but since you asked; doing so is in breach with their EULA and at least in the US courts have reached the conclusion that even selling Hackintosh friendly hardware is illegal when done in the manner that Psystar used to do when they provided the OS asa bundle together with their hardware. http:// [lockergnome.com]

          • It is definitely relevant. Where does the money for the development of OS X come from? Are they a charity like Debian? No.

            They get the money from selling Macs. Which means the buyer of Macs is paying for OS X regardless of whether they want it or not.

            Let me quote the summary here

            Lawyer Marco Ciurcina reports that the Italian Supreme Court has ruled the practice of forcing users to pay for a Windows license when they buy a new PC is illegal.

            If Apple gave away OS X to everyone to install on VMs and PCs for free like Debian does, they could conceivably they aren't charging Mac buyersbut are using profits from hardware sales for charity and public good.

        • Really? So you mean I can legally download it from Apple and install it on a VM or PC? Download link?

          I think the term for that is "intentionally obtuse". The copyright holder allows you to use it for free on any Apple-branded computer, and doesn't allow you to use it on any other computer.

          • That means you're buying a license to use OS X and updates when you buy a Mac, regardless of whether you want it or not.

      • What about the Surface Pro 3?

        From the judgement:

        The judgment at p. 21 states: "Having been assessed that there are not technological obstacles, the 'packaging' at the source of hardware and operating system Microsoft Windows (as it would for any other operating system for a fee) would actually respond, in substance, to a trade policy aimed at the forceful spread of the latter in the hardware retail (at least in that, a large majority, headed by the most established OEM brands); among other things, with cascade effects in order to the imposition on the market of additional software applications whose dissemination among final customers finds strong stimulus and influence - if not genuine compulsion - in more or less intense constraints of compatibility and interoperability (that this time we could define 'technological with commercial effect') with that operating system, that has at least tendency to be monopolistic".

        Great, now if they can take the same logic to phones so that I can install Windows Phone(buying it for ~$20 if needed) on Android phones and iPhones, and get a refund on the OS on those phones, it would be great. It's like we lost a lot of freedom going from x86 to ARM.

        • The real problems will start when we go from ARM to LEG.

        • How much do they charge you for putting Android on your phone?

          • Google is known to charge for access to the Play Store and services, but it may not be much. All the patent royalties and licensing(like h.264 encoding) on the software could be as much as $20 a phone. If I am not going to use those features, why should I pay for them when I buy the phone? Same as with Windows vs. Linux.

            • You can load any of a number of non-OEM versions of Android on your phone for free and you have access to the Play Store if you download and install the freely-distributed Google-apps zip.

              I'm thinking if they're getting paid, it's for a service such as supporting OEMs in porting Android to their phones.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by brunes69 ( 86786 )

        Windows 8.1 was free. And it is widely believed that Windows 10 will also be free. So your argument falls apart. If I can get a refund for one I should be able to get a refund for another. If I want to buy a Powerbook and install Linux or Windows on it, why should I not be able to get a refund for OSX.

        This is actually a real scenario, I actually plan to do this. I love Mac hardware, I hate OSX.

      • Apple gives away its software free. It's the hardware itself that's pricey.

        Great! Can you point me to a download link so I can install OS X on my hackintosh?

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          It's the top result under "Free Apps" on the app store [apple.com]. It worked fine for me.

      • Microsoft almost gives away the license to the big OEM players too. As little as $25 in some cases. Not like you are going to get a Retail-box or Retail-OEM refund ($100-$200).
    • I'm all for free software, but this reasoning sounds insane. When people buy a PC, it says "comes with windows", you know what you're getting, and to require manufacturers to return half of it seems nuts. It's like ordering a cheeseburger, and then demanding a refund for the cheese. Why didn't you just order a hamburger?

      • Re:And so therefor it follows and I quote (Score:5, Insightful)

        by lostmongoose ( 1094523 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:58AM (#48229293)

        I'm all for free software, but this reasoning sounds insane. When people buy a PC, it says "comes with windows", you know what you're getting, and to require manufacturers to return half of it seems nuts. It's like ordering a cheeseburger, and then demanding a refund for the cheese. Why didn't you just order a hamburger?

        Walk into a store and buy a fully assembled name brand (Dell, HP, etc) PC, complete with warranty and guarantees, without ANY software preinstalled. You can't. Your analogy fails.

