China Hires 1 Million People To Fight Fake Products 151
hackingbear writes "In a sign of the Chinese Government's intention to crack down on the black market, there were about 1 million people employed to remove fake goods from Chinese streets, according to the vice-chairman of the China Council for the Promotion of International Trade, Wang Jinzhen. Like our War on Drugs, the chance of that succeeding is not very high. 'I don't think it will be completely corrected, but still it will be eased,' he said. 'That's good for China and the company and for everyone in the world.' One key reason why companies keep their R&D departments out side of China is because of concern over IP protection. As an engineer, should we wish their effort genuine and successful? Or as your grandma warned you, be careful what you wish for."
Laughable, given certain traditions. (Score:5, Insightful)
All this will be is a make-work jobs program for China. The only fake goods you'll see stopped are the ones made by people from the wrong families.
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As for fake goods for local use, the wealth/top mil/gov have their own shops so they are fine.
If your making fakes, everything is paid for, nobody will want to see a good thing stop.
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It sounds like an earnest effort. But I really doubt that even China would employ 1 million people to do try to do this.
There's about 2 million soldiers in China. There's about 2 million police. There's no way in *hell* that busting counterfeit handbags is going to be 1/2 as important as defence, or law and order.
Perhaps there's 1 million chengguan - city administrators. These are basically police deputies who maintain public order, by clearing away illegal or unregistered businesses. That's a charitable de
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It would be nice I think to not ascossiate China with cheap knock-off products... I'm probably just naive though.
China will start pushing for and supporting stronger IP protection when it judges that it's in its own interest to do so, and that's nothing to do with being "nice". Partly for the investment reasons, but far more because they'll have their own IP which they wish to reap the benefit of.
Nothing specifically anti-Chinese in this observation; the Americans were quite content to permit unauthorised copying of works by non-citizens during the 19th century [moreintelligentlife.com]:-
In the 19th century publishing battles raged between Britain and the United States. A loophole in American copyright law enabled publishers to reprint British books at will. Until 1891, the intellectual property of non-citizens was up for grabs. Charles Dickens, Alfred Tennyson and other popular British writers lost untold amounts of income as American publishers profited. American writers, too, were commercial losers at home, as a book of poetry by Longfellow or Poe selling for one dollar had to compete with a 25 cent novel by Dickens or Thackeray. It was an intellectual-property war every bit as fierce as today's DVD black market in China. American publishers would send their agents to roam the wharves in New York, Philadelphia and Boston to intercept popular manuscripts coming in by ship. Across the Atlantic, English customs officials would search passenger ships coming from the States and confiscate pirated British books as contraband.
Now that America stands to benefit much more from pro
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Indeed it will probably not work. Like so many attempts didn't work. Part of the reason is of course corruption, part of the reason is moral. People just don't care. I recall the story of a complete company that was faked: some Chinese businessmen set up a company using the exact logos and names etc. like some foreign company, in the same business, and were trading quite well. They were caught for trademark infringement and so. Comment from the journalist was something like: "explaining to the defendants wh
Re:Laughable, given certain traditions. (Score:4, Insightful)
Please list the ten biggest examples of innovators[tm] whose efforts wilted because of copying.
To be clear: I want ten examples of failure not because the inventor threw his toys out of the pram ("I'm not writing any more music until u guise stop downloading pirated MP3s I'm entitled to more money!!!") but because their efforts became genuinely financially unsustainable.
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Wait, you want someone to list the companies that noone will ever have heard of because they failed? If we have heard of them, they would have been big enough to overcome such an obstacle.
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Yes, that's right, I want assertions to be backed up with evidence. Is this going to be a problem?
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Nono, its Ok, we can just play his game.
Please name 10 grocery stores that failed due to shoplifting. You cant, Ergo, shoplifting is harmless.
Is this how the game is played?
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If you can't answer a question, set up a straw man, eh?
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Statistics are the result of aggregating individual data points. If you can't give me ten data points in your favour, the implied assertion is incorrect.
