The $54 Million Laptop 502
Stanislav_J writes "It happens to the best of us: you drop off your laptop at the local branch of some Super Mega Electronics McStore, go to pick it up, and they can't find it. Lost, gone, kaput — probably sucked into a black hole and now breeding with lost airline luggage. It would make any of us mad, but Raelyn Campbell of Washington, D.C. isn't just mad — she's $54 million mad. That's how much she is asking from Best Buy in a lawsuit that seeks 'fair compensation for replacement of the $1,100 computer and extended warranty, plus expenses related to identity theft protection.' Best Buy claims that Ms. Campbell was offered and collected $1,110.35 as well as a $500 gift card for her inconvenience. (I guess that extra 35 cents wasn't enough to sway her.) Her blog claims that Geek Squad employees spent three months telling her different stories about where her laptop might be before finally acknowledging that it had been lost. For those who follow economic trends, this means that a laptop's worth is roughly equivalent to that of a pair of pants."
Somewhat justifiable (Score:5, Informative)
She's not the loon that the submitter tries to make her out to be. There are a bunch of mitigating factors here, and I highly suggest anyone who complains about her actiosn dig a little deeper.
The thing that really ticks me off more than anything is that the lady paid $300 for one of those ripoff store warranties. This kind of money is normally pure profit for companies, since very few people actually collect on it. However, when someone does have a problem, I expect them to fulfill their obligations on it, not lie and jerk around the customer who bought it for THREE MONTHS. To fix a friggin' POWER BUTTON.
Also, please keep in mind that she admits that she does not expect to actually win $54 million. The reason she chose that amount is because, as stated, they've been lying to her and jerking her around for three months, and this was the only way she felt that it could get any attention.
Normally, I frown upon these cases myself for being a drain on the system and a waste of time. But seriously, read what she's gone through [blogspot.com] before deciding that she's out of line for trying to punish them for how stupid they've been. She may not be 100% right here, but I don't think that she's 100% wrong, and I have to admit that I hope she gets a pretty high payout to strike a punitive blow against the company for its practices.
Read what she's gone through? (Score:5, Insightful)
Blogging is a creative art.
Re:Read what she's gone through? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Read what she's gone through? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Read what she's gone through? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Read what she's gone through? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
BBuy is great for small things like blank CD's or DVD's or USB sticks or whatever. I'm VERY hesitant to spend over $100 there or get something larg
Re:She's a loon. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, just because the loon wants the law to cover what happened doesn't mean it actually does.
Her blog indicates that the DC Attorney General seems to think that she has a case. So I guess you think she's out and out lying? Reading her blog, she seems to have done her best to *not* take this to court. Indeed, she doesn't even think $54M is reasonable, she's doing it to get BB's attention. But I guess it's too much to ask that you RTFA before you post.
The law only covers data and systems maintained by Best Buy, it does NOT cover data and systems maintained by the customer.
I don't even think you know which law she is claiming was violated, because you seem to be implying that she's complaining about the lost data on
Re:Again, no... YOU RTFA and RTFL. (Score:5, Informative)
Of course Best Buy "maintained, handled or otherwise possessed" the data. When they sold the insurance, what would you call it, if not a maintenance contract? And did they not then take actual possession of the machine, when she called on them to honor the contract? With the specific intent of fixing it because it was broken? That sure sounds like "maintenance" or "handling" to me, but she doesn't even need to prove that. She just has to prove that Best Buy possessed the data, that they lost it, and then stonewalled about it.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Then looking at the "breach of the security system" definition, plainly there was "unauthorized acquisition
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And they were maintaining it. That's implicit in the contract to repair it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, no, it says "person or business." Which includes the woman who lost her laptop, since she's a person.
There's simply nothing in the statue that appears to let BB off the hook, here, which is why even the local AG thinks they're not off the hook.
Obviously BB has liability here. I simply can't understand how you're reading the statute to apply only to data BB personally maintains; that's not what it says at all. BB's actions allowed "breach of the s
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:She's a loon. (Score:5, Informative)
You're wrong.
RTFA - the laptop was stolen from Worst Buy, most probably by an employee, as it was in a "secure area". As such, they are liable for the contents - it has nothing to do with any warranty or protection plan.
Worst Buys' sloppy procedures and/or dishonest employee(s) are the proximate cause. They're liable.
Considering that they lied to her for MONTHS about the laptop being missing, they were worse than wilfully negligent.
