Comcast Says FCC Powerless to Stop P2P Blocking

Nanoboy writes "Even if the FCC finds that Comcast has violated its Internet Policy Statement, it's utterly powerless to do anything about it, according to a recent filing by the cable giant. Comcast argues that Congress has not given the FCC the authority to act, that the Internet Policy Statement doesn't give it the right to deal with the issue, and that any FCC action would violate the Administrative Procedures Act of 1946. '"The congressional policy and agency practice of relying on the marketplace instead of regulation to maximize consumer welfare has been proven by experience (including the Comcast customer experience) to be enormously successful," concludes Comcast VP David L. Cohen's thinly-veiled warning to the FCC, filed on March 11. "Bearing these facts in mind should obviate the need for the Commission to test its legal authority."'"

Comcast

[Ancient123]

Damn corporations always find a lookhole to continue exploiting their customers.... (fp?)

yea right

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all, Comcast doesn't decide how to interpret the laws. Judges do.

Second of all, the FCC has been using powers that they weren't directly given (given through court cases that interpreted the laws as giving them such authority) for years, what makes Comcast think this will change for them?

Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[nweaver]

Now, I sympathize with Comcast. Many ISPs, not just Comcast, are disrupting P2P sessions, and these sessions are in clear violation of most ISP's Terms of Service. And P2P is horribly disruptive, a single user can easily transmit 20 GB of data in a day.

Yet Comcast seems intent on making people WANT to regulate them. Its like they are deliberately behaving stupid?

They aren't agressive at pointing out all the other ISPs, to get the heat off.

They do stupid things like pack FCC hearing, say that the results won't matter, etc.

Who's running that place?

Re:yea right

[rootofevil]

if comcast can convince the FCC not to bring it before a judge, they most certainly get to interpret the law however they would like.

A cable company in favor of 'the market'?

[mgkimsal2]

Isn't this the same Comcast which runs cable service in markets which usually has a local government-granted monopoly for cable service in those regions? Funny that now they want to say "let the market decide" when cable companies generally won't invest in the infrastructure unless granted a monopoly on providing cable service. I'm remembering back a long time - perhaps this isn't the case any more. If broadband options were available everywhere, I'd certainly say "let the market decide" - many people (myself included) only have one option for broadband, and it's often cable.

In other news...

[sweatyboatman]

...Car thieves have declared the police have no legal authority to prevent them from stealing cars.

Good luck with that.

I don't really understand what Comcast hopes to get out of such an "above the law" argument. It's just bound to piss off the FCC regulators even more and make them more committed to enforcing whatever decision they make against Comcast. Just to show all the other cable companies and telcos that they aren't to be messed with.

What bullshit

[Coopjust]

I honestly can't believe the amount of crap coming from Comcast.

The congressional policy and agency practice of relying on the marketplace instead of regulation to maximize consumer welfare has been proven by experience (including the Comcast customer experience) to be enormously successful,"

Yeah, right. Which is why US broadband penetration continues to rank lower and lower worldwide despite $200 Billion from the government. And people are protesting traffic filtering. And your company is so afraid of actual people sitting at an FCC public hearing that they pay people to hold seats for employees, busing the employees in, and locking the public out from the meeting.

What Comcast is doing with the sandvine filtering is forging packets. That's fraud.

Re:Amazing.

[moderatorrater]

the US internet will look like Communist China's

Except for the cable company not being the government, and therefore divorced from a lot of the other power bases. Oh, and that the blocking likely won't get too far because there's another choice. And that Comcast won't be investigating people and then making them "disappear" because they're dissidents.

Other than that, yeah, the internet will be just like China's. I'm glad someone's finally had the balls to stand up and make an erroneous, inflammatory and completely unique critique of the state of freedom in the US.

Competition

[DoofusOfDeath]

"The congressional policy and agency practice of relying on the marketplace instead of regulation to maximize consumer welfare has been proven by experience (including the Comcast customer experience) to be enormously successful,"

Comcast's "marketplace" justification doesn't work. Their implication is that having a market means you have competition. But Comcast has a licensed monopoly on the cable network, and some telephone company has a monopoly on the telephone network. That's a market with, at the very most, one competitor.

