Photos of Chinese Sweatshop Used By Microsoft 539
MongooseCN has a follow-up to last week's Chinese Sweatshop story. He says "The image Microsoft doesn't want you to see: Too tired to stay awake. These Chinese workers earn just 34p an hour (about 52 cents in US dollars), work 15-hour shifts, and deal with other abuses to package US-made products."
Who cares? (Score:1, Insightful)
Welcome to Earth.
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) You made 0.52USD in a fraction of an hour
2) You could have quit and found another programming job, most likely within a drivable distance from where you live.
Re:There's a problem with that (Score:5, Insightful)
Wal-Mart profits too much from their form of slavery to ask for decency(even if it gets rid of those pesky labor unions in the US).
Re:Who cares? (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuck you.
Change conditions, not factories (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice headline, what about Apple, etc? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know we always want to bash Microsoft here at Slashdot, but did the submitter fail to notice Foxconn (Apple's supplier), Hewlett-Packard, Samsung, Acer, Logitech and Asus all use this same manufacturing house? How about:
"Photos of Chinese Sweatshop Used By US Tech Companies"
I guess that just doesn't have the same bite? At least it's more accurate.
Re:I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:5, Insightful)
Money (Score:5, Insightful)
These Chinese workers earn just 34p an hour (about 52 cents in US dollars), work 15 hours shifts
The $.52 is meaningless; how much does an apartment cost? What is the price of food? When I was in Thailand in the USAF in 1974, the average wage was about $1,000/yr, but I rented a bungalow for $30/month (woman included), and could take three girls to a nice restaraunt for a dollar. It cost a nickle to go anywhere.
How many hours a day do American Microsoft programmers work?
It isn't just the Chinese who are being exploited, it's also the Americans whose jobs have been exported to China, and maybe even their American staff.
Re:I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that this is more the point:
They are not allowed to talk or listen to music, are forced to eat substandard meals from the factory cafeterias, have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
The workers also sleep on site, in factory dormitories, with 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28in-wide plywood boards. They 'shower' with a sponge and a bucket.
And many of the workers, because they are young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC claimed.
The organisation said that one worker was even fined for losing his finger while operating a hole punch press.
Re:industrial revolution (Score:4, Insightful)
At least here in northern Europe it got better when we formed labor unions and associated political parties, then we got new laws that protected the workers against the worst abuse. This is about a hundred years ago so not many people remembers it directly anymore, which is widely evident in political discussions today. Sure it can get to far the other way and we end up with ridiculous worker rights like full pension when your 50 and stuff like that. But profit seeking companies will not give their worker fair wages and decent working conditions unless they absolutely have to.
How is this gonna happen in China?
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not still a one party state and "workers paradise"?
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:3, Insightful)
What does $0.52/hr mean relative to cost of living? Maybe it's horrific abuse. Maybe it's reasonable. I certainly didn't have much money left after living in those days.
My point is before we all BBQ MS, all the facts are needed.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
+5 insightful. Just read the friggin' article:
'I know I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime then I am stuck with only 770 Chinese yuan (£72.77p) per month in basic wages,' the worker said.
'This is not nearly enough to support a family. My parents are farmers without jobs. They also do not have pensions.
'I also need to worry about getting married, which requires a lot of money. Therefore, I still push myself to continue working in spite of my exhaustion.
Regardless of the working conditions, these people are there because they have needs and desires the same as the rest of us. They work there because there is no other work available, or the work that is available is even worse. That's the state that the majority of the world is in, and it won't be changed by any number of idealistic fools opining about the immorality of large corporations.
Yes, it certainly IS different (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you have have sick days and vacation?
Health benefits for you and your family?
Regulations for workplace health and safety?
Did you have labour laws to protect you?
Were you allowed to sleep at home? Did you even read the article?
I don't know how old you are, but you have forgotten all the principles for which the citizens who lived before you fought and died. If you're young, you have MUCH to learn because your education has been a failure. If you are old, you have even given up thinking or given up compassion.
NEWSFLASH: People Take Naps During Breaks (Score:4, Insightful)
It may surprise many people who don't take naps, but there are in fact a lot of people who do - even in full view of others. /. - shocking to some, normal to others.
Not much different from eating lunch at your desk while checking
Move along.
Re:Not Unusual (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, I'm not fond of them either, but.... I was going to say they should stop at outright lies but this is journalism after all.