This is not a warranty issue. If she had brought an out-of-warranty laptop to be repaired, they'd still have the same problem. Someone (almost 100% certainty an employee) stole the laptop. They have to make good on it. Or are you going to argue that I can steal your laptop, your car, or anything else if its not under worranty, and you have no recourse?
She's not asking for a replacement laptop under warranty - the warranty doesn't cover THEFT!!! She's entitled to be made "complete" - and that involves compensating her for the laptop, its contents, and her lost time while they lied to her about it being stolen.
Again, this is not a warranty issue - Worst Buy "lost" her laptop after it was moved to a supposedly secure area. So, either an employee stole it, or an employee was negligent / gave access to someone else, who stole it. The warranty doesn't cover theft - the store is responsible. Nobody is obliged to "endure inconvenience" while a store loses/steals their property, then lies for months about it, then generates fake computer entries to say "yes, its in the system". Both the original theft and the fake computer entries were criminal acts.
Please RTFA -she never got it back. It was STOLEN!
Re:She's a loon. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not everyone is technical enough to crack a laptop open and yank the drive, and not every laptop facilitates that sort of thing with easy-to-access drives. When there's a fault, many people don't want to do this sort of thing anyway.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Except.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Best Buy needs to have it's ass handed to them in order to get this crap to stop and force them to take more stringent secur
No Employee of the Month? (Score:5, Funny)
Did this incident break your streak of Employee of the Month?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mod Parent Up (Score:5, Interesting)
Even if she eventually settles for legal fees + 5-10K the damage to Best Buy's rep has already been done.
Re:Mod Parent Up (Score:5, Funny)
You mean, "free advertisement for Best Buy has already been done"
With the current reputation of Best Buy or PC World it is not like you can damage it any further. That will require using irrational numbers and complex math to compute it.
Not any more unrealistic than the MPAA's figures (Score:5, Insightful)
I ask because, if the courts allow the MPAA to sue kids for tens of thousands PER SONG for simply sharing a copywritten work, then why not let her sue for tens of thousands for each of HER original works? After all, her damages are much WORSE than those claimed by the music industry -- her content has been permanently destroyed/lost, while the music industry still has their content and can continue to sell it.
(Frankly, I don't think either case deserves what they're asking. Reimburse market price or some small multiple of *actual market price* as a punitive measure -- $1100 for the laptop lady. $.99 per song for the music company.)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The second is potentially much more damaging. I'm sure some geeksquad employee stole it, probably reinstalled windows, and uses it to browse 4chan all evening. But we don't know that for sure.
Re:Mod Parent Up (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mod Parent Up (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sorry but suing for an incredibly large amount of money just to make a point is a bit ridiculous and when you publicly admit that you're doing it mostly out of spite, it makes you look like an ass.
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. First of all, it's working - she is getting media attention. I doubt she could have hoped for the same attention if she wanted to settle this in a small claims court (she was willing to do so at one point, but Best Buy seems to have repeatedly ignored her). Secondly, it seems to be common practice to sue for an enormous amount of money, realizing that the court will rarely ever award that much. As for being an ass, it looks like Best Buy is the one you should really accuse - they're playing all sorts of legal paperwork games, contesting every move (read her response to Best Buy's lawyer's claim that none of the defendants were served).
Incompetence ok, Lying Bad, Backups Priceless (Score:3, Interesting)
The local store lying about how they know where it is and they'll get it back to her Real Soon, on the other hand, and not taking responsibility for compensating her for losing it, is much closer to malice than incompetence, and they should get
Let's sell you a backup now (Score:2, Interesting)
The guys at [headquarters|vendor] like to erase hard drives. I'm sure you don't want anything to happen to your disk. For only $99.95 plus $49.95/DVD we can back your data up before we send your computer out for repair. Just sign here.
I made the $-figures up but I'm probably not far off.
Re: (Score:2)
If a bank loses a laptop with customer data on it, does the bank just go, "Don't worry, we've got backups of the data. Your information isn't lost."? Just because it's one person shouldn't make notification any different.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
All you can get is a rough estimate of it's loca
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Still, it will be difficult for her to "prove" that she had the formula for Coke, the Cure for Cancer, or where she put her car keys, etc.. on her laptop's HDD. I wish her luck.
OTOH, I maintain two separate physical hard drives for my PC laptop.