        • Walk into a store and buy a fully assembled name brand (Dell, HP, etc) PC, complete with warranty and guarantees, without ANY software preinstalled. You can't. Your analogy fails.

          Heathkit. Radio Shack. Long dead in any recognizable form.

          The PC is a mass market consumer appliance or an office machine. It sells as a kit of parts only to a handful of enthusiasts and IT pros --- who don't do their shopping at the Galleria Mall.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Solandri ( 704621 )
          The analogy fails but still gives insight into what causes the current situation.

          Using the original analogy, what's essentially happened is that only cheeseburgers are sold. There are no hamburgers for sale. It's cheaper/more efficient for the fast food joints to only pre-make and keep warm cheeseburgers, than to have separate lines for cheseburgers and hamburgers.

          "But that's silly! Cheeseburgers have an extra component so are more expensive to make than hamburgers. Why would a restaurant only mak
        • You're right, but it's a straw man argument to his point. He's saying that if you go to the store, and buy a Dell, knowing that it has Windows installed, and asking for a refund, it's crazy. You're saying that if you go into the store, there is no other choice other than windows boxes. So you're both right.

          The solution is for those that want windows, go to Best Buy (or the like) and buy a computer with warranty and guarantee, and for those that want a blank box, go and order your parts wisely.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by nut ( 19435 )

          The analogy actually fails because the original poster didn't RTFA. Or even the Slashdot summary in this case.

          The cheesburger only has one contract. (The implicit one in the purchase.) Microsoft requires the purchaser of a PC to agree to a second contract with them AFTER the sale was completed and the goods received from a distinct vendor. (The shop that sold you the computer.)

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by speedplane ( 552872 )
          Imagine we lived in a world without hamburgers, only cheeseburgers. The solution would be to encourage people to open up hamburger shops, not to demand that cheesburger shops refund the cheese.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Motard ( 1553251 )

          Walk into a store and buy a fully assembled name brand (Dell, HP, etc) PC, complete with warranty and guarantees, without ANY software preinstalled. You can't. Your analogy fails.

          If enough people wanted to do that, you could. But virtually nobody does. The demand is not there. The Italian legal system thinks too highly of itself.

      • Why didn't you just order a hamburger?

        Because nobody offers that option. I would gladly request a refund for the Windows 7 that came with my notebook if I could. The only reason I keep its partition is because I paid for that crap, and just "in case I need it"... but it's been 3 years so far without booting it. I guess I'll just wipe it and give more space to my Linux partition whenever I get some time to do it.

        • I usually install it on a VM I run on the box.

          • IIRC, the license explicitly forbids running it under a VM... though in my opinion if you paid for the crap you should be able to run it whatever way you want.
            But, as I said, Windows is just a waste of hard disk space to me, be it a partition or VDI.

            • My licence agree for Win 7 Pro OEM does not prohibit me from installing it in a VM.

              It says only that if I'm installing it for my own use, I'm restricted to installing it on a single computer that has a disk or flash drive and a case, that the COA must be affixed to said case, that I'm restricted to keeping a single backup of the installed OS for recovery purposes, and that the backup may not be used to operate a different computer.

              Of course, this is from 2007, and it's an OEM version. Later or non-OEM versi

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gnupun ( 752725 )

        It's like ordering a cheeseburger, and then demanding a refund for the cheese. Why didn't you just order a hamburger?

        But you do have the right to choose a different type of cheese. You can choose microsoft cheese, bsd cheese, linux cheese.

        I'm all for free software, but this reasoning sounds insane.

        Even if linux/bsd are free, the company selling the linux/bsd PC will charge an OS bundling and testing charge. So the real question is, is the Italian Supreme court making it legal to sell hamburgers without the

        • But you do have the right to choose a different type of cheese. You can choose microsoft cheese, bsd cheese, linux cheese.

          I'm lactose intolerant, you insensitive clod!

    • Just e-mail Apple. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to send you $0.

    • If you could figure out how much it cost you, you might have a case. There are two problems: 1) buying a Mac is inherently different then buying a PC in that Mac-buyers have actively chosen to buy an operating system, and 2) it's really hard to figure out how much Mac OS the software cost you.