Re:Comcast

[AmaDaden]

Correct me if I'm wrong but could this work? 1)Start new ISP that does not filter 2)Get help from the FCC because they are a bit pissed at Comcast for their "nah nah nah You cant get us!" crap 3)When Comcast tries to buy you out/stomp you in to oblivion use antitrust laws to stay alive. 4)Grow to a reasonable size because you have some idea of how the internet works and will not be a dick to your customers. 5)???? 6)profit

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[bitbiter]

They aren't stupid. This is the Standard MO of most US companies. Screw the customer, till you get caught and then say opps and pay a little fine.

Don't you know by now that most companies in the US sit down and think this out. "Lets see, we can make this much money (A) while screwing the customer. It will take this long (B) to get caught. We will make this much (C = (A X B)). When we get caught it will cost us this much (D) in legal fees and fines. So if C > D then it's what they do."

This is not going to change anytime soon. When the punishments never add up even close to what they make.
Welcome to the Corporate United States Of America.

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[asterix404]

Comcast doesn't put an upload/download limit in their terms of service, you are paying for a service. What happens if you want to download 5 linux distros to try them out? They already cap bandwidth so that you don't ever get the 4mbps that you are "promised" I get 750KB/s download and 125KB/s upload, called them up and asked why and basically got the runaround with an answer eventually saying on because we can. The the FCC can't get them then the better business bureau may be able to for breaking a contract and/or not putting the basics of a contract (ie the fact that your packets may be dropped for network maintenance). I mean, if I had comcast, and read that, I would have told them to shove their contract up their ass and go to someone who wouldn't do that. They are targeting specific users, who use more of the service then others, which is EXACTLY the point of paying a monthly bill. It's exactly like paying 20$ a month for unlimited phone service, some people talk 6000 minutes, others talk 10, they both pay the same. Comcast doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Re:I Agree With Comcast

[Bryansix]

Now if only FiOS was available in my area.

Re:"nyah-nyah :P"?

[MozeeToby]

Let's see, according to the law, corporations are people, right? Do you think we could have comcast declared mentally incompetent?

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[electrictroy]

What the hell are you talking about??? There's nothing disruptive or illegal about P2P software. How do you think Linux distributions get sent? Just last week, I downloaded the latest version of Firefox using P2P. (And the month before, Spybot, because the virus that had infected my system was blocking all browser downloads. P2P was the only way to get Spybot and fix the problem.)

Don't sit there and make false accusations that P2P Software does not have any legitimate use or is "disruptive".

P2P is a tool, just like any other tool (gopher, ftp, usenet, et cetera), ands Comcast has no fucking right to block its usage by its customers.

Enforced monopoly should answer to a reg. body

[bishiraver]

They gave up their rights to rely on the marketplace when they signed on to government-endorsed monopoly status.

I would have absolutely NO qualms about allowing the marketplace to sort this out - unfortunately, the marketplace is artificially sparse.

If a power company with government-mandated monopoly was blocking power to your electric oven because it sucked down too much juice and you ran it all the time, the government would get involved.

If an internet company with government-mandated monopoly blocks bits to a piece of software because it uses too much bandwidth, the regluatory body (FCC) should get involved.

That's how it should work. If you want the government to keep you in power, you gotta make sure your services don't fuck people over. If you don't like it, have fun competing and - well - making consumers happy by striving to have the best and least expensive service. Common fucking sense. Unfortunately there's nothing common about it..

(For those of you who don't think this is an enforced monopoly - Right now I only have one choice for broadband - optimum. Time warner services buildings two blocks from me, but I'm in a different district in brooklyn and TW is legally restricted from servicing the area -- because it's optimum's area.)

Comcast is in Big Trouble

[HermMunster]

Comcast may think they have the right to do what they are doing but this is all bad publicity. That though is the normalized side of things. They'll loose lots of business.

What Comcast may not be understanding is that shitting on the FCC now means the FCC will shit on them later. Guaranteed. Comcast is burning bridges.

They need to disassociate their activities completely with any blocking and open the network and become neutral. What the FCC will probably do is give everyone the right to sue Comcast over what the consumer does on line. Essentially they are removing their own neutrality.

Comcast is far to simplistic in their thinking and dangerous in their actions.

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[Dutch Gun]

This is the Standard MO of most US companies.

No, this is the standard MO of companies (or any entity) which grows to monopoly-size. Competition brings out the best in companies, because one can simply switch to a competitor if the service gets too bad. The capitalist approach typically falters when:

a) The government sticks its nose in and creates or sanctions a monopoly
b) The government doesn't stick its nose in to break up an illegal monopoly
c) It's the government itself that's providing the service.
d) The company gets too big to care about customers anymore, and implode under the weight of their own bureaucracy.