I simply removed the original OEM HDD as soon as I unboxed my laptop and I used (Drive Copy 4.0 boot floppies) to create an EXACT clone of the original HDD (onto a larger and
FTA: (Score:3, Interesting)
When I saw the total in the summary, I immediately thought "What's the big deal, she's trying to get punatives." Then read the article and saw that it wasn't even that. As usual, if you read just a few more paragraphs beyond what is quoted in Slashdot's article summary, the whole story is skewed much differently differently.
However, there is still room for debate on the issue
Re: (Score:2)
Password manager in your web browser... Firefox respectably doesn't save every password, but there are sites for which it has n
Re: (Score:2)
One of the claims (not in the linked article) is that she did not accept the money - BB unilaterally credited her card, and sent her a $500 gift certificate which she donated to a non-profit. BB is spinning that she "accepted" the payment.
From her blog [blogspot.com]
The courtroom is not a forum. (Score:3, Informative)
None of that changes the fact that: Filing suit to advertise and create a forum for your cause is extremely unlawful, and people who do it are rightfully punished. Why do you think we don't fr
Re: (Score:2)
However, there is still room for debate on the issue of whether she was treated fairly. FTA, "Best Buy spokeswoman Nissa French said in an e-mail that Campbell "was offered and collected $1,110.35" as well as "a $500 gift card for her inconvenience." The reasonable market value of the laptop that was stolen (in all likelihood by a Best Buy employee!) + $500 in merchandise? That seems like a reasonable way to try to dispose of any claim--especially since Ms. Campbell already accepted these items.
Except that she didn't "accept" them. From her blog:
Funds received to date total $1110.35, which were unilaterally transferred into my credit card account by Best Buy in late October -- without my knowledge or consent.
As for the gift card:
Best Buy also sent a $500 gift card to me in mid-October (with no explanation and despite repeatedly communicating that I had no interest in a gift card that would force me to patronize their stores). I subsequently advised them that I would donate it to a non-profit organization unless they requested its return, and did so in December, after not receiving a response.
Furthermore, Best Buy should have offered more than the "market value" of the laptop - remember, this transfer was made in October, while the laptop had been missing since May
Re:FTA: (Score:5, Insightful)
A) It was left at a trusted* location, hence where it was was assumed to be known.
B) It wasn't stolen, persay. Officially, it was lost.
C) It took three months for Best Buy to fess up to losing it.
Normally when your laptop gets stolen from you, you have a pretty good idea when that happens, I would wager within 24 hours you'd know it's missing. You don't sit down at a meeting one day and realize, "Holy crap, my laptop was stolen three months ago! I better start doing something about that!"
*Let's not quibble over the definition of trusted. It was believed to be a trusted location at least, and that's what matters.
Re: (Score:2)
Experiences with these in-store warranties can vary quite a bit. Obviously this lady had a bad one. When I was gifted an xbox several years ago, the person who bought it for me got a 2 year warranty on the thing. Up until then I'd always felt the warranty was a waste.. but a year later the xbox went tits up. Took it into the store and they refunded
The last person to sign for it stole it... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I guess this isn't a one-time problem with "losing" a laptop. A family member purchased a laptop at CompUSA (well before they folded) and got an extended warranty because every laptop purchased by the family has at least one hardware failure outside of the manufacturer's warranty. In this case the laptop was sent back on the extended warranty because the wireless card had died. Two weeks later, no laptop, and a call to the store yielded nothing. A week later, the store admitted they had no idea where the la
Re: (Score:2)
Completely different situation (Score:5, Informative)
This is not the same as "crazy pants guy". Let's count a few ways quickly:
...And so on. Like I said, this is a completely different situation.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As I said in another comment, when they claim to not be responsible for lost data, that might be true in the case of destroyed data... hard drive wipe, whatever. No way does that absolve them of lost as in negligently misplaced or stolen data.
Pervasive and systemic fraud of this nature, which I'm sure Best
If a single .MP3 is worth... (Score:5, Funny)
What the summary didn't include (Score:5, Informative)
"Campbell's tax returns were on her laptop, and Best Buy apparently violated Washington, DC's security breach notification laws by not telling her about the potential data loss. And the potential for data theft as a result of missing equipment is no laughing matter: the state of Ohio, TSA, IRS, US Department of Transportation, and the Veterans Administration have all lost equipment (often laptops) that have forced them to alert millions of citizens to watch out for identity theft. Campbell says that she still hasn't heard from Best Buy on that particular issue, and has been forced to incur extra costs to monitor all of her accounts for suspicious activity."
