Photos of Chinese Sweatshop Used By Microsoft 539
MongooseCN has a follow-up to last week's Chinese Sweatshop story. He says "The image Microsoft doesn't want you to see: Too tired to stay awake. These Chinese workers earn just 34p an hour (about 52 cents in US dollars), work 15-hour shifts, and deal with other abuses to package US-made products."
I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:5, Informative)
In China, it is common in many places to take a 30-45 minute nap after lunch, just sitting at your desk/workspace. While I cannot say that this is the case in this picture, it may not be as sinister as you would think at first glance. If there are 6 or 8 people sleeping and there isn't a manager with a cattle prod or whip in the background waking them up so they can get back to working, the conditions might not be *that* bad.
how odd, saw these photos weeks ago (Score:1, Informative)
why are we pointing fingers at Microsoft?
"KYE factory in China, which manufactures computer mice and webcams for Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Samsung, Best Buy, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, ASUS and other US companies." doesn't Foxconn make shit for Apple?
i think all companies involved should fork over some huge payout between the workers involved
Re:It's the repost! (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. Nothing new here from previous post, except you get a bit of 'Daily Mail' sensationalism. /. to the Daily Mail...
Appropriate, since people are now (unfavourably) comparing
http://crashedpips.com/2010/03/slashdot-the-daily-mail-of-the-tech-world/ [crashedpips.com]
Better to read the NLC's original report, (which is actually even more damming, since it contains more detail):
http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034 [nlcnet.org] - April 13
In the interests of balance:
http://blogs.technet.com/microsoft_blog/archive/2010/04/15/working-to-ensure-the-fair-treatment-of-workers-in-our-manufacturing-and-supply-chain.aspx [technet.com]
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:5, Informative)
When I was programming, 16+ hour days were common.. as was sleeping at a desk.
Hey, I was there too, long hours, a cot in the server room, impossible deadlines. Of course I also was getting shares of the company and I could easily have quit and had a normal job and I was not required to live in company housing, was supplied with free booze and other perks, and got to choose my own hours. This is something quite different and more akin to slave labor.
I'm also quite certain Apple et. al are no better.
Actually, there was a story about lesser abuses at one of Apple's suppliers earlier this year. The difference being, the abuses were discovered by Apple, while Apple was auditing the companies they do business with to make sure they don't pull this kind of crap. That company lost out financially because of breach of contract and is being regularly audited for compliance. (We'll see how well Apple follows through in a few years.)
This abuse was discovered by the press because as near as I can tell, while Microsoft claims to audit suppliers before doing business with them, they've never actually discovered any cases of abuse or fired or censured a supplier. So, while Apple is not perfect and MS may well be average, the evidence to date does indicate that Apple is better about this.
86f? Seriously? (Score:3, Informative)
Do I make more money than them? Yes. Do I have more freedom than they likely do? Yes. Is my job less menial? Likely. But 86f? Please.
Wrong RTFA - there is inhumane treatment of worker (Score:2, Informative)
No, it's not just a matter of napping after work. It is seriously inhumane treatment.
The mostly female workers, aged 18 to 25, work from 7.45am to 10.55pm, sometimes with 1,000 workers crammed into one 105ft by 105ft room.
They are not allowed to talk or listen to music, are forced to eat substandard meals from the factory cafeterias, have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
The workers also sleep on site, in factory dormitories, with 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28in-wide plywood boards. They 'shower' with a sponge and a bucket.
And many of the workers, because they are young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC claimed.
The organisation said that one worker was even fined for losing his finger while operating a hole punch press.
Re:Not Unusual (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Say what? (Score:2, Informative)
I didnt read your post, but found it very fascinating!
Re:It's the repost! (Score:5, Informative)
It’s funny how you conveniently failed to mention that this practice wasn’t ONLY conducted by Microsoft, and that HP, Dell, Asus, and many other hardware manufacturers outsource to the same company, and that out of all those companies, only Microsoft is taking action to investigate the reports.
Re:I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:5, Informative)
They are not allowed to talk or listen to music, are forced to eat substandard meals from the factory cafeterias, have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
I've been to the KYE factory (not for MS, for other clients) and while that is the official rule, you'll see every 3rd or 4th worker with a headset plugged into their phone, blasting out the latest Chinese pop tunes. There are rules, and there are "rules"; you do know that in China the car is supposed to yield for the pedestrian? Well, follow that rule and you'll die.
As far as meals, yeah, they suck. It's Chinese food cafeteria style. The cafeterias at Sundstrand when I worked there (18 years ago) sucked too with poor versions of mass-produced food. Guess what: cafeteria style food usually sucks. This isn't your modern Microsoft of Apple dining experience with independent restaurants bidding and competing to sell $9 lunches.
