Foxconn Says Vocational Students Aren't Being 'Forced' To Work 117
jones_supa writes "Foxconn has responded to the criticism regarding Chinese internship students being forced to work for them. In a statement to Washington Post, Foxconn said that its 'short-term internship program' is in line with Chinese labor laws and that interns comprise 2.7% of its labor force in China. Schools, not Foxconn, recruit students into the programs, the company said, and the programs are supervised by local government authorities and teachers assigned to monitor the students' work. Foxconn has also set up a hotline for interns and outlined procedures that allow them to resign from the program."
Related, an anonymous reader pointed at an undercover report on working conditions at Foxconn.
Sure, you can resign anytime you like, worker (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, we're going to have to kick you out of this school and send you back to your impoverished village. You know, budget cuts and such.
Now, does anyone else here wish to resign from our completely voluntary short-term internship program? Does anyone else wish to not do their part for glorious China? Does anyone else wish to speak to the press?
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There are a lot of American Colleges that require a year or a semester of internship. Fail do do so means you cannot graduate from college, thus you will normally go back home and work a minimum wage job.
Ob. Simpson Quote.
Stanley, Standly,
No Degree,
2 credits short at
M I T
If you look at it, the internship program is basically free labor.
Re:Sure, you can resign anytime you like, worker (Score:5, Insightful)
But the main difference is that those US internships come with humane working conditions - FTA - 7 hours on a production line with no breaks. This is not the same as an intern in the US who (maybe underpaid) gets regular breaks and time off of work.
American colleges require internships to help a student find careers, make connections and secure a job. If you've ever had an internship - no one in the company is making millions off of your labor - usually you're nothing more than a gopher or paperwork bitch. From what I can tell, this type of Chinese internship exists to pad a few people's pockets with the labor of many.
To use a comparison: American Internship is to Chinese internship as Apples are to Getting punched in the head.
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American colleges require internships to help a student find careers, make connections and secure a job. If you've ever had an internship - no one in the company is making millions off of your labor - usually you're nothing more than a gopher or paperwork bitch.
That's crap if it's true -- we have placement students at my workplace, and they have to do "real work" (on my team, they do second-line support and have a small project assigned to them in-between (infrequent) calls). The universities check, and if they thought the students were wasting their time they'd recommend next year's students work elsewhere.
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So maybe Canada is as bad as China for punches to the head? (wink) I
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In the US (I would hope that linemen at northern Canadian airports got paid more) it is a very low paying job in any instance other than working for/at a major airport. The only advancement opport
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So how would you feel getting paid cents per hour for 12 hour days on six day weeks, knowing that in an unsafe work environment one accident permanent disabling and it's tough luck you're out the door with no insurance. All with no choice, either complete or fail, now that's inhumane, especially considering the owner is a billionaire. The richer the greedier.
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any citations to the effect that this is what goes on at Foxconn in particular?
as i understand things, choice is somewhat limited in China, but Foxconn apparently is quite a lot better than most. there's certainly no shortage of applicants.
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But the main difference is that those US internships come with humane working conditions - FTA - 7 hours on a production line with no breaks.
Chinese labour law mandates 8 hours of work per day maximum, otherwise its over time like here. What most here in the West tend to forget China, like many other old world countries do not have the same concepts as we do. Yes from the start of work till the end its "12 hours" but its not quite that either ...
In China you work 4 hours straight, then have a 2-4 hour lunch time for you to go home, cook a proper meal, take a nap etc, and then another 4 hours of work. None of this "Eat your lunch in a half hour
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Except the internship is relevant to your desired career, and there are federal rules for unpaid workers that say basically "This person has to provide a net cost to productivity in order to qualify for unpaid work." Otherwise, they have to be a paid intern.
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My internships in university had to be paid or they did not count.
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I've seen both. My co-op had to be paid to count. But I had one job where I worked with other students including an intern who was unpaid. It baffled me. Still does, to be honest. If I'm not providing sufficient value to the company to warrant being paid, I'm not gaining sufficient experience to warrant being there.
Still, my student pay was far far below my post-grad pay. About 50% of my post-grad pay only 8 months later. And yet I was getting paid far above what most non-co-op/non-intern students we
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Mine did not
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Then your university is making a big mistake. For no pay people will take interns and have them doing nothing or useless work. Doing a free internship is nearly pointless.