On top of that, the victim also notes that she herself thinks 54 mil is too much, but thinks it is necessary to get the media attention to make Best Buy do the right thing.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080212-victim-54-million-best-buy-lawsuit-stupid-but-necessary.html [arstechnica.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that, the victim also notes that she herself thinks 54 mil is too much, but thinks it is necessary to get the media attention to make Best Buy do the right thing.
She seems to want a minimum of $100,000 according to her blog http://www.bestbuybadbuyboycott.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com] which I feel is a bit much even for what she claims to have gone through. From her blog:
3) Full compensation ($25,000, per my letter to Mr. Feivor) for my direct expenses and time related to restoring my property and resolving this issue. 4) Treble and other damages in the amount of $75,000, for the completely unnecessary 6- month ordeal Best Buy has put me through.
Yeah, what happened sucks, but I'm of the opinion what she's asking for is still a bit unreasonable. I'm by no means an apologist for Best Buy, in fact I really dislike them, but I think 54 mil is completely ludicrous and $100,000 is a bit greedy.
Re:What the summary didn't include (Score:5, Insightful)
While $100,000 is more than enough to *give to her*, I'm not sure it's anywhere near enough to be *taken from them*.
Re:What the summary didn't include (Score:4, Informative)
Punitive damages really don't have much to do with greed on the part of the plaintiff , but rather punishment on the defense side. If the judge thinks Best Buy was negligent and should be punished, then the amount has to be significant enough for them to "hurt" and want to avoid it in the future.
Best Buy is a big company. My guess is it'd take more than a million dollars to make them flinch.
Re:What the summary didn't include (Score:5, Insightful)
You're missing the point. When the other entities mentioned lost those laptops, do you think they knew their contents? Probably not. The point is that the consumer needs to be notified immediately in case there is sensitive information on there...not lied to for months on end while some script kiddie with a part time job at Best Buy is POTENTIALLY using her SSN.
It's precisely because Best Buy didn't know what was on her computer that they're required to notify her about it.
Re:What the summary didn't include (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
It's very foreseeable.
Similar Situation (Score:4, Interesting)
I ran into difficulties with Best Buy ... (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe I should sue Best Buy for their disciminatory ass-kissing policy
Re:Similar Situation (Score:5, Interesting)
Heck, the first CompUSA I worked at in high school, the front end manager was busted for skimming the drawers. The cage manager got busted with his van at the loading doc moving inventory out. The tech bench manager skipped town with thousands of dollars worth of memory and processors. The General Manager got busted on tax evasion. All within a year and a half time span.
I had a friend pick up a job there a year later while I was in the military, they had all new management, with new vices. Instead of ripping off the store/customers, the wound up with a bunch of small time pot dealers in supervisor/middle management positions. Not like they were doing business in the store, but their smoke breaks were a taken in back by the loading doc. On the bright side though, they got great customer reviews for their friendliness and chipper attitude.
-Rick
Re: (Score:2)
Managers tell you to lie (Score:5, Interesting)
I roll my eyes at a lot of the complaints leveled at the company b/c I stand on the other side of the counter. However, this one is completely true and happens frequently on a wide-spread basis. I hope she wins this case and forces corporate to change a blatantly anti-customer policy.
Re:Managers tell you to lie (Score:5, Insightful)
...and that's why *I* always... (Score:2)
Most people simply don't know better and they certainly don't know what they are signing when they sign various release documents. What they know is what they are being tol
Honesty and responsibility (Score:4, Interesting)
Assuming that Best buy only loses 1 laptop per hour, that is less than 2 million dollars a year, probably mostly tax deductible. Such a policy may even provide a competitive advantage as it will clearly indicate that Best Buy is dedicated to customer service and will not jerk their customers around. We know that the opposite is true, but such a gimmick could change this.
In the end best buy will prefer to spend 2 millions dollars on lawyers rather than establish protocols to increase customer value.
Price quotes... (Score:4, Funny)
Punative (Score:4, Insightful)
It has everything to do with a refusal to acknowledge they'd lost it, making constant excuses for a long time, followed by a refusal to pay up promptly even what it was undeniable.
It was only after she threatened to sue for the large amount that they finally got around to paying the smaller amount. Until they were in danger, they weren't in any hurry to deal with it.
There's often minimal incentive to avoid repeating the mistake if all you ever have to pay is actual physical cost, ignoring value of lost data, and you can get away with postponing making that payment, requiring endless forms of validation, follow up calls where they sit on hold for hours, etc. until they give up.