China is one big sweatshop (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Nice headline, what about Apple, etc? (Score:3, Insightful)
apple has been getting run through the alternative press lately for sweatshops, with nary a mention of the fact that practically every factory in china is a sweatshop. apple, microsoft, cisco, tonka, whoever, if you don't think the cheap plastic gewgaws you get for stupid cheap prices are being assembled with slave labor, think again.
Re:Nice headline, what about Apple, etc? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would it say "Apple" when no Apple sourced products come from the factory in question? Sure Foxconn buys from them and Apple (among many other companies) buys from Foxconn, but Apple has also been auditing all the factories that source their products after they discovered this type of thing going on a few years ago. Here is the list of companies [nlcnet.org] outsourcing from KYE and their contact info. By all means contact them and express your intent not to purchase their crap. Please do not, however, conflate them with one of the few companies that is actually taking the issue seriously (for a few years at least). It makes me quite angry that companies like Apple get bad press when they do the right thing (like all the bad press Apple got when they discovered abuses while auditing a supplier) as if there was no difference between that and a human rights organization discovering these things when the company ignored the abuse or did not bother to even check.
How about: "Photos of Chinese Sweatshop Used By US Tech Companies" I guess that just doesn't have the same bite? At least it's more accurate.
No it doesn't have the same bite. By calling out a specific company, more bad press is drawn to that company and it is more likely they will act to manage the PR disaster. An article that just says US companies in general are doing something does not leave a specific name in people's minds and makes customers less likely to act for change. The headline is completely accurate, just not as informative as you'd like. But then, you don't seem too interested in accuracy if you decided to smear Apple without even finding out if that was true, presumably because of some prejudice on your part.
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:5, Insightful)
In Ohio, the minimum wage is $7.30. This means that someone working 40 hours/week would earn roughly $14,600 a year. Our GDP per capita is about $48,000, so someone earning minimum wage is getting about 30% of the average. In china, GDP per capita is $3,266. Someone earning 50 cents/hour, working 40 hours a week, earns $1,000 US a year. Hey, look at that, right about 30%. So, these factory workers are basically earning the equivalent minimum wage in china (*if* scaling based on GDP is appropriate). This is to say nothing about actual cost of living, or the actual working conditions, but dollar for dollar if we expect someone in the US to work for $7.30 an hour when the average is much higher, we should have no problem expecting someone in China to work for $.50 an hour considering what everyone else makes.
Looking over all the comments I'm really surprised (Score:3, Insightful)
that the majority are from uncaring scumbags defending these working conditions. Not sure why, but I just expected differently from the slashdot crowd.
Re:Wrong RTFA - there is inhumane treatment of wor (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, the problem is that the FA is from the Daily Mail, which makes Fox look like respectable journalism.
Pissed about this! (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, because of the pesky labor unions in the US, I can see a mouse needing to cost $16 if made here because some high-school dropout is entitled and thinks he should get $25/hr for putting self-adhesive feet on mice. But if you saving money on labor, how about the customer saves money too?
Re:Not Unusual (Score:5, Insightful)
Does this lower the cost of living in the US? (Score:5, Insightful)
First is the cost of an xbox, or whatever, a major part of our overall expenses? I think I am fairly typical, and my biggest expenses - by far - have been: income tax, mortgage, health care, education, and retirement. Lowering the cost of computer mice, or toaster overs, does very little, if anything, to lower my overall cost of living.
Does lowering the cost of labor even lower our cost of goods? In the 1980s, when auto manufacturing was shifted from US workers making $15 to hour, to offshore workers making $0.35 an hour, did the cost of cars go down significantly?
Offshoring labor certainly causes inhumane worker conditions, and causes high unemployment in the west. But I don't see where offshoring labor is helping the average US citizen at all.
So why don't we stop buying goods that manufactured offshored? For one thing, we often have no choice, and we don't even know. For example, is an all-Americans Dell computer really made in the USA?
For another thing, I think it has to do with a lack of solidarity. If I personally stopped buying goods made offshore, it would not amount to anything. If several million people made an organized effort, that might get somebody's attention.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
but if I don't work overtime then I am stuck with only ... 'This is not nearly enough to support a family. My parents are farmers without jobs. They also do not have pensions.
'I also need to worry about getting married, which requires a lot of money. Therefore, I still push myself to continue working in spite of my exhaustion.