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Pay is not very good indicator of good work. I had to submit a letter from my supervisor describing my job to get them to approve my credits (And they get to determine how many credits it is worth too (I was in graduate school, so they were a lot picky)).
And I am glad I was able to. It was not a good time to be looking for a job as a computer science student with little experience. My internship got converted into a full-time with a very good pay.
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If you look at it, the internship program is basically free labor.
No it isn't, because the interns are paid the same wage as the regular workers.
Re:Sure, you can resign anytime you like, worker (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately, we're going to have to kick you out of this school and send you back to your impoverished village. You know, budget cuts and such.
Now, does anyone else here wish to resign from our completely voluntary short-term internship program? Does anyone else wish to not do their part for glorious China? Does anyone else wish to speak to the press?
Back to the village? More like, we'll just kick you out onto the street and you'll be persona non grata in your own country, with a permanent mark on your record kept by the party. It's not about promoting anything like communist or maxist ideals, but about China's government policy of pushing economic growth at the expense of nothing. China want's to be the big dod in the world, economically and technologically. Why go to war to conquer the world when you can just have the world completely dependent upon you?
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China's government policy of pushing economic growth at the expense of nothing.
Yeah, that's the US's job!
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Yea and if you believe anything these corporations say(and I don't) I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell to you dirt cheap.
Re:Sure, you can resign anytime you like, worker (Score:4, Funny)
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But isn't China a socialist country? I thought the myth about socialism was that people got money for free without having to work for them!
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No in socialism "workers contribute to society based on their ability and receive pay according to their needs"
They are students, they dont need money. The state pays for the school and they can contribute to the state by working for free or for reduced wadges in the factory.
Full on Socialism at work.
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Socialism means the workers control the means of production.
You seem to have got it mixed up with communism.
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Ummm, Louis Blanc the most influential of all socialists wrote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" in his 1839, thesis "The organization of work"
It was repeated by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.
So, it is very Socialist and is true to socialism.
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From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
As a definition of the "social contract" it's vastly more civilized than "eat or be eaten".
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But the social contract is a crock of BS. There is no social contract, The laws of nature govern both man and society and it is survival of the fittest. (To take a Nietzschean stance on this) To do otherwise would allow the weak to survive and reproduce, thus degrading the gene pool and weakening man as a whole. The only outcome from that would be the complete extension of man.
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Sorry, auto-erect at it's best
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1. The People's Republic of China is not a socialist government. It is a totalitarian government and nominally Communist.
2. The idea behind 'socialist' governments is that we are all better off if we agree to pay for some things (schools, roads, health care, defense, etc) together rather than let the rich take all the money and work the rest of us to death.
3. The idea behind Totalitarian nations is that you are nothing, the state is everything, and you are luck to live here.
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So work and go to school or don't work and don't go to school. I'm quite missing where the outrage is. Maybe it's that they don't have to option to go into massive debt instead of working like you can in the USA?
It's also worth pointing out that these are vocational students, which means they're learning a trade rather than a general education. So working in factory positions related to their trade is arguably quite like the education they're receiving anyways.
Now, sure, quite like the standard of living
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Yep. So it's basically "work for nothing for a time to fill $mega-corps coffers WHILE you are at school" in China with this scheme versus "work for nothing for a time to fill $mega-corps coffers AFTER you left school" to pay back your student loans in the US. Pure Capitalism at work in both cases.
I have some issues interpreting that statement (Score:1)
So, I'm not sure that statement means "They are watching us so we treat students well" or "They are watching the students to make sure they don't get funny ideas".
Come on, this is the same company which wanted to address the high number of suicides by hanging nets around buildings until the PR disaster struck.
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the programs are supervised by local government authorities and teachers assigned to monitor the students' work
So, I'm not sure that statement means "They are watching us so we treat students well" or "They are watching the students to make sure they don't get funny ideas".
Come on, this is the same company which wanted to address the high number of suicides by hanging nets around buildings until the PR disaster struck.