Easy: Light bulb, Cotton GIn , Telephone (Score:2)
Please list the ten biggest examples of innovators[tm] whose efforts wilted because of copying.
To be clear: I want ten examples of failure not because the inventor threw his toys out of the pram ("I'm not writing any more music until u guise stop downloading pirated MP3s I'm entitled to more money!!!") but because their efforts became genuinely financially unsustainable.
Easy...
Eli Whitney was driven to ruin after rampant copying of his patented cotton gin. He did not continue inventing.
http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventions/a/cotton_gin.htm [about.com]
Edison slavishly copied Swans patented carbon filament light bulb slavishly.
http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/edison.asp [coolquiz.com]
Elisha Gray filed his patent on the telephone before Alexander Graham bell.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Gray_and_Alexander_Bell_telephone_controversy [wikipedia.org]
But I doubt anything could convince you. Bu
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Whitney continued to invent. As an example, a few years later he signed a contract with the government for creating rifles using standardized parts. He then went and squandered that money trying to sue those who copied the gin and lost in the Southern courts, which is why he died penniless. Yes, those who sue, rather than invent go broke - big surprise.
Swan's lamp had a very short lifespan because his carbon filament was thick, requiring high-current and, thus, burned out quickly. Edison came across the ide
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1) Flash
2) Photoshop
both were easilly pirateable and crackable so they became incredibly popular.
I admit, that's only two things, but it's a start.
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You must be a kid.
Lots of fools bought IBM PCs then PC/XPs then PC/ATs. Later they bought IBM ps2s. You might remember ps2 connectors that your dad used before USB.
There was a time when IBM ps2s were relative bargains next to Compaqs. Compaqs were tanks made of 8 gauge steel and sold at profit margins that would have made Steve Jobs blush.
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IBM doesn't manufacture computers, they sold that to Lenovo a LONG time ago. IBM still makes Servers, but that's about all there.
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Making a similar product is not the same as a concerted effort to copy products.
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I think it will work, because it will stop some of the more blatant fakes and move it out of the big highstreet stores. Yes there will still be fakes, but at least people will know they are buying them, and know where to go if they don't want to buy them.
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I live in the most developed part of China: Hong Kong. I may be a westerner, but that remark really echoes what many people around here say about Chinese, particularly mainlanders of course. You even hear it on the mainland.
And have seen first-hand time and again that they love to copy things. The iPad had barely hit the shelves, and cheap Android based lookalikes were offered already (advertised as "7-inch iPad").
Mainlanders really have a love for fake stuff, they even have a "miss plastic surgery" elect
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Because that's what's currently thoroughly lacking in China: they copy, but do not improve anything of it or create their own designs based on imported designs, which is what gave the Japanese their early edge and what helped propel that country to the top of the world's economies.
And Chinese companies, having copied successfully, are now starting to innovate - exactly as the Japanese did. Japan went though an early stage when "Made in Japan" meant shoddy look-alikes. From which, over thirty years, they transitions to where the same phrase meant quality advanced products. China is already embarked down that road - it won't be thirty years before they have a similar reputation. While there is still a lot of cheap tat coming out of China, companies like Huawei are producing kit that is
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Amen to that. If there's another way to explain DealExtreme's free shipping and continually getting away with lying to customs on pretty much every package than government influence, I don't know what it is. As I see it, the Chinese Government is directly aiding and abetting the sale of fake goods. ($5 Foakleys... last about half as long as $100 real ones)
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$5 Foakleys... last about half as long as $100 real ones
And this is bad, why, exactly?
If you buy 4 Foakleys for $20, they will last twice as long as the $100 "real" ones.
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Whether it is effective or not remains to be seen.
no we need work done on fixing old Bridges / old p (Score:2)
no we need work done on fixing old Bridges / old pipes and other stuff.
One million? (Score:5, Funny)
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In this case, it will likely just turn around and bite the marketing brands right on the butt. A lot of consumers will find the only difference between the correctly unkown brand and the branded version is the label with a 1000% markup and a whole lot of B$ advertising they now don't have to pay for.