Bathroom breaks? Saw plenty go to the bathroom at KYE, Vtech, Compal, and other big places. Of course, you had to arrange for someone to cover your spot for 3-5 minutes, because that production line keeps going. They don't stop a 200 person line so one can take a leak. Typically they space breaks out so that your fellow workers can pick up the pace for a short burst to cover for you. And you do likewise.
The workers also sleep on site, in factory dormitories, with 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28in-wide plywood boards. They 'shower' with a sponge and a bucket.
Dormitories are common in Southern China, especially in Dongguan and Shenzhen. Not so much in Ningbo, or Hangzhou, Suzhou, or other places. You know why? Because a cheap 1 bedroom apartment starts at 500 RMB a month; when you're making 800 RMB a month you can't live off-site. So you live in a dorm with a dozen others.
As far as beds, ever travel in China? Ever stay at a non-Crown Plaza/Sofitel/Hilton hotel, but a 4 or 5 star Chinese hotel? Great amenities, as good as the best in the US, but the beds - like freaking rocks with half a dozen sheets over them for padding. That's how beds are in China, literally a box spring or solid wood platform. It's what people have IN THEIR HOMES, even those that can afford a soft, Western mattress. There's a belief that a really firm bed will keep your spine straight and tall.
As far as sponge baths, welcome to Asia. You'll find that throughout Asia, not just in dorms, but even in mid and upper end homes. For example, I have a rather wealthy friend in Thailand, who lives outside of Chaiyaphum. Yes, she lived in the US for a decade, recently moved back home. Big beautiful new house, modern plumbing, AC, Internet, satellite TV, great place. And a big BUCKET with water, a smaller pan of water, and a washcloth for bathing. Nice modern toilet with a built-in bidet but a SPONGE BATH. When asked why, the answer is 'that is how we do it'.
And many of the workers, because they are young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC claimed.
Yes, that does happen, and it's terrible. Many places in Asia still consider women as second-class; assholes love that kind of place. Happens all over, in fact...
The organisation said that one worker was even fined for losing his finger while operating a hole punch press.
Ummm... Yeah. Anything more than innuendo on that one? I've been in forging facilities with open pits for steel coils, wide-open 400 ton flywheel presses, etc. Nowhere near OSHA compliant (not unlike manufacturing facilities in the US and EU about 60-70 years ago). I've even seen an accident or two. Workers are shuffled off and cared for, and another is brought in to keep the machine running. One time the operator really screwed up and because of his bone-headed move (trying to
What a shitty article (Score:4, Informative)
Take two paragraphs from it:
For as little as 34p an hour, the men and women work six or seven days a week, making computer mice and web cams for the American multinational computer company.
It was the militaristic management and sleep deprivation that affected the worker most. 'I know I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime then I am stuck with only 770 Chinese yuan (£72.77p) per month in basic wages,' the worker said.
If the basic wage is £72.77 a month and they earn £0.34 an hour that gives a working week of just under 50 hours which doesn't seem like slavery to me. It also puts them at a comparable income to a chambermaid or baker, which makes sense since it's working the line at a factory.
If they are working 15 hours a day, 6 days a week at £0.34 that's £132.60 per month. That puts them at a comparable income to an accountant, which is insane amounts of money for working the line at a factory.
Chinese incomes taken from: http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml [worldsalaries.org] (and using the "770 Chinese yuan=£72.77p" conversion rate from the paragraph quoted above).
Re:There's a problem with that (Score:4, Informative)
No corporation will champion human rights. Corporations only care about profits and market share. The only actual humans they give a damn about are their stockholders.
Re:Is it really that different than programming? (Score:5, Informative)
I worked as a teacher in China a couple years ago and was only paid $350 US a month, plus housing, and still managed to save money. So, that is not exactly slave labor wages by Chinese economy standards at $0.50 x 15 hours a day = $7.5 a day. That is something like $180 US a month. The working hours suck by western standards, but that is fairly normal working hours in China.
Also I don't buy that photo. When I was teaching at the University, I would go in to a room and there would be like 50 students all sleeping between classes. It is not unusual for Chinese workers to catch a catnap on breaks, because they work long hours.
Re:For all the bleeding hearts (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Who cares? (Score:3, Informative)
You worked for EA right?
But We're Not Paid GDP Per Capita (Score:3, Informative)
Your analysis rests on GDP per capita, as if that's how much workers mak, but it's not [wikipedia.org]. GDP per capita might be $48,000 in the US, but it's not shared evenly by everyone. The median personal income [wikipedia.org] is only about $32,100. Chinese median personal income is hard to find cited [google.com], but in 2003 urban median household income was about $900 [usda.gov]. In 2007, the US median household income was about $50,000 [census.gov]. The American median is about 56x the Chinese urban median (rural China's large and poor population would make the difference even bigger, but they're not competing with Americans for factory jobs).