Reminds me just a little of the slave shops found in Los Angeles, years back, where Asians were found to be working in buildings, chained to sewing machine stations and such. They of course had the freedom to think about leaving, but not a chance they'd get out alive.
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"Asians were found to be working in buildings"
those "jobs" have now been outsourced
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"Asians were found to be working in buildings"
those "jobs" have now been outsourced
I doubt it, they were making knock-off goods and were run by something of an asian mob. Probably the former bosses of the shop are making picnic tables in San Quentin.
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guess it was not funny enough... back to my day job
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Come on, this is the same company which wanted to address the high number of suicides by hanging nets around buildings until the PR disaster struck.
What were they supposed to do? People were committing suicide to get the insurance money for their families. I suppose they could have just stopped paying out if the cause of death was suicide (and I thought they did actually?) Plus putting up nets is nicer than cleaning up the mess.
Re:I have some issues interpreting that statement (Score:4, Insightful)
>>What were they supposed to do?
Pay above-suicide wages, provide decent work environment and career path maybe?
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Wtf kind of "career path" would you be offering to thousands of poorly educated factory workers, exactly? I have no idea what the work environment is like, but I think the wages would have to be pretty crazy to top a life insurance payout, and I don't really see why it's the employer's responsibility to start paying everyone better. There should be a government set minimum wage like in other countries (and there probably is), then it's up to the employer whether to beat that or not. I'm pretty sure FoxConn
Re:I have some issues interpreting that statement (Score:4, Interesting)
Pay above-suicide wages, provide decent work environment and career path maybe?
You are quite frankly talking out of your arse. Suicides at Foxconn have surely been reported widely, however if you look at the actual statistics, the suicide rate at Foxconn is about three times lower than the suicide rate in the USA, and about equal to the rate of retail employees in the USA that are _murdered_ while they are doing their job.
The USA has a high suicide rates especially among males because of the wide availability of guns - the rate of attempted suicides is not especially high, but the availability of guns means that more suicide attempts are "successful". Something similar happened at Foxconn: It turns out that jumping off a high building produces a good chance of making suicide attempts "successful". And Foxconn _took action_ against that saving the lives of some people who had problems with their girl friends, mental problems, any of hundreds of possible reasons to commit suicide. What is especially commendable is that they did this even though they must have fully known that the idiots would take whatever they did and hold it against Foxconn.
Re:I have some issues interpreting that statement (Score:4, Informative)
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China is not communist.
And never will be, because people suck and will abuse power if given the chance.
There is no such thing as a benevolent dictator.
Lust for power is such that the bullies will win in a competition for the race to the top.
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To think that the Chinese are using interns for free labor!
Except the interns are not free labor. They are paid the same wages as the other workers.
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Except the interns are not free labor. They are paid the same wages as the other workers.
Oh.
So this program is actually much more generous than what certain US industries put students through.
So, what's the story here?
He didn't answer the accusation.... (Score:5, Insightful)
His response is the FoxConn isn't forcing anyone to work and that it complies with local Chinese law. He said nothing to rebut the criticism that the students are being forced to work. He's got his political speech down, talking about all the unrelated aspects rather than addressing the key point that students are being forced to work.
So from your response you can draw the following conclusions. The students ARE being forced to work, the people doing the forcing are the schools and local government officials, Foxconn is likely involved in pressuring or enticing these entities to do the forcing but isn't actually rounding the people up at gun point themselves.
Yea, not so nice when you take it out of the political speech.
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His response is the FoxConn isn't forcing anyone to work and that it complies with local Chinese law. He said nothing to rebut the criticism that the students are being forced to work. He's got his political speech down, talking about all the unrelated aspects rather than addressing the key point that students are being forced to work.
So from your response you can draw the following conclusions. The students ARE being forced to work, the people doing the forcing are the schools and local government officials, Foxconn is likely involved in pressuring or enticing these entities to do the forcing but isn't actually rounding the people up at gun point themselves.
Yea, not so nice when you take it out of the political speech.
You can draw whatever conclusion you want but the truth will never come out. This is a communist regime and if someone posts something legit that shames China they will disappear. If they post it anonymously, they will be discredited. China is out to win and they will lie, cheat and steal their way to the top at any cost.