      1) is important because the basis of the ruling is that when you buy a Dell you're buying two things: computer hardware and access to a separate software package. There are tens of millions of geeks around the world wh

      • If you think the CFO of Apple does not know exactly how much the cost of OS X contributes to a Mac's cost, you must be thinking their accounting department is a joke. At the medium business that I work, everytime we make a phone call or print something, we need to enter a project code that it's billed to against. Every square foot and chair is accounted for and properly billed to the appropriate project and client. And it's not even a public company like Apple is. Trust me, Apple's accounting and operations

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Shados ( 741919 )

        The cost of the windows license is actually pretty complicated, unless its a machine with JUST windows. The bloatware and trials and all that garbage count, as the OEM is being paid to include those. For low end hardware, one could argue you'd owe the OEM money when you tell them you're not using Windows (not really, but they certainly don't owe you much, since you're buying subsidized hardware...).

        In a similar way, the Apple hardware premium subsidize the OS. Sure, these days, Apple doesn't have a very big

    • Why buy a Mac at all if you're not going to use OS X?

      • Why buy a Mac at all if you're not going to use OS X?

        At my company, which has a company wide Windows license, lots of Windows users (everybody who has enough power to do it) buy a MacBook Air or another MacBook and ask IT to install Windows on it. Now you can argue whether an Apple computer running Windows with MacOS X removed is still a Macintosh or not...

    • Can I get a refund for my Mac OS too?

      The correct answer is that there a dozens of computer manufacturers selling you computers without MacOS X, and only one selling you a computer with MacOS X, so if you wanted a computer without MacOS X you could have just gone to one of the dozen manufacturers you sell you exactly what you want.

    • Sure. You realize Mac OS X is free to all Apple certified hardware, of course. ;-)

  • Tax and cost from a PC-vendor point of view (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:46AM (#48229211)
    Dell once explained why their Linux PCs weren't cheaper than similar Windows models. The average cost of a single customer service call to Dell was higher than their OEM Windows licence cost, and the Linux PCs had a significant higher number of customer service calls than the Windows-PCs.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Dell once explained why their Linux PCs weren't cheaper than similar Windows models. The average cost of a single customer service call to Dell was higher than their OEM Windows licence cost, and the Linux PCs had a significant higher number of customer service calls than the Windows-PCs.

      Probably a big factor yes, maybe even bigger: The Windows pre-installs have software that vendors pay to have on there. Your Windows system is subsidized, the Linux system is not.

    • Re: Tax and cost from a PC-vendor point of view (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      How about no OS warranty then? No-OS pc = no OS warranty... Call up Dell and say your no-OS machine won't boot and they should tell you to reboot and hit f10 ... If ePSA passes, sorry, you need to fix it yourself or restore from backup or reimage...

      • If, for example, the camera or microphone doesn't work or stops working, how does Dell troubleshoot it to see if it's a hardware issue or a driver issue?

    • The real problem is the $200 bribe to install all that bloatware. If you dont take the bloatware, you have to pay the full price of the hardware. Personally, I am happy to pay -$100 for widows+bloatware and install Mint over it.

    • Dell once explained why their Linux PCs weren't cheaper than similar Windows models.

      "Linux is just the kernel."

      I wonder sometimes what would happen if a judge took a geek and his memes at face value --- and if the end result would be a successful, marketable, consumer product.

  • I would MUCH rather see phones no longer bundling their crapware on the phones, i mean you cant even delete them (without rooting)

  • But will it affect consumers? (Score:3)

    by __aaltlg1547 ( 2541114 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @11:50AM (#48229237)

    How much less do Italians get to pay for a PC with no operating system loaded than for one with Microsoft Windows?

    • They likely won't pay less. OEMs are paid to bundle crapware with their Windows PCs that subsidizes the price of the system. The claimed "tax" does not actually exist when the price of the PC is actually lower than it would be without Windows.

  • ... in which big business does not own the political and judicial systems.

    .
    If (and that's a big if) such a decision were rendered here in the US, Microsoft would have Congress quickly pass a law nullifying the decision.

  • 20 years too late (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ledow ( 319597 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @12:05PM (#48229341) Homepage

    20 years too late

  • Hardware with only windows drivers. By requiring windows 8.1 computers to have a certain level of hardware spec, they can ensure incompatible components on every computer and argue that the OS is required by the computer chosen.