Hell, all I want is an honest review site where branded crap with weighed down by a crap load of advertising costs is accurately compared to the unbranded stuff coming from the same factory in China.
Bugger
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I buy stuff on quality and not on brand name. A $20-60 pair of slacks will hold together just as well as $800 Armani slacks. I don't need pretentiousness clinging to my balls all day.
Dealextreme? (Score:2)
How will this affect the cheap stuff I buy from Dealextreme and similar (including Ebay) sites in China, whose wares show up often properly-branded (sometimes even including hologram tags) on my doorstep quickly and inexpensively?
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how is this benifical to china? (Score:1)
pulling 1 million workers out of the private sector and assigning them the job of discouraging trade... it's for the economy's own good!
That's before even starting the debate of whether ip protection promotes growth.
Why won't people just share? (Score:2)
China black-banned (Score:3)
It is one of two countries that we have black-banned for legal reasons.
The other is the US. We're not a big software house, and we can't afford the PI insurance to sell products in America.
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Black-banned?
I understand the term "black-balled."
I also understand the term "banned"
But "black-banned?" Please define.
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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_the_saying_Black_Ban_originate [answers.com]
Origin: Australia (Circa 1925)
History: The Australian Labor Movement (Unions) required legal financial membership of the appropriate union. They would issue a membership card printed and signed in black ink.
Usage: Unions would place work bans upon various employers or work sites where the employer used non-union labor/practices. They would also place bans for political reasons. The term "black ban" means Union members not allowed to work for or at an employer or work site. The term is non-racist.
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The term is non-racist.
I thought the standard these days, to determine whether something is racist, is whether anyone is offended by the term.
We can't name our college team the Redskins, to honor the tribe for which the school is named, since there are some who might be offended by our attempt to honor our past.
Whites cannot use the N-word, while blacks can, because blacks aren't offended when other blacks use it.
A term like "he gypped me." can't be used these days, because a gypsy may be offended (even though the person who uses
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Black-banned?
I understand the term "black-balled."
I also understand the term "banned"
But "black-banned?" Please define.
Did you hear what he said? He's proud his company has disallowed legitimate ownership of the software in a country to prevent piracy in that country??? I'd say more apt terms are "face palm" or perhaps "face plant".
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No. I'm pretty sure he used black-banned. It is used in a few parts of the world to mark places where products aren't sold. Aussieland, Canada and India use this term.
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Our software company has already black-banned China. We flatly refuse to license any product in China due to IP concerns. /we know this wont stop them from copying it. It is a deterrant.
So it's a piracy deterent to make the only way to get your product piracy?
You don't even see the stupidity do you? Stop drinking the cool-aid. It's toxic.
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Sorry.. that sounds inflammatory. Let me try again.
As soon as one copy of our software exists legally in China, they can copy it ad-nauseum.
As long as every Chinese instance of our software is illegal, we have a legal option.
It also makes it easier for our staff - eg 'Uh.. you're in China. Sorry, we don't sell our software in China'. Therefore... why would anyone in China want our software? Therefore... piracy deterrant. Doesn't seem so stupid
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The other is the US. We're not a big software house, and we can't afford the PI insurance to sell products in America.
Professional Indemnity insurance?? What type of hellish software are you writing that you need protection frm bodily injury r property dmg due t r company’s negligence? I hope you are not selling in the UK either!
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We make medical records software. If someone dies at the hands of the medical professional, we're next in the firing line regardless of whether our software was at fault.
The legal costs of selling software overseas is often less about the 'level of risk' involved in the software, and more about the litigious nature of the country we're selling into. The price on PI insurance is not something we set or control. The insurance companies do that. They ar
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That's bollocks (as in untrue, not incredible). And I say that from the perspective of a developer at a healthcare IT company.
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Your credibility is zip. I'd prefer to hear what the owner of your healthcare IT company says.
I own mine.
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I'm not pissed off about it and I'm an American (or a US citizen for you "sensitive PC" types). If the cost of doing business in the US is too high, then it makes sense not to do business there. I am curious about what Professional Indemnity Insurance is needed by a Software Publisher, does the GP's company produce software for SCADA systems or medical systems?