From companies that have to compete fiercely for my business, I tend to get great service. Abusive and underhanded practices won't keep a company going long, because the negative PR will eventually drive other customers away. It's simple Darwinism - those that don't just don't survive long. Capitalism may not always be pretty, but it sure beats the living hell out of any other system the human race has tried thus far.
 

Re:Comcast

[Toandeaf]

I for one like private companies owning the lines as it is one more barrier to improper spying by the government. Well, in theory anyway. We should be seeing whether this is true or not next presidency.

Re:thats the reason for the block

[mabhatter654]

common carrier is different than open access. Comcast can be a closed network to outside companies, but a common carrier to their customers. The FCC has said they don't have to share lines, but Common Carrier status is determined differently. Although port blocking VIOP and such probably disqualifies them.

The way to fix this is a lawsuit from somebody sued by the RIAA that Comcast should have blocked them from doing bad things (not a common carrier) and/or Comcast should be preventing Media Sentry from trolling Comcast IP addresses looking for infringers (not protecting privacy of it's private clients). After all, if what they manage customers to do is "private" then what other people can access about their network should be "private" too.

Re:Comcast

[MobyDisk]

The problem has nothing to do with who owns the lines. The problem is that the government grants the owner of the lines a monopoly to deliver content over them. This would not be an issue if Comcast owned and maintained the lines, and Earthlink/Covad/First Communications/AOL competed to provide ISP services over those lines.

Re:I Agree With Comcast

[rusty0101]

I would note that it is up to the FCC to determine if Internet service over Cable is a mature technology to the point that it should be opened to providers other than the company that owns the cable plant. If the FCC decides that it is, then Comcast, Time Warner, and other cable companies will be required to open their plant to third party internet service providers, just as Qwest, Verizon and AT&T do for DSL service.

Comcast's monopoly techniques and customer complaints to the FCC are likely to result in a review of their decision a few years back that allowed them to get to the position they are in at this time. I tend to suspect that there is a significant percentage of the Comcast subscriber base who would consider an ISP connection cost of $20 a month across their cable plant to be a significant improvement over the current $100+ a month fees. (Sure Internet service is only a $50 part of that bill, unless you decide not to have cable TV service in which case it becomes a $75 a month charge.)

I.e. there's a 250% mark up compared to DSL with possibly double the bandwidth potentially available, and the opportunity to have your P2P sessions interfered with.

A reminder, the reason Comcast has been interfering with P2P sessions is that they have not built the capacity in their plant to handle the volume of customer traffic. They may be really happy to announce that they are now looking at rolling out DOCIS 3 with it's 100 meg to the customer bandwidth, but it appears they have not built the backbone to allow customers to make use of it. Lots of luck there.

Common Carrier. Solved.

[Bob9113]

True, false, whatever. The market is entirely capable of fixing this problem.

Here's the solution: Common carrier. There, problem solved.

All you have to do is say, "If you route every packet on your network the same regardless of origin, destination, or content, you are a common carrier, and you are not liable for what those packets constitute. If you treat anything flowing over your network preferentially, you are not a common carrier, and you are liable for the content of ever packet that travels on your network." Simple. Nobody is going to put their company in the path of child pornography enforcement. All this talk of extra legislation for net neutrality is completely unnecessary. The common carrier laws are already in place, the only remaining step is to clarify that they apply to data as well as voice.

I love the idea of net neutrality, but I am convinced we don't need an extra law to make it happen. Just enforce common carrier.

Am I missing something here?

Re:Is there a lawyer in the house?

[Shakrai]

But that's complete bullshit, Comcast has been granted monopolies in the cable market, so they HAVE meddled with the free market

And the people to bitch to about that would be your state and/or local politicians, because that's who granted the monopolies in the first place. I've never heard of a Federal cable franchise agreement......

Re:Challenge

[gabrieltss]

Unfortunately corporations DO run the government not the other way around. It's caleld Lobbiests, payoffs, bribes and the like. If a corporation wants something they just write a check and they get a law in their favor, a favorable ruling in court battle etc.. It's the facts.

Re:I Agree With Comcast

[Shakrai]

Who needs POTS?