  • Year of the Linux Desktop (Score:5, Funny)

    by InfiniteWisdom ( 530090 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @12:33PM (#48229505) Homepage

    This is it! 2014 will be the year of the Linux desktop!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ecuador ( 740021 )
      ...in Italy! Hopefully the PC's there will now will come with a Linux installation disc (which shall be known as the Italo Linux Disco).

  • 50 euro fee for a 20 euro refund (Score:4, Insightful)

    by CAPSLOCK2000 ( 27149 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @12:48PM (#48229589) Homepage

    Under Dutch law you are entitled a refund because you did not get to see the license before purchasing the computer but only after booting it for the fist time. Vendors have found all kinds of work-arounds. One of those work-arounds is that they add an administration-fee to your refund that is higher than the price of Windows. Another work-around is that they require the manufacture to verify that Windows has been entirely removed. Unfortunately they don't have a local office that can do that so you are supposed to ship your computer to Germany. They will check the computer, which takes a few weeks, and only then you get your refund, minus the international shipping and handling costs. Ofcourse they will not use the list-price for the refund but the volume-discount price that the big manufacturers get.
    Only the most principled customers will jump through the hoops to get the refund.

  • Ban the MS tax on Android instead (Score:5, Insightful)

    by haruchai ( 17472 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @01:04PM (#48229685)

    Why should anyone be paying M$ so much as a thin dime let alone $10-$20 in royalties on each Android device sold?

  • The bare bones PC doesn't sell worth spit.

    It is not and never has been and never will be a mass market consumer product.

    The OEM system install was the key to making the PC a mass market product. It meant that you had a working --- tested --- configuration out of the box, appropriate for its price range and intended use.

    In 2014 it is still possible for the geek to be tied up in knots by Linux audio.

    Something that leaves the OSX and Windows user with his head shaking in disbelief.

    Walmart --- with its enormou

    • Re:The elephant can forget. The geek never learns. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @07:18PM (#48231571)

      There is something distinctly fraudulent about buying a Windows PC and demanding a refund when you could have bought a Linux PC from the start.

      Ok I'll bite. Show me where I can buy a Linux laptop, with a i7-4710, 1TB HDD, 8GB of RAM, and a GTX 850M. I can't seem to find one which doesn't say Windows 8.1 included in price in the specs. Note how I pointed to laptops? You ever realise that most of these issues don't seem to arise with PCs as people are able to build their own from the ground up?

      Giving examples of the worst system integration you could find and using that as a reason why I should be forced to pay money to a company who's product I don't want to use is disingenious. Geeks tied up in knots about Linux Audio? There hasn't been a Linux distro I've used in the past 2 years where audio hasn't worked out of the box, then prior to the Pulseaudio debacle it also just worked though not as feature rich as now.

      Now what is fraudulent is selling a product with a separate End User License Agreement, and then not accepting a return when that EULA is not accepted. Really sit down and have a read of the OEM Windows EULA next time you have a week or so free. There is a line in the EULA that says if you do not accept the terms of the EULA in full then you should remove the copy and seek a refund from the distributor. The only fraudulent act is not abiding by the very terms you try to force on your customers.

      By the way I lied about the laptop. I do get a choice of OS. The choice is Windows 8.1 or Windows 8.1 Pro. Amazing. I feel so empowered.

      • Ok I'll bite. Show me where I can buy a Linux laptop, with a i7-4710, 1TB HDD, 8GB of RAM, and a GTX 850M.

        No trouble:

        Configure your Bonobo Extreme [system76.com] [Desktop Replacement]

        Base price $1629
        CPU Upgrades start at $50.

        Free upgrade to NVIDIA 870M
        Upgrade to 12 GB for $69.
        1 TB HDDs starting at $39.
        Full range of SSD primary and HDD/SSD secondary drives, optical and tertiary SSD drives.

  • Please (Score:3)

    by NotInHere ( 3654617 ) on Saturday October 25, 2014 @02:09PM (#48230091)

    explain how to get into boot menu without using windows tools on UEFI devices. Either I have been too stupid, or microsoft very smart, but I haven't found any optiont o boot an EFI-capable stick without windows, at least for the hardware I were on. I could have tried to remove the HDD, but that could have voided warranty. What to do in this case?

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