Coming very soon, world brands from China (Score:5, Insightful)
Knockoffs belong to an earlier stage of commerce. China is now moving into the branding era. Haier, the largest manufacturer of major appliances in the world, based in Shandong, now sells in the US under its own name. [haieramerica.com] Yesterday, BYD Cars, a major automaker in China, opened their US headquarters. [byd.com]
Someday, Foxconn will decide they no longer need Apple.
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I've seen Haier stuff for sale in the US for years -- mostly on goods that involve refrigeration of some kind. Looking at your link, I see that its available offerings have not changed much recently.
I have a Haier chest freezer in my utility room, and it was already rather old when I got a couple of years ago.
The BYD Cars thing is another point entirely, but I (for one) am completely satisfied at calling Bullshit on exactly 50% of your post.
FWIW, YMMV, et cetera.
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And it's about time that they start to develop their own brands. China has been developing for several decades by now, and their manufacturers have only managed to establish a handful of brand locally, and even less internationally. For the rest it's all brand-less, no-name stuff that can compete on nothing but price.
Brands tell who it comes from, and give an indication of quality. Be it low, mid or high quality - the important thing is that you see BMW your expectations on quality, price, etc. are differe
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So those chinese cars are the same rolling death traps that we already know and love right? Fatal crashes at 30mph.
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Exactly like Lenovo.
And don't forget the famous Chinese brand Hummer.
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Haier is a former State-owned corporation, with very tight links to the top levels of government. It would be very unwise for another manufacturer to copy Haier's products and logos, within China. Some well-connected Chinese brands will enjoy western-style IP protection, within Chinese borders. Of course, the Chinese government will expect protection for its brands overseas, as well.
Quality Fade [upenn.edu] is a concept that Westerners need to understand thoroughly.
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Beware the Christmas Lights! (Score:3)
If you believe these idiots everything from blue jeans to DVDs will kill you unless it comes from the right factory and has a little hologram on the label.
Not to mention that tons of illicit product out there is perfectly authentic; it's just not licensed. Just because a license gets pulled doesn't always mean the owners stop churning out the product, and even while the place is licensed there's often some after-hours manufacturing to make extra money on the black market.
At some point we'll have to accept that intellectual property isn't a natural law; some people and some entire nations won't follow it simply because they don't believe in it, and America won't regain its economic prowess via all of this endless arm twisting, extortion, and bribery aimed at exporting our intellectual property law.
We won't get away with basing our entire economy on licensing payments, Hollywood fantasies, and financial products. The sooner people just accept that the sooner we can start fixing shit.
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I love the way stupid ways companies try to discourage product copying. Like the way they insist, no matter the type of product, that knockoffs are a safety hazard.
If you believe these idiots everything from blue jeans to DVDs will kill you unless it comes from the right factory and has a little hologram on the label.
Not to mention that tons of illicit product out there is perfectly authentic; it's just not licensed. Just because a license gets pulled doesn't always mean the owners stop churning out the product, and even while the place is licensed there's often some after-hours manufacturing to make extra money on the black market.
At some point we'll have to accept that intellectual property isn't a natural law; some people and some entire nations won't follow it simply because they don't believe in it, and America won't regain its economic prowess via all of this endless arm twisting, extortion, and bribery aimed at exporting our intellectual property law.
We won't get away with basing our entire economy on licensing payments, Hollywood fantasies, and financial products. The sooner people just accept that the sooner we can start fixing shit.
Right.
Because there is nothing wrong with Chinese counterfeit bolts made of low-grade steel but marked as high strength, right? You'd want those holding your seat and seat belt to your car frame, right?
And you wouldn't sue the car company if the bolts failed in an accident.
If you want to buy some fake jeans or a fancy D&G bag on the black market, it'll probably be fine. But the knockoffs can a safety hazard for any product that is actually regulated for safety. Maybe your fake Chinese kid's toy is ma
Re:Beware the Christmas Lights! (Score:4, Informative)
The problem with those knock-offs is not so much product copying, but brand copying. E.g. US Superbolt produces quality and strength certified bolts, with a price tag to match. Then Chinabolt produces the same bolts, but sells them at lower price under their own brand. Fine: you know what you buy, you know there is no strength certification, so don't use these bolts when you need such a quality guarantee. That doesn't say Chinabolt's bolts are poor quality - they may be just as strong, they're just not tested and certified to be.
