Arizona "Papers, Please" Law May Hit Tech Workers 1590
dcblogs writes "H-1B workers and foreign students may think twice about attending school or working in Arizona as a result of the state's new immigration law. If a police officer has a 'reasonable suspicion' about the immigration status of someone, the officer may ask to see proof of legal status. Federal immigration law requires all non-US citizens, including H-1B workers, to carry documentation, but 'no state until Arizona has made it a crime to not have that paperwork on your person,' said immigration lawyer Sarah Hawk. It means that an H-1B holder risks detention every time they make a 7-11 run if they don't have their papers, or if their paperwork is out of date because US immigration authorities are behind in processing (which condition does not make them illegal). The potential tech backlash over the law may have begun yesterday with a call by San Francisco City Atty. Dennis Herrera 'to adopt and implement a sweeping boycott of the State of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses.'"
Re:Uh... contradictory? (Score:3, Interesting)
Moreover... they can't just ask you for no reason, there has to be reasonable suspicion, and on top of that, it's already written into the bill that they must obey existing law: skin color, race, or country of origin is NOT acceptable for reason of suspicion.
The reaction to this bill is WAY overblown; it's pretty ridiculous... as pointed out, it's not even a new law regarding immigration, it's a new law to simply encourage enforcement.
I know some of you want us to just take everybody that strolls in, but right now there's a legal process to do it.
On top of all that, they won't even necessarily arrest you... if you give them your information they can look you up.
grand experiemnt (Score:5, Interesting)
I fully support Arizona in this experiment. I suspect the reason they have done this is because, unlike other border states like Texas and New Mexico( all three of which showed incredible job growth pre-2009), Arizona now has the county with the highest percentage job loss in the country. I am sure scaring foreign visitors to Texas and New Mexico, instead of Arizona, to shop at the stores, pay sales tax, eat at the restaurants, and even take helicopter rides from the airport to our shopping malls, will help their economy greatly. The kids may even go to university and settle down to engineering jobs that pay huge amounts of payroll and income tax. So far, at least in Texas, it has worked well.
But that is fine. If Arizona thinks that foreign money has negative value due to documentation or the blight of having people looking for work instead of playing video games or skin color(arizona is the only of the three states that is majority white non-hispanic) or whatever, so be it. We will see if they can achieve economic growth in an isolationist environment. Given that they have one of the highest federal support rate in the country, I doubt it.
I don't see the problem. (Score:5, Interesting)
And I live in a pretty laid-back country, too (Finland). Arizona is just trying to enforce the existing law. That is not a tragedy. It's a tragedy if it's done inconsistently.
Re:Quite reasonable (Score:3, Interesting)
Such as being brown-skinned. Such as with this guy [youtube.com] who was arrested and had to get his wife to bring his birth certificate to the police station. He had a commercial driver's license and everything, but the police still demanded to see his birth certificate right then and there.
Re:Uh... contradictory? (Score:4, Interesting)
They need a new law to enforce the law that is already a law? That don't make no sense.
Just to piss you people off, we should open the borders. If goods and capital can move freely, why shouldn't cheap labor? The world is flat, get used to it.
Japan does this already. (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, it doesn't bother me. For me, having my wallet or ID with me when I go out is just common sense... not some kind of panty-twisting injustice that I have to carry like a ball-and-chain. It's just common sense.
So I don't see what the big deal is. Now, on the other hand, if people are just stopped randomly on the basis of their appearance and not because of anything in particular they were doing, then yes, that would bother me. That bothers me in Japan, too. But having to carry an ID? Not a big deal -- you should be doing it already.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:4, Interesting)
Technically yes, but those requirements usually aren't strictly enforced. I don't usually carry my passport on my person in foreign countries, because it greatly increases the risk of it being damaged/lost/stolen. Especially if you go to the beach; are you supposed to take it swimming with you, or leave it unprotected under a beach umbrella? I've never heard of tourists being arrested for that, either, at least in relatively sane western countries. If you get stopped for some reason and tell the policeman that your passport is back in the safe at your hotel, they'll either just take your word for it, or follow you back to your hotel to get it. They won't charge you with a criminal not-carrying-passport offense, because that would be stupid.