The GDP per capita is an average that includes all the money made by the few richest. All the profits on labor taken by corporations and investors. In America that disparity [undp.org] is pretty large, but in China it's larger.
Re:Yes, it certainly IS different (Score:3, Informative)
Have you ever had deadlines for YESTERDAY?
Have you ever had those labor laws violated, but the violations were implied so that if you did want to do something you'd have to pay a lawyer $200,000 just to get the case started?
Have you ever worked 16 hour days for 6 months straight only to be canned and have to move to San Francisco for another job only to rinse and repeat and end up back in So. Cal?
Have you ever been in a situation where if you took one of those sick days or vacation days, you'd get canned?
I have an idea that you're well beyond college age, but you need to realize that you likely haven't had the same experiences as the person you responded to so you shouldn't judge.
Re:Wrong RTFA - there is inhumane treatment of wor (Score:5, Informative)
You miss the point - my wife works for a government run and mandated system that is little more than a sweat shop itself. But people turn a blind eye because its what is required to become a doctor in the UK.
I also didn't tell you about the contracts - if you apply to become a Training GP in the UK, you can no longer apply for any other NHS position until your application for GP is rejected. If you are accepted as a GP, you have to accept the position within 48 hours of being offered it - except its not a job offer, its an offer of a training position which can start either in August or February, be at one of a dozen hospitals in the area and one of several dozen practices in the area, and pay scales can vary significantly. You don't know any of these things but you are forced to make a decision.
Before you get to the offer, you have to get to the interview - the interviews for GP are held on the same day nationally, but no hospitals budget for their lowest grade doctors going to the interview, so you have to fight to take the day off. My wife was initially told 'no', and it wasn't until the tuesday before that she beat a concession out of them - they would allow her to have one shift off.
The problem is, she was on nights for that period - they were going to allow her to take one shift off, but she had to work the other one. So she could either take the night before off, or the night after off - taking the night after off means she couldn't attend the interview at all (her night shifts finish at 8.30am, the interview started at 9am and was a 2 hour drive away). But taking the night before off meant that she would have zero rest time before her night shift - and remember, its up to her to maintain patient safety, its her license and her job.
Yes she could quit, but then we have $100,000 of tuition debt to clear...
Re:Wrong RTFA - there is inhumane treatment of wor (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Do the Chinese actually like their system? (Score:4, Informative)
Yes, they do. They think we are lazy and our way is wrong. They believe our media distorts the truth and unfairly critisizes them. They believe people in those crap jobs deserve it because they aren't smart or were too lazy in school. They think they are more free and we pay wayyy to much for stuff. They want us to buy more stuff for more money.
We aren't exactly a lot different. We believe their media distorts the truth. We think they are ideologically mistaken. We "know" we are free and they make wayyyy to little money. We want them to stop working for nothing and stealing our jobs, but still sell us stuff dirt cheap.
Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Informative)
Communism in its true form will prevent the sociopathic power elite from dominating others, and so they fight it, and/or infiltrate it and take over from the inside.
[Citation Needed]
Seriously though, you know there are a lot of people who have believed this, and sought to form their own independent - if small - utopian societies. Generally they form groups of 50 or less and go off into the wilderness where they can live their ideals in peace.
They never work. They tend to stick around a while, but that is only because new people come in as people who have been there a while leave. You usually find the original founders of these societies living in a downtown apartment some thirty years after they founded the society, working for megacorp X for a living.
Want to know why? Because at some point, two people will disagree on what is best for the community. That's fine and dandy, and by itself won't cause much of a problem, but there are points in every community's history where a decision one way or another must be made. If two people disagree on what is best, they both will attempt to sway the others that their way is right. If there hadn't been opposing groups before, they form almost immediately. The society is now divided and the communistic structure is well on its way to crumbling.
The reason the USSR was a heavy-handed communist government run by power hungry elitists is because that is the only way communism can ever be applied to an entire nation. As soon as you allow one person to say "No, I don't want to" the whole system begins to crumble.
Communist governments are always run by dictators because that is the only way they will ever work. Your idea of "pure" communism can never form until the entire nation is of like mind. I don't think any nation - no matter how large or small - has ever been of like mind on anything. The idea of Communism is that everyone should be equal. However, the only way to make it work is to force those who disagree to follow along. Therefore there must be a ruling class, and their primary purpose is to oppress the non-conformists. The very formation of a true Communist government will always fail for this reason, there is no way around it. Freedom cannot be allowed, or people would chose not to be Communist.