The problem starts when Chinabolt starts selling their bolts in Superbolt look-alike packing, claiming to be guaranteed strong enough, just half price. And that's a problem that should be tackled head-on. You must know what you buy, and currently in China unless you're absolutely sure what you buy is the original (how to be so sure, that's another matter) you'd better assume it's a knock-off.
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The problem gets distinctly worse when Chinabolt sells Superbolt look-alikes, but decides that the product is just too expensive to make. They cut the quality, but leave the packaging intact.
Never underestimate how pervasive fake stuff is in Chinese culture. I suspect that part of the reason for this crackdown is that Chinese people themselves can't figure out what is real and what is fake. For example: "Deslon Germany" cookware. Looks like pretty good quality, claims to be a German product. The Chinese peo
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There is no such thing as "natural law". Get over it and start treating people fairly. It's the only rational basis for morality, not some pie-in-the-sky "natural law".
"We
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Yeah, I've seen those figures about the US being ahead in manufacturing.
But are they really legit?
Does buying 10 turnkey parts from China, and putting the final few bolts in the US count as "Made in the USA"?
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I concur. Though you have to admit: IP laws suck if you're an innovator, but they're money in the bank if you're an IP lawyer.
This will increase inflation in China (Score:1)
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Or things are cheaper because they now pay the real price for the former fake object.
These products have been developed if they are actually useful people will continue to buy them.
How does this work exactly??? (Score:2)
...996...997...998...999... Okay you, your job is the keep the other 999 folks honest!
1m people employed... (Score:1)
Numbers don't add up (Score:1)
Seems like PRspeak. China has a working population of about 500-600 million of which probably 300 million are in the manufacturing sector (remove agriculture and services). A 1 million strong workforce means one person for every 300 workers just to check counterfeiting. Something wrong here. I guess these are just buzzword to show how much the Chinese govt is doing against piracy. It signals intent rather than actual implementation.
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Might as well just finish the west (Score:2)
Now, if they would move the engineering there, they will find that it becomes like what happened to Google (stolen by gov. plants inside of your company). At that point, any good stockholder would fir
Is the west buying the fakes! (Score:2)
I think this plan will not work and I think that China does not want it to work. I do not want it to work either! Fake hand bags, watches, and so on are a huge tourist draw for China.
I have been all over China, heck my wife is from China. One thing I notices, ALL her girl friends have expensive hand bags. LV, coach, execrate and none of them have fake bags. They spends tons on the real deal.
When ever we go back to China, we normally will buy two are three fakes for our German friends or friends back in the
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It's n
The streets aren't necessarily where its happening (Score:2)
... remove fake goods from Chinese streets ...
And what about the parking garage level that is entirely reserved for a swap meet type environment with the most blatant pirated and fake goods? Some of this stuff has already been moving from high visibility areas to more "underground" venues. All the locals know where to go.
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Actually, you can never buy the good fakes on the street. You have to "order" them. Normally it takes like 40 min to get the good stuff. Some times, you come with them through a maze of houses and go into one. I dont do this though unless I am with a bigger group.
Best to go to one of the markets and discreetly inquire about a higher quality product. Really, you cant tell the difference. All marks which should be there, all the tell tails. Everything is at it should be.
One million people (Score:3)
Looking to get bribed to look the other way.
Theft and copying are second nature over there.
As is graft.
One of my clients had their entire COMPANY cloned over there. They never produced anything there. They never outsourced anything there. They never even hired anyone from there. Someone simply set up a shadow company, expropriated all the logos, model names, etc and set themselves up in the business of building exact knockoffs.
It ran for nearly 3 years before someone over there screwed up and tried to be creative (by putting out a product line that wasn't a perfect knockoff). One day my customer gets a service call for a product line they don't produce. They go round and round with the people and finally dispatch a technician from their nearest office (Japan).