And in the U.S., permanent residents typically aren't hassled, at least until now. Officially a green-card holder needs to carry their green card with them, but in practice this has never really been enforced in an onerous way. My mom was a permanent resident for decades before eventually getting around to getting citizenship, and I don't think she was ever asked to show her green card outside of circumstances where it was clearly necessary, like upon reentry into the U.S., I-9 employment verification, or other such bureaucratic stuff. She certainly didn't carry it while jogging.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:2, Interesting)
Given that the US is a country of immigrants and therefore anyone and everyone looks like an immigrant, police can detain you until you prove that you are a citizen.
I'm a native-born US citizen of Italian descent who is frequently mistaken for a Latino, even by actual Latinos who come up to me and start speaking Spanish. I also travel through Arizona on a fairly regular basis. I will be curious to see if I'm ever asked to prove my citizenship. Sure hope I'm not going to have to start carrying a passport to in order to keep from being shipped to Mexico.
That's the real problem (Score:5, Interesting)
The bill doesn't require citizens to carry documents, it can't, that'd be illegal. So you have the problem that more or less you'd have to take someone at their word. Now while you may argue that smart enforcement of it could be useful, that isn't what will happen. What will happen is Arizona is going to get on the losing end of a federal civil rights lawsuit:
A racist cop (because there are some police that are racists, just like any other segment of the population) is going to decide that someone is brown enough that they must be an immigrant and has done something allegedly suspicious demand their papers. Said person, who is a citizen, will tell them to fuck off. They arrest him. Turns out, like many people, he doesn't have ready access to documents to prove his citizenship so he's held in jail for some time. Citizenship is established, he goes free. He files suit against Arizona for violating his rights, since citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship. Arizona loses money they really do not have.
That is a real problem here.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:2, Interesting)
In particular, more than a few pundits are trying to portray this law as giving law officers the power to go door-to-door in search of illegal aliens to bust. In actuality, there is no such powers, and officers may only ask for papers if there is an altercation. In that case, since officers usually ask to see ID's of any involved persons during any dispute on the street, nobody should have a problem with the Arizona law unless they're trying to make a big deal out of nothing.
Arizona is home to Maricopa County & Sherrif Joe Arpaio [wikipedia.org].
Any way this law might be abused, those particular guys will probably find a way to do it.
Re:This is a non story. (Score:1, Interesting)
Oh, so it's only the Hispanics? Well, now that makes it all all right!
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's an interesting story for you:
Some fifteen years ago, I was one of the three "foreign" students in our dorm. I'm brown. The other was Hispanic. Our dorm was more nerdy than most. More social than nerdy really. Most of us hung out in the lounge, played piano, etc.. But for most of the year, there was a guessing game going on as to who the third foreigner was. No one could figure it out. Towards the end of the year, it came to light that it was this girl - who was hanging out with us ALL THIS TIME when we were trying to guess who it was. Now, the ONLY difference between me and this girl (apart from the anatomical differences between a dude and a dudette) was that I'm brown and she was nordic. Neither of us had an accent or other tell-tale signs of 'foreign-ness'. Yet, people pegged me as a foreigner without blinking. No one - and I mean no one - guessed her.
I'm now a citizen. I would imagine by now she is too. If both of us are driving down a highway in Arizona guess who will be stopped? Guess who has to carry documentation on his/her person at all times. "Papriska, please?" (think Red-October)
Fine. If Arizona is just enforcing the fed law, tell me how they can enforce it EQUALLY and I mean non-racially. Would they ever stop this girl and ask for her papers? Would they ever stop me and ask me for mine? On what basis? If your answer is anything other than the perma-tan-age of my epidermis ... The point of the above anecdote is that people start out with the assumption that I'm a foreigner (btw, my son isn't. but he isn't going to fare much better.) Yet no one "sees" other foreigners just like me if they don't look quite like me.
I know it's a bunch of hypotheticals (would they? who knows). But the point is that as a minority I already have to tread carefully. In AZs case, I have to not only avoid drawing suspicion, I have to carry docs - just in case I get pulled over. Midnight run to taco bell? Umm... where's the passport honey? Fuck that noise. And fuck AZ. Hide behind the justification of "it's the law" all you want. All kinds of things have been "the law" at some point or another. Don't mean it's right.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:4, Interesting)
Perhaps I should have explained more clearly. When he didn't show them his birth certificate (and who carries this around with them 24/7?), they *arrested* him!