The idea of punative damages is that it's accepted that a bare minimum effort doesn't come close to being adequate and a dramatically higher cost is required to spur them in to acting in the way they knew they should have in the first place.
If BestBuy had got on and acknowledge the loss, promptly paying up, they likely wouldn't be facing this. Instead, their responding only when threatened with large punative damages, demonstrated that that's exactly what's necessary to get them to truly fulfill their obligations.
Had she asked for millions the instant they lost it, she'd get laughed out of court. That they demonstrated a complete unwillingness to address the issue until they were faced with that kind of a threat is going to get noted in a court case.
She'll unlikely see the $50m+. She'll be lucky if she sees $5m that gets reduced to $500k on appeal. But the pain of facing that, getting lawyers involved and all the rest of it is going to make an impression on BB policy for the future far more than any number of angry letters will.
Punitive damages (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think it thru she started by being quite reasonable and not getting any response. Then the response she got was close to criminal. And now they are trying to make her the badguy. I hope BestBuy gets p0wn'd.
What a crappy piece of reporting (Score:5, Insightful)
For example:
"Campbell, who could not be reached Tuesday," - Campbell's whole point of this is to get exposure. I seriously doubt she intentionally avoided the call. How long did Jackie Crosby give Ms Campbell to reply? 10 minutes?
"Best Buy Spokeswoman said Campbell was offered and collected $1110.35" if you read Ms Campbell's story BB deposited this straight into her credit card account w/o prior discussion. Would have been nice if Ms Crosby mentioned this fact in her news story.
"Melissa Ngo, senior counsel with the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, D.C.,
Re:identity theft protection? (Score:5, Informative)
Not only did they fail to do that, they repeatedly lied to her and made up stories about where it was so that only months later did she actually realize that her data was at risk.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But you can't expect an average computer user to be pulling apart pieces of hardware before having repairs done; it simply isn't feasible. Besides, if she did pull the HD, Best Buy would probably turn around and claim she violated the terms of her warranty and that they won't fix it.
(Alternatively, the computer "expert" behind the counter will claim (after two months) to have found the real source of the problem: th
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The bonus for me was that when they sent the replacement computer, I now have a backup mini 80gb SATA drive in case the new laptop's hard drive bites the dust.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Last i heard service companies ( unless they explicitly have a contract with you stating otherwise ) aren't liable for your data other the 'best effort', so i don't see how that applies.
If she had sensitive data on there, she should have pulled the HD first. Sux to be her.
1) They're not liable for destroying your data. For example, if you bring your laptop in for service and they reformat the hard drive, you can't sue them for losing the only copy you had of your wedding photos. This is completely different than losing track of your data and allowing it to fall into untrusted hands.
2) Removing the hard drive is exactly the kind of procedure that people are paying service centers like this to perform. Sure, pulling the hard drive out is an easy thing for you the Slashdott
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:5, Informative)
Obviously you didn't read the whole thing. She originally offered to settle for the cost of the laptop plus a grand to cover part of the cost of lost software, music, etc. She offered this as an alternative to her going to small claims and getting a judgment for $5k, which she probably would have gotten, given the time she's wasted getting them to even admit it was stolen in the first place, and the lies (and the fraudulently generated computer entries in their own system) to try and cover their rectums.
She agrees the amount she's asking is outrageous - and that she's doing so because maybe THAT is what it takes to get Worst Buy's attention, exp. vis. the whole "identity theft" issue.
I particularly like how she "bitch-slapped" the corporate lawyer's motion to quash.
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
because it's a classic case of wild, outrageous, or ridiculous lawsuits.
Go look up the actual facts of the case and then STFU!
I am quite familiar with the facts of the case.
Stella Liebeck was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when they got coffee at a McDonalds. Instead of handling the cup safely, she placed it between her (pointy) knees, and pulled the lid off. The pulling caused the cup to rotate between her knees, spilling the coffee on
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"National Coffee Association" my achin' ass. Anyone claiming no liquid that won't burn your skin is worth putting in your mouth is, by definition, a tit.
another article suggests industry standard is 160 to 185 degrees...in the early 1990's home coffeemakers only brewed up to 130-140 degrees...Stella Liebeck suffered terrible third-degree burns
Whether or not you have teflon lips that allow you to drink liquids at the "expert-recommended" just-shy-of-
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, that was not my source. Please play again.
in the early 1990's home coffeemakers only brewed up to 130-140 degrees
And today, they brew hotter.
http://www.bunn.com/retail/bunn_difference.html [bunn.com]
"The patented ready-to-brew reservoir keeps water at the ideal brewing temperature of approximately 200. (Conventional home brewers heat water until it boils up to coffee basket.)"