I've worked jobs that are much harder, just as repetitive, under comparable conditions, here in the U.S. I didn't have a choice about working overtime...if they needed me, I worked a 16 hour shift. Or I got fired. If I was dumb enough to lose a body part in the machinery, I'd have wound up fired. I didn't get a place to sleep (driving home was usually extremely dangerous, due to the exhaustion). They didn't feed me. I'd usually get 2 10 minute breaks in a 12 hour shift, but you never really knew.
(I know this is where I'm supposed to keep going with that, talking about trudging through snow, crawling through the muck, going barefoot, and how we all enjoyed it. That all happened, except for the barefoot, but most people probably won't really believe the basics).
With all that, there's no way I was making enough money to support a family. Much less save up for a marriage.
I'm sure there are "real" Chinese sweatshops that are absolute Hell-holes. This isn't even close. This is pretty close to the average life for a huge chunk of Americans.
Regardless of the working conditions, these people are there because they have needs and desires the same as the rest of us. They work there because there is no other work available, or the work that is available is even worse. That's the state that the majority of the world is in, and it won't be changed by any number of idealistic fools opining about the immorality of large corporations.
Exactly! These conditions really aren't all that bad. Much better than I'd actually expected. If enough people throw a big enough fit about this sort of thing, then the company just moves its operation, and these girls go back to...what? Prostitution? Starving to death? Selling body parts? Whatever it is, it's almost guaranteed to be worse.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, maybe if the idealistic fools are on the board of large corporations, that would change
Ah, more idealism :)
If these idealistic fools were on the boards of large corporations, those corporations would shortly find their profit margins disappearing, their stock plummeting, and their shareholders knocking on the door brandishing torches and pitchforks. Idealism can't compete with economics.
With that said, there ARE ways to improve living conditions, over time. We know what they are. We've known it for quite a while. The basics are relatively simple:
1. Provide a stable government which supports individual liberty and encourages entrepreneurship.
2. Provide good-quality basic education to everyone, and make it mandatory for children.
3. Create a reliable system of communication and uncensored information exchange, as well as some form of transportation that is available and affordable for the majority of the population.
4. Last, but certainly not least, make women the legal and social equals of men, with the same rights, benefits, and access to education and communication.
That's pretty much it. Unfortunately, those are not things which we can force on people, and they're certainly not something that corporations can provide. However, it's much easier to just blame those evil "fat-cats" than to actually look at the massive undertaking which would be required in order to achieve global prosperity.
Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
Quick! Someone tell the Communist Chinese government about this, I mean doesn't the whole idea of communism exist to "PROTECT THE WORKER" from crap like this in the first place, I'll bet Mao himself is spinning in his grave over this one.....
Re:Looking over all the comments I'm really surpri (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe because the media likes to lie and spin these things to seem worse than they are? Maybe because using loaded language, such as referring to this job as a "prison", even though the workers *choose* to work there, is ugly and underhanded? Maybe because, without context, this kind of outrage is largely meaningless? Maybe because the article notably *doesn't* mention: cost of living, wage relative to other jobs in the area, surveys of worker satisfaction, etc?
I could go on, but I think I've made my point. I mean, christ, this is the Daily Mail we're talking about here, a tabloid of the worst sort. You'll forgive me if I take any reports they make with an *extremely* large grain of salt.
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wrong RTFA - there is inhumane treatment of wor (Score:3, Insightful)
And if she quits, she can find something else to do, or you will support her as necessary. There's a fairly large difference between the UK and China. In China, these people would have absolutely nothing instead of just a tiny bit more than nothing.
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, it isn't an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. In the no true Scottsman fallacy, the man in question really is a Scotsman. He isn't American or English. A country must actually practice some form of communism to be communist.. Was the USSR really a Republic? Was the DDR? Can we indict the Republic as a form of government because so many so-called Republics were actually repressive totalitarian states?
If you want to make the argument that many states that attempt communism fail to achieve it, I can agree with you. But that is because power hungry elitists fear real communism more than anything else. The power elite care about one freedom: the freedom to oppress others, the freedom to touch your life without being touched in return. Communism in its true form will prevent the sociopathic power elite from dominating others, and so they fight it, and/or infiltrate it and take over from the inside.
Re:Chinese Underwear Gnomes (Score:3, Insightful)
That's hardly original. Why do you think you felt the need to point out that argument which has been used a few hundred million times. What motivated you?