The reason we choose Capitalism over Feudalism or Communism is because Capitalism provides the most potential for freedom. In a capitalist society, there is definitely a top and a bottom, but the beauty of it is anybody can rise to the top. You have but to look at one of the richest men in the world: Bill Gates. He was nothing but a nerdy college kid messing with computers in his garage when he struck it rich, and now he is at the apex. Star athletes, movie stars and music stars often come from poor families but get wealthy off of their own talents and abilities. Yeah someone who starts out with a lot of money has it easier, but even if you don't you can move up. Communism, however, works out a lot like Feudalism - if you are born poor there is no opportunity to rise to a higher station. There is no higher station, because theoretically everyone is equal. Sure, that government official may actually get three square meals a day, and served by his private chef in his large house, but he doesn't actually own anything, he's just as poor as everybody else *wink wink*.
Oh and the USSR was just as much a republic as the Greek and Roman republics from which we derive our system. All that is necessary for a republic is that you have individuals designated to represent different groups of people, and that every person is represented by at least one representative.
Being a republic has nothing to do with whether the people get to vote on their representatives, and though the republic uses democratic processes, it does not preclude a monarchy or dictator. Look at the American republic - if the President were not chosen by the people, but instead chosen by birth, and if the senators and congressmen were chosen by their station (aka nobility), we would have the Roman republic. As long as people are designated to represent the average citizen in the government, you have a republic. The USSR had this.
Re:I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:3, Informative)
you're required to live in the dorms and you have specific hours you're allowed to leave the dorms, even when not working. That's not exactly the typical boarding house and it is completely unacceptable. Remember "freedom" is an incredibly important concept for most of these company's customers.
Bzzzt. You can live "off campus" no problem, if you want to. Check out all the apartments above the shops that ring the factories. They're the "line leaders" and senior assemblers, typically renting those places, 2-3 to an apartment.
And in most factories in the Nanjing-to-Ningbo stretch of factories (and in Xiamen, and Shantou), dorms are the exception NOT the rule; perhaps 20% of the workers live in the dorms with most living off-site.
Shenzhen and Dongguan are notably different predominantly because of the much higher land costs, much higher density of factories and workers, and much higher percentage of low-end manufacturing (low-tech, with more minimum wage workers).
Yes, but not all places only hire women and children for the normal worker positions and in the states you have the ability to successfully take an employer to court and worker's rights organizations to investigate on your behalf.
You find a LOT of males at the factories, but rarely on the production lines. They're shuffling boxes - feeding and emptying the production lines. Strength is used to perform those tasks.
And in general China is a much more misogynist society; heck, you see on TV the annual China Airlines stewardess (yes, they are still called stewardesses, not flight attendants) competitions complete with talent and swimsuit competitions!
This isn't an apology, this is a calibration; a response to take a clearly politically-motivated hit-piece and add some context from a person who's on-site half the time for several years.
Do they live in dorms? Some do, but the conditions aren't terrible by low-end Chinese standards, and considerably better than the farmhouse the worker most likely moved from.
Does the food suck? Yes it does, but it is edible (and yes, when I work at a factory I tend to eat with the line workers to build rapport and get what I need done faster - a concept lost on Chinese AND US AND EU managers; they never miss an opportunity for a nice comfortable lunch and to simply hand down demands rather than actually go to the line, work with the workers, and solve the bloody problems).
Do some women get sexually harassed? Sure. Heck, here in the US we have Presidents committing perjury about their sexual assaults! NO society is free of sexual harassment, China is no exception, and it is considerably BETTER than what you see in Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia, and India.
Bottom line: this "article" is a hit piece for political purposes, it does nothing to improve conditions, and in fact hurts worldwide relations by fomenting undeserved anger.
Re:It's the repost! (Score:2, Informative)
The reality is M$ is more of public target because of the premium they charge for their product.
Exactly, I mean you pay $23 for a Microsoft Bluetooth Mouse [google.com] but only $40 for an Apple Bluetooth mouse [google.com]! Those terrible people overcharging for their product...
Re:I don't want to say it's not serious (Score:3, Informative)
regarding the finger incident:
"A worker from Shanxi Province had his index finger chopped off while operating a hole punch press machine while working on an internet camera. Management did rush him to the hospital for emergency treatment. However, after an investigation, management determined that the worker had disobeyed regulations related to operating the punch press machine, so the worker was fined 200 RMB ($29.26) and fired! The foreman and section chief in that department were also fined. Management then rehired the injured worker as a security guard." (http://www.nlcnet.org/reports?id=0034 [nlcnet.org])
That's almost better than the treatment I received the two times I was injured here in the States. If you get injured here, the companies want you out the door and off their books as fast as they can.