Quite a few people, actually, but that's not the point (POTS is available on FiOS, albeit without line power). The point is that by cutting out the copper lines to your address you lose the option of switching to a CLEC for DSL or POTS services, i.e: your choices of internet/telephone service providers are reduced.

Re:Comcast

[phizix]

I for one like private companies owning the lines as it is one more barrier to improper spying by the government.

Especially companies like AT&T...

Re:Comcast

[Fatal67]

If I were comcast, I would just completely block P2P uploading as it violates the TOS. Not a popular answer I know, but my terms do say that I cannot run a server on my residential connection. P2P seeding should qualify as a file server. Comcast made the mistake of letting customers do something that was against the TOS for far too long. Not that there is a time limit on enforcing TOS, but it is always harder to give someone something and then take it away than it is to not give them something to begin with.

Re:Comcast

[sm62704]

someone might do time for it

Dream on. In America a rich powerful man only goes to prison if a richer, more powerful man wants him there. The rule of law is worthless when legislators are bought and sold like cattle.

For instance, how many Sony executives went to prison for the XCP rootkit? [wikipedia.org] That's right, none. Nobody from Comcast will serve time either, and if they donated enough money to the campaigns of the "elected" officials and legislators they'll continue to be able to abuse their customers.

And now for something completely [uncyclopedia.org] different: [uncyclopedia.org]

-mcgrew

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[electrictroy]

Comcast makes no distinction between small files and large files.

It is ALL blocked.

So no more Linux downloads if Comcast has its way. (Also your Usenet solution won't work, if Comcast decides to block that as well.) (And let's not forget how they locked Itunes.com because heaven forbid people watch tv on ipods, instead of on Comcast.)

FCC has Nukes.

[gnutoo]

Spectrum liberation is possible and it would put Comcast and their greasy counterparts in other areas out of business overnight. The FCC and FTC made these bitches and can break them because the public owns the air and public servitude. A sea change in administration is coming. Comcast should shut up before they find themselves replaced. The whole point of creating Comcast and friends was control [slashdot.org]. It would be better to have a government that was interested in freedom but that too would screw Comcast.

Don't be confused by the bluster. The government is in control.

Re:Comcast

[LeafOnTheWind]

Actually, our country has the largest highway system in the world (by far) and it is widely regarded as a modern marvel of engineering. "There's already pointless speed limits when everyone wants to go much faster" is the stupidest argument I have ever heard and potholes happen - the fact that the US government successfully manages a transcontinental system of 45,400 km in length through some of the most varied terrain in the world speaks to its efficacy. If you want to argue about government monopolies, you should probably pick something less successful.

Re:Comcast

[Shakrai]

If I were comcast, I would just completely block P2P uploading as it violates the TOS. Not a popular answer I know, but my terms do say that I cannot run a server on my residential connection. P2P seeding should qualify as a file server

Actually, it's only a server (in the classical sense) if it accepts incoming connections and most P2P apps (Bittorrent included) will function just fine without this ability, albeit with a reduced number of peers that it can reach.

Re:Just how STUPID IS Comcast?

[nitehawk214]

Welcome to the neighborhood. This has been Comcast's MO since they inherited the system from AT&T, who operated it exactly the same way. AT&T expanded the original cable internet system from TCI when they bought it. They promised that prices would go down as subscribers went up, but the opposite has been true for the last decade. Comcast has certainly raised the bar for screwing their customers, and they know they have them by the balls as most of the areas do not have the option of DSL or FIOS. I predict that once Verizon finds an efficent way of rolling FIOS out en masse, you will see Comcast begin to die a slow and painful death here.

Re:Comcast

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare you tarnish the Mob's name?

When someone screws up there, you can be assured it's taken care off. Not someone getting slapped and being given a golden parachute.

Unless it's an actual golden parachute.

Re:Comcast

[Tanktalus]

Uploading isn't prohibited. Waiting for, accepting, and responding to incoming requests on any port is. (Nevermind that ftp kinda works that way for non-passive connections.) Thus, putting your photos on a webserver or your video on youtube is fine. Your webcam probably isn't, though you might be hard-pressed to find a techie at comcast that understands why, or why blanket policies are bad policy.

Re:Comcast

[Mr2001]

I for one like private companies owning the lines as it is one more barrier to improper spying by the government.

It could be exactly the opposite. Remember, the Fourth Amendment only restricts the government, not private companies. The government can, and has, asked private companies to do the kind of snooping that the government itself is forbidden to do.