Those were Federal Agents. Strange. I don't remember seeing the protest over that. It wasn't until Arizona passed a law that says, "We have the same rights as the Feds do in our state" that everyone started throwing such a shit fit.
So, where was this post back when the FEDS arrested this guy? Actually it supports the idea that maybe local Arizona police should be handling this.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've lost one vehicle to theft; found weeks later with an illegal alien (from Mexico) behind the wheel. All removable components removed. It was paid off prior and insurance did not cover full price to get a new one though they did pay a lot. But they probably raised everyone who pays insurance a little to cover it so no worries to the illegal immigrants.
I've been hit twice in hit and runs; luckily I was able to follow them and get police to their location. First time, the police gave them a ticket, told me they were not legal (from Mexico) and to just deal with my insurance. When I asked why they weren't being detained to deport it was due to the city of Phoenix police not being allowed to enforce immigration (this was around '02). Second time, they were detained by the sheriff dept which is all I know, and again it was my insurance that had to pay the tab (see the trend here) each time with me paying deductibles and 100% of aftermarket equip.
My son was in an accident and his foot was sliced open to the bone. I carried him in to the ER that evening and it was packed wall to wall, no room to stand. We checked in at the desk and then we were asked to step outside and wait because it was safer outside. You see the ER was packed with illegal immigrants who did not have insurance and were using it as a clinic to treat the flu, common colds, strep throat... stuff you take to a regular Dr. So the facilities tax payers have contributed to so its there in the event of an emergency is over-run. A nurse came outside after a half hour and walked us around to a side door where they finally treated my sons foot.
For states that are not on the border, immigration may not seem like it's a bad problem but for states that are on the border its a huge problem. It's expensive and though activists will tell you otherwise it's a big impact on crime.
A few points you should understand since you want to be a citizen of the US.
- Illegal immigrants do not have a right to be here. That's why they call it 'illegal'.
- It's not the burden of the US for an immigrant to gain citizenship; it's the immigrants burden!
- This country is losing money fast and illegal immigration costs more each year than the war effort overseas.
- Many of us already citizens have fought for and killed for this country, possibly close to you right now; it is NOT a good idea to tell us to get fucked.
I congratulate you for taking the high road and doing whatever it takes to get your citizenship. You seem to be jumping through the hoops and paying for it. It's not easy to be an American is it? It's damned expensive and it doesn't stop when you get the paper either. Maybe you can move to Arizona and help us pay for the illegal immigrants that flood across the border. That would be great! We need all the help we can get.
Could you imagine living in a state where you have to pass a state law just to make state law enforcement enforce federal laws already in place? Is that not the strangest concept? Honestly I never thought it would pass, the opposition for it is very large. Unfortunately, the lower ranks of law enforcement will probably find a way to abuse it. I hope not though, I sincerely hope that its put to good use and impacts legal citizens and legal immigrants as little as possible.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:5, Interesting)
Right. Tell that to these people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7F49dUaZMw [youtube.com] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDW4Fszj2U [youtube.com] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQLFITnwgDI [youtube.com] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmPi2GbbUes [youtube.com] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udf1tY3Fl2U [youtube.com] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frL6rRbGAdw [youtube.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc [youtube.com] Fast forward to about 3/4's through. An experienced cop admitting that when he followed a car long enough he could make a legal stop because at some point everyone makes a mistake. (I presume feeling nervous that a cop has been following you the last 8 blocks also doesn't help one's situation.)
80% (Score:1, Interesting)
Nearly 80% of the Arizona population fully supports the bill so all the crying in the world is not likely to stop it.
In fact just 5 days ago a local phoenix grocery chain got busted for employing nearly 300 illegal workers. The very next day hundreds upon hundreds of legal american workers showed up to apply for those now vacant positions. I guess that just proves the nobody wants those jobs theory all wrong.
What happens if I step foot in Mexico? Thats right if someone asks me for my passport I had damn well better be able to produce it.
The truth is the law is gonna work and I am sure the fed govt is running scared about it for that very reason. When the unemployment rate drops like a rock the other states will follow suit extremely fast.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:3, Interesting)
Contrast that with the opposite scenario - I know of over a few dozen Americans (half of whom you'd classify as "good ole white folk" types) who have illegally come to Canada and we've given up on trying to get rid of them by shipping them back to the US.