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Dear Tharkkun,
Although there may be some truth to the network effects of communism you mention (corruption), you're thinking far too paranoid to make good decisions. Even given that the cheating is rampant at upper levels (as they do here in the USA, where lies, damn lies, and statistics made by PR do the job a little more smoothly) they will on the whole require the same precarious balance demanded of any "super power". World war three does not suit them at all and that's not h
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World war three can only be triggered by other sovereign entities.
The PRC has nothing to fear from its citizens.
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They aren't being forced to work... (Score:2)
... but they will if they know what's good for them.
iPhone 5 (Score:2)
Re:iPhone 5 (Score:4, Funny)
Put it next to your Foxconn-made Cisco router and HP laptop to make a chorus.
Tired of picking on Foxconn yet?? (Score:2, Informative)
Why don't we pick on Nike's chinese sweat shops for a change. Because they're not a tech company? They do make Nike+ accessories for use with the iPod, afterall.
Come on, let's pick on Nike for a change??????
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I don't remember ever stopping picking on Nike. But when the court ruled that they were allowed to lie in advertisements about ceasing to use sweatshops when they had not, it seems they were the winners of the PR war.
Guess I need to fire my company's interns (Score:1)
The /. groupthink appears to be that hiring high school students (to help them fulfill their graduation requirements) is a bad thing.
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Well, it is if they are working in an industry they might be interested in after graduation. But if its some social service organization involved in feeding homeless crack addicts, then its a condition of graduation.
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Is it really "hiring" if they're forced to be there, are not paid, you work them 12-hour days, and you beat them if they don't produce?
Because if that's hiring, I want to hire some black folk to pick my cotton crop.
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Only if you are not paying them, or forcing them to work in what westerners would consider unusual or dangerous conditions.
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The Foxconn interns are getting paid. And sitting on a factory line stuffing ICs into boards is hardly "dangerous". I did that when I was a high school student for Cardinal Technologies (modem manufacturer).
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I bet the standards at that factory were a little different.
Also those interns are working of their own free will, not like these chinese kids.
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And sitting on a factory line stuffing ICs into boards is hardly "dangerous".
I wonder what the educational value of that would be, other than the important life lesson of "Be careful when signing any contract."
nostalgic title (Score:3)
The title so brings the nostalgic memories of 80s, when the first thing you do as a freshman is join glorious rows of collective farmers for two three weeks at the border between Moscow and Tula regions.
The farm was actually set up this way. They had only managers and the role of measly workers were always performed by Moscow students.
Economics of labor in China (Score:4, Interesting)
Today (thanks to assembly shops like Foxconn) the standard of living has been raised so that those lucky enough to get employment at a place like Foxconn, can often buy a car, a computer, and a TV.
Every major city in China is building hundreds (and I'm not kidding, HUNDREDS, it is astonishing) of skyscrapers on its edges to accomodate rural, farm poor folks who are moving to the city to get jobs at place like Foxconn.
That doesn't mean that everything is always on the level or that Foxconn is pure at heart. Far from it, corruption is widespread and so many of the jobs are incredibly dangerous. But construction work is far and away the most dangerous work environment in China today.
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probably not, but what's your point? china is a much longer lived country than the US, so if anything, they should be more "civilized" with respect to workers' rights.
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Regarding the building boom, it's shaping up to the biggest real estate bubble ever and will make 2008 look like a small blip.
Developers have literally built empty cities which property speculators have heavily invested in, the cost of living in these "ghost cities" is quite high for the average citizen and keeps it out of reach as well infrastructure is already falling apart because no one lives there.
When the property bubble bursts there is going to be a significant chain reaction with far reaching conseq
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But I have to observe, the Chinese can be very innovative and resourceful, many of the folks my age and younger were out hustling EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY to boost their own business, perhaps they will be able to use the
Come on (Score:1)
That guy behind them with the gun is just a coincidence
Labor Laws? (Score:3)
So these interns get paid, right?
If so (even if its the entry level wage) Foxconn isn't getting free or cheap labor. Often it takes a few months to bring employees up to speed even on moderately skilled jobs. So they are probably losing some money (or at best, breaking even) on this deal.