Because any oft-repeated mantra is usually a thought-program designed to control a population; designed to groove a population into one set of ideas.
What that old argument describes isn't Communism. It describes a dictatorship run by a psychopath which took control of a budding system which was never allowed to flourish. Hardly ideal. It's basically a non-argument designed to keep people divided and conquered. What is more curious, however, is that you probably know that already.
I think well-educated community co-operatives without usury and which are disconnected from dictatorial federal oversight are a better plan. And when I say "well-educated", I don't mean propagandized. In particular, people need to be taught how to teach themselves, how to learn without bias and how to accept pure knowledge without knee-jerking. Only in this way can truly sensible systems be implemented without blind spots. Any system of thought which evolves around knee-jerks is going to have weak areas because people who refuse to think about certain ideas and simply pretend they don't exist are going to fall prey to them. In particular, the nature of the sociopathic individual needs to be understood.
I think the way to solve many of the world's problems is simply to weed out all the psychopaths, or to at least recognize their existence and learn how to route around their inherent damage effectively. Until that happens, no system has a chance of flourishing in a manner which leads to the overall health and happiness of a populace.
-FL
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmm, that's not true, the Apple thing was uncovered by the press well over a year ago, with initial reports on Apple's suppliers using poor labour practices as far back as 2006. See this article for example:
In 2006 there were two separate instances of human rights violations at Apple suppliers. One turned out to be pretty much genuine and one was just too much overtime work. In response to this, Apple began a process of more strictly auditing their suppliers.
It's only this year that they finally owned up to child labour abuses by factories used to develop their products, and they stated the children involved were 15 years old.
Apple didn't "own up to" those abuses, they were discovered by one of Apple's now routine audits. The company had been falsifying the records sent to Apple, but because of the 2006 incidents, Apple now routinely sends representatives to double check. No one made any allegation about that factory or the other two Apple found to be in noncompliance, until Apple themselves discovered the problems.
In contrast, the "children" in the Microsoft case were apparently 17 years old, but seeing as you can work full time at 16 in places like the UK I struggle to see that as child labour.
In the UK children are limited in the hours they can put in. These people were working more than even the law in China allows.
I'd argue that Apple case was in fact worse, simply because they knew about bad working practices for longer, and because the children in their child labour case, really were children.
No, Apple found out about specific plants and acted to fix the problem. MS has been one of the top 5 US tech companies listed as promoting human rights violations in China for the last 8 years. In fact, a report came out earlier this year urging people not to buy from them because of the repeated abuses.
That's not to absolve the others of blame, but the GP was right, Apple is at least as bad...
Apple has taken action. They are regularly auditing plants. They absolved contracts and financially punished other plants. That is exactly what we want them to be doing. Microsoft on the other hand, does nothing. When was the last time you heard about an MS audit of their manufacturing partners and them requiring changes? MS relies on public outrage not being strong enough so they ignore the problem.
I'd argue the only real solution is for these companies home governments to start penalising companies over it.
Or, magical unicorns could solve the problem. Get real. We're talking about what we as consumers and voters can actually do, and that includes not buying anything from companies that don't work diligently to stop abuses within their foreign supply chains. You're just being lazy and trying to pass the buck.
Let's face it though- this is why outsourcing is such a big fad amongst large companies nowadays, because it's just a legalised method of gaining access to sweatshop manufacturing, something that is often banned in their home countries because it tends to breach inconvniences like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
It doesn't have to be sweatshops. For only a small increase you can gain access to reasonably paid labor in markets where cost of living is much, much less. Companies will do that if we as consumers make them by refusing to put up with this freedom hating, human exploitation. You attempt to equivocate and lay the blame elsewhere but you have the power to buy from companies that are doing something and who are investigating and stopping human rights abuses. Do you care enough about human suffering to do it?
Re:so then ... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a tough one. I guess I'd have to say that the tone is intentionally sarcastic, but the general message is quite serious.
Tell ya what, I'll just rephrase it so it's easier for you to understand:
Your point was stupid, and your wording dishonest. People who consent to work for a wage are by definition not slaves. All human endeavors require trade-offs, and it's up to the individual to decide whether a particular trade is worthwhile. Likewise, human welfare is relative - work conditions which might seem barbaric to, say, Paris Hilton, would seem quite normal to you and me. Any employment which is voluntary and provides a higher standard of living than would exist in the ABSENCE of such employment is, therefore, a Good Thing.