All that getting the authorities involved did was cause the company to simply move, change their name and continue making knockoffs. As long as someone's palm is being greased, they'll never be shut down for good.
Anyone even considering outsourcing ANYTHING to China nowadays is a fucking idiot.
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One of my clients had their entire COMPANY cloned over there. They never produced anything there. They never outsourced anything there. They never even hired anyone from there. Someone simply set up a shadow company, expropriated all the logos, model names, etc and set themselves up in the business of building exact knockoffs.
Sounds like they have not set up any presence or registered their trademark there either. So why in the hell do you think their government should care about that? Try setting a complete knock-off of some brand-named Chinese products that are not sold here (Huiyuan Juice?) and see if anybody cares. The first step for protection is to pay up to lawyers and governments.
And the primary reasons we don't see many counterfeit products on the street stores here are
Who is kidding whom here? (Score:3, Insightful)
China cracking down on counterfeit goods, eh? First off despite what the article says, I doubt China is really serious about this problem. I suspect it will be just like the problem of how China is "very serious about curbing the digital information available to it's own population," i.e. the Great firewall of China. This prevents information from getting into or or even out China. (My cousin went to China last summer and could not even post to facebook or his own blog) Yet despite China claiming they police their own citizens, in reality next to nothing actually done to control their citizen's attacking my servers on a daily basis. I average 3 to 6 hacking attempts per day. Over 90 percent of that traffic comes from China. Am I supposed to be happy that the situation isn't 10x times worse?
The Chinese government doesn't really seem to be too concerned with efforts make their citizens play nice with the rest of the world... So how are we supposed to believe they are taking the issue of black market / counterfeit goods seriously?
Curbing counterfeit goods or stopping hackers from illegal activity is a moral ethics problem as much as anything and I just don't see the Chinese government encouraging (or enforcing) it's citizens to do the right thing. This seems like another "we're getting tough on crime" PR stunt but in reality it's just business as usual.
I'm writing this from China (Score:2)
Slashdot
CNN/SI
Yahoo including email
Gmail
Google - works but it redirects to Google Hong Kong and they make it kind of slow to connect
CNN
Fox News
Yahoo Finance
Wikipedia although it's well known that articles about certain
Which counterfeit brands? (Score:1)
At least some big Chinese companies are now starting to build up their own intellectual property and branding.
I'd guess, that's what their Government is aiming to protect.
Good luck with that.
Not a million full-timers (Score:1)
I would doubt that this means a million full-time workers. My guess is that most of that million is people paid a small fee and a commission for looking out when they go to the markets in then normal course of their lives and whistleblowing when they see counterfeits. Obviously, there will be some full time organisers, and some full-time enforcers. But that figure of a million strikes me as a PR figure to tell the world that the government is taking conterfeiting seriously.
More likely a million more bribe recipients (Score:2)
Graft and corruption is endemic in Chinese society, so this is more of an opportunity for the newly employed to line their pockets with money from bribes.
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actually it is improving, especially in the coastal cities.
Damn! I'll Have to get my fakes from Malaysia now (Score:2)
WHAT?!?!?! They're getting rid of fakes?
Won't somebody please thing of the kids? How can I afford to buy my kids their toys?
Sorry son, no "Rego Hally Potter" for you this christmas.
more anti-pirates than pirates (Score:1)
Not useful to the rest of us? (Score:2)
there were about 1 million people employed to remove fake goods from Chinese streets
So, no one trying to stop the many more fake goods that are being exported then?
Capitalism requires markets (Score:1)
The Silk Market Test (Score:2)
Right in Beijing you've the got (in)famous Silk Market [wikipedia.org], which is packed full of every fake leather good you can possibly imagine. You can buy Hermes for a few hundred bucks, or Chanel fakes, or whatever you want. Some of the fakes are of high quality; most are crap.
Will the Silk Market disappear?
Quagmire envy (Score:1)
Looks like China isn't cool with the USA cornering the market on endless, unwinnable wars.