Bunn also rec
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:5, Informative)
Read up on the Facts of the case [lawandhelp.com]
The facts of the case, which caused a jury of six men and six women to find McDonald's coffee was unreasonably dangerous and had caused enough human misery and suffering that no one should be made to suffer exposure to such excessively hot coffee again, will shock and amaze you:
McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.
McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.
McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.
McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.
McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)
McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.
McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media."
Which seems to reinforce the GP's assertion that the original judgment was unreasonable.
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:4, Interesting)
So they saved money by keeping it that hot. And it was probably a LOT more than the reward in the lawsuit.
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Fact: McDonalds did not have the coffee 'too hot':
The National Coffee Association recommends coffee be brewed at "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit for optimal extraction" and drunk "immediately". If not drunk immediately, it should be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." Coffee makers for your HOME brew at a water temp of 200+ degrees.
McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation -
Fact: 700 cases, in the last 10 years, nationwide. But that doesn't take into account how many cups are sold without incident. A McDonald's consultant pointed out the 700 cases in 10 years represents just 1 injury per 24 million cups sold! For every injury, no matter how severe, 23,999,999 people managed to drink their coffee without any injury whatever. Isn't that proof that the coffee is not "unreasonably dangerous"?
McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.
Appeal to Emotion. It is irrelevent how severe her injuries were.
McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.
Fact: McDonalds coffee cups have ALWAYS had a "Caution: Hot" warning on them.
McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company
The jury found for the poor little old lady with the great big, painful burns. It's called basign their decision on their Emotions instead fo the facts.
McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants
Wrong, wrong wrong.
http://www.coffeeserviceplus.com/perfect-cup.html [coffeeserviceplus.com]
"Brewing temperature should be 195 to 205 degrees Fahrenheit. "
http://www.auniquecoffeeservice.com/brewingsystems.html [auniquecoffeeservice.com]
"205 F Brewing Temperature "
http://www.morekitchenappliances.com/asp/show_detail.asp?sku=ZOJ1066&PiID=2259383&refid=MP108-ZOJ1066_2259383#ProdDetails [morekitche...iances.com]
"Heat Retention*: 169F at 10 hrs./136F at 24 hrs.
*Rating is based on water at a starting temperature of 203F (95C) at a room temperature of 68F (20C) "
http://www.bunn.com/retail/dos_donts.html [bunn.com]
Do: "us[e] a brewer that keeps water at 200 Fahrenheit (the ideal temperature) "
also
Don't: "Re-heat for serving any coffee with a temperature below 175 F "
http://www.homeclick.com/1/1/13032-velox-travel-coffee-maker-yellow-7027y.html [homeclick.com]
"Just plug in and the coffee automatically dispenses at the correct 180 degree temperature"
Do I need to continue???? All these references show that the 'proper' temp for brewing coffee is around 200 degrees. Several references show that the coffee should be served hot, around 180-190 degrees (ie: Bunn says if it's below 175 degrees, it is too cold).
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:5, Informative)
Bunn does not say that 175 is too cold. They say "Dont reheat it".
And the rest of your articles give brewing temperature, not serving temperature.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They say 'don't reheat it', because once it's fallen to 175, it no longer tastes good. Therefore, for it to taste good, you need to keep it ABOVE 175. McDonalds had it 180-185.
And the rest of your articles give brewing temperature, not serving temperature.
NOT TRUE. Learn to read. The Homeclick link says "dispenses at the correct 180 degree temperature" DISPENSES, as in "serving temp", of 180.
The Morekitchenappliences link is refering to a SE
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Despite the litigation culture, most people accept that spilling your coffee is *your* accident - unless they've served boiling hot coffee to a 3 year old, it's an unfortunate accident for which no one should be liable.
Depends on who gets to do the pricing (Score:5, Funny)
She only had about 50 songs on there, but she was using the prices put forward by the RIAA's lawsuits.
Re:Tenleytown Best Buy! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You know, I bought a Compaq laptop a while back, and it had an overheating problem. I called Compaq, and a prepaid shipping container was at my door the next day. I sent it off, and it came back real fast.
Not all companies are dedicated to the worst customer service they can manage.