Hope that helps!
Re:Not Unusual (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, why blame Microsoft? The root cause of these working conditions falls squarely on the Chinese government and Chinese culture.
They profit by hiring these companies to force workers into inhumane situations. They certainly share much of the blame for not requiring their suppliers uphold basic human rights and for lying by telling us in their corporate policies that such is the case. MS has the power to stop this. As customers of MS you have the power to stop this. As voters in the country where MS is based you have the power to stop this. The question is, do you care or are you an apathetic lazy american who won't take action that inconveniences you to help their fellow man?
Re:It's the repost! (Score:2, Insightful)
It’s funny how you conveniently failed to mention that this practice wasn’t ONLY conducted by Microsoft, and that HP, Dell, Asus, and many other hardware manufacturers outsource to the same company, and that out of all those companies, only Microsoft is taking action to investigate the reports.
Pictures. I agree it's a problem that extends to nearly every U.S. company that relies on Chinese manufacturing, but MS is the one that's forced to try and save face because the pictures allowed people to actually see the conditions. It's kind of like how there wasn't much outrage over the Korean war, but with Vietnam the media showed people what war really looked like. Apparently it's not enough for people to read about or be aware of inhumanity, it has to be shown before they even pretend to give a damn.
Re:It's the repost! (Score:3, Insightful)
It’s funny how you conveniently failed to mention that this practice wasn’t ONLY conducted by Microsoft, and that HP, Dell, Asus, and many other hardware manufacturers outsource to the same company, and that out of all those companies, only Microsoft is taking action to investigate the reports.
That's not funny at all, it's the intention of this human rights campaign. The NLC targeted MS specifically because they were the worst offender and because this particular plant is making products for them, not for the other companies you mention. The NLC report lambasted all those companies and more for doing business with these plants, but needed a single company with a recognizable name in order to pressure any one company to actually take action. They are pressuring MS and MS has said they will look into it, but so far has not done anything about the conditions. Hopefully the average american's attention span won't expire before something positive is done.
Re:There's a problem with that (Score:3, Insightful)
Absolutely correct! They are MUCH more likely to work against human rights so they can get cheap labor closer to home. If they could get away with it they would breed Epsilons just like Brave new World.
For the Betas and Gammas, Prozac is the new Soma.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, I see, you were talking about fools in general, weren't you? Why tack on 'idealistic' then? Why not just say 'fools' and be done with it. You are being disingenuous and you know it: you tried to tar all idealists with the 'fools' label, but now you don't want to admit it.
One of the perks of being powerful is you don't have to go to psychiatric counseling and you don't get labeled a sociopath even if you are one. But here is a good citation: http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html [hare.org], it talks about how the characteristics of psychopaths or sociopaths, like lack of empathy or remorse, make them very good at climbing the corporate or political ladder.
No bosses, but facilitators and managers. Teachers, okay, but we're talking about children again. Judges, sure, they need power over others. Leaders, religious or otherwise, do not need power over others. If they are real leaders, people will follow out of self interest. Celebrities don't have power over others.
No, obviously people shouldn't get anything they want. But everyone should get the bare minimum: food, shelter, clean water, and access to medical care. If you want more than that, you work for it. And people will, because once people's basic physiological needs are met, social acceptance and respect become highly motivating factors.
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Insightful)
He can not help more people by expanding because if the business grew too large, he would not be able to take a personal hand in helping his employees. He's grown it as large as he can while still maintaining the direction he desires for the company.
Unfortunately, 'violent coercion' also means, "work how I tell you to, for the price I offer you, or starve to death." Do people really leave when the boss is an asshole? If they can, they do, but most can't. And therein lies the coercion. The government is there with guns to protect the rights of property owners, over the rights of the non-owning class. Your libertarian utopia has never existed, and can never exist, because it encourages and rewards the most selfish, least empathic, and least remorseful among us.
Now who fits that bill? Who is selfish, has no empathy, and no remorse? A sociopath. A purely libertarian society gives the poor and powerless no collective voice. It's every man for himself. And in such a society, there is no check or balance to personal, individual power. It is a society designed for sociopathic exploitation of the weak.
If people can use government to gain power over others, they can use any other power structure, such as a corporation, to do the same. Only, with a corporation, citizens do not have a vote. At least with government, people can decide collectively what will benefit them.