Back when I started my engineering career at a utility, the company I started at had a training program where they would run new employees (professional and management types) through each division in the company. One or two days in meter reading, accounting and other similar departments. A few weeks in jobs more closely related to my eventual position. I even spent a few weeks working with line crews (on de-energized stuff). Best damned experience I could have gotten for the industry. Of course, they paid me the engineering entry level wage. And they didn't expect any real productivity out of me.
Interesting note about that productivity: When I went out with an underground crew, installing systems in new subdivisions (basically dragging cable through open trenches), I just put on some work clothes and jumped in. Later, the foreman told me that some engineers in the training program just sat in their cars, reading a newspaper and napping for a few weeks. Later on, it turned out that the newspaper reading engineers ended up becoming the company fuck-ups.
Same thing later on working at Boeing. We had some engineers who refused to go out into the factory and look at the systems they were involved with. Again, these turned out to be the useless screw-ups (or son-in-laws of some VP).
Its all about the enthusiasm and interest in the industry. Sure, it can be abused. But if you are not willing to do the work (and experience some of the drudgery) of the job, you probably need to seek employment elsewhere. Also, I'd think really hard about hiring any white collar professional who hasn't done some sort of physical labor in their past. Some of the best life training (even for the nerd set) is to work alongside some traditional blue collar workers who take pride in their professions. Working with line crews (both in training and as an engineer) sure puts the uber-macho attitude many engineers and IT professionals have into (hilarious) perspective.
Rationalization (Score:5, Insightful)
Hard day for loyal western customers that would rather um... pay more for their gadgets than exploit young workers. In the mean time we may find it useful to review the Slashdot poster rationalizations collected from recent responses to similar stories.
Apple/Foxconn worker and environmental exploitation rationalization worksheet
Check all that apply
[ ] Making iPhones in a Chinese factory is better than being a Chinese peasant
[ ] iPhones/Pads would cost too much if I had to pay my fellow citizens to make them
[ ] iPhones/Pads would cost too much given environmental regulations I vehemently insist on for myself
[ ] All the other manufacturers are doing it too
[ ] Some/Many/Most Chinese workers appreciate 70 hour weeks and breathing my aluminum dust
[ ] It's not Apple, it's Foxconn
[ ] It's not Apple, it's the Chinese government
[ ] It's just capitalism at work
[ ] It's just communism at work
[ ] Apple's disposable workers are paid better than non-Apple disposable workers
[ ] Apple's auditors didn't find any serious issues
[ ] Some day the Chinese will be too wealthy to exploit
[ ] Your Android is Foxconn too
[ ] You're an Apple hater using Apple as a scapegoat
[ ] I also work 60/80/100/120 hour weeks at my IT job
[ ] Apple designers are in the US
[ ] The US did the same thing to the British
[ ] The US had slaves once too
[ ] The US has prison labor today
[ ] It's up to the Chinese to stand up to their oppressive government
[ ] There are lines of willing workers outside Foxconn factories
[ ] If any company were to stop the exploitation, I really think it'll be Apple
[ ] Your free Linux runs on Chinese hardware too
[ ] Foxconn workers think they have it great, so it's ok!
[ ] Foxconn worker suicides are lower than Chicago's murder rate
[ ] We can't pollute the whole world!
[ ] Half of all US households have an Apple product
[ ] If we don't exploit them they'll never develop
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dilbert reference (Score:1)
from S1E11 animated series episode:
boss:
"Everybody who donates will get one of these colorful, stylish I-get-to-keep-my-job T-shirts. Of course participation is completely 100% voluntary."
Definitely not forced... (Score:1)
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Academia is heavily coerced regardless of where in the world it is.
Most western students don't understand factories (Score:2)
It is extremely important for break out potential and producing actually useful members of society.
Another place you should take your kids if you get the chance is court. Fight a parking ticket or some other minor legal skirmish and bring the kids along. Sure it will be a bit demoralizing for them to see their parents "lose" but it will keep them from being scared of the co
Well... (Score:2)
So, how long until... (Score:2)
So, how long until sabotaged devices or devices with notes stating how bad the conditions are start showing up?
subject (Score:2)
"Foxconn said that its 'short-term internship program' is in line with Chinese labor laws"
AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (*spittle*)