The worst part - they don't fit in. They want to have all the benefits of Canada, but keep acting like big-mouthed Americans. Except for the 4 draft dodgers. They just had this air of sadness around them. You could tell that, come amnesty time, they'd head back to the US - we were just a port of convenience.
Maybe we should treat Americans the way Americans treat Mexicans?
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:1, Interesting)
In Texas I am required to show my ID (if asked) whenever I leave my home. I don't see what is so different about this law.
All Arizona is doing is taking away the "I left my ID/paperwork at home and you can't prove I didn't" excuse.
Living in San Antonio makes me part of the silent minority that support this law and wish they would pass it here.
Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:1, Interesting)
Ahh, that's nice. Since I don't have an Arizona driver's license (I have an Oregon driver's license), and don't feel like acquiring and carrying with me at all times a notarized original birth certificate, I will not visit Arizona.
So far as I can tell, I'd still be subject to a hefty fine for not carrying said birth certificate even if I can, eventually, prove my citizenship. It's not worth the risk.
Plus, I'd rather take my dollars to someplace less xenophobic and less racist that doesn't flaunt its fascist impulses.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:1, Interesting)
Speaking as a US citizen, having an immigrant mother (naturalized) and a father who has served this country (and, coincidentally is also the son of an immigrant). I really think the onus is on you to get fucked.
1. If you want to be worshiped for doing what you are supposed to be doing in the first place (not breaking the law), keep in mind that there are _many_ generations before you that also did it the right way.
2. If you have a problem with the way things run, either work to fix it, or get the fuck out. I hope you choose the first option.
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately, the lower ranks of law enforcement will probably find a way to abuse it. I hope not though, I sincerely hope that its put to good use and impacts legal citizens and legal immigrants as little as possible.
This is the problem with the law. Everyone gets caught up talking about illegal immigrants, but that's not the issue -- if there were a way to deal with illegal immigration without it affecting actual citizens quite so much, it would be done, and that would be that.
When you're entrusting police officers with powers that you "sincerely hope" will not be abused, you are throwing away the protections of citizenship and removing the burdens we have placed upon government to ensure that we have those protections.
This law won't "probably" be abused, it WILL be abused, and it will not only target illegal immigrants. If this law actually comes into effect, then every single person in the state should be carrying every kind of identification they have with them at all times, especially if they are of latino or hispanic heritage. You can be a perfectly legit US citizen and get pulled over for speeding and have to deal with the police hassling you because they don't like you. You may think it unlikely, but "sincere hope" isn't enough to ordain the rule of law. You may be white as can be, but if a cop dislikes you, sees your name McPatrick after pulling you over for a minor traffic violation, he could walk his way down the line of questioning to "so you just moved here from Ireland illegaly, eh son?"
The reason illegal immigration is so hard to deal with is because the USA guarantees protections of its citizens. You can deal with illegal immigration easily, but to do so means giving up those protections!
The goddamn president of the country can barely present enough proof to satisfy millions of people, many of whom serve in the military or on police forces -- how do you expect a legal US citizen of Mexican descent to do so? This law will not fix the problems you have just complained about, and it will provide legal protections to cops who get self-righteous enough to feel like harassing just about anyone they choose. It's a travesty, and even lending it a scent of legitimacy, let alone speaking out in favor of it, does more harm to this country than any amount of "fighting for and killing" for it could ever achieve. Get off your high horse and stop pretending that it's not so bad since it probably won't affect you. It WILL affect US citizens, and you are just throwing them to the wind with your support of the legislation, no matter how tepid it may be.
It's a travesty that so many people can seemingly support even the concept of this legislation, let alone an actual state government actually coming so close to putting it into effect. Anyone who supports this law, including you, should be ashamed of themselves.
I'm from Arizona - I see the words..... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What about the presumption of innocence? (Score:3, Interesting)
Secondly, there's nothing in the law which states that a US citizen would be fined for not having a birth certificate on their person.
Nope, you just get detained until they find your paperwork. Which is actually worse than being fined. At least you can contest a fine in court.
Thirdly, if you want to take your dollars to someplace less "xenophobic and less racist", then leave the United States. The Arizona law you're complaining about mirrors existing Federal law which requires legal aliens to carry their immigration paperwork
Does it require US citizens to carry their paperwork with them under threat of detention?