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Microsoft Software

Promise of OOXML Oversight By ISO Falls Through 216

640 Comments Are Enough for Anyone writes "Microsoft is going back on one of their promises concerning OOXML. While they originally made assurances that the ISO would take control of the standard if it were approved, Microsoft is now reversing that position and keeping near-full control over OOXML with the ECMA. This is significant because the ECMA is the group that originally rubber-stamped OOXML. It seems unlikely that they will force changes to correct problems with the standard. In Microsoft's new plan, the ISO would only be allowed to publish lists of errata and would be unable to make OOXML compatible with existing ISO standards, while the ECMA would be the one to control any new versions of the standard."
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Promise of OOXML Oversight By ISO Falls Through

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  • by Citizen of Earth ( 569446 ) on Thursday December 06, 2007 @08:04PM (#21605983)

    Office XML specification (note the absence of "Open,"

    I think the proper name that every knowledgeable should use for it is "Microsoft Office XML (MSOXML)", because this is exactly what it is.

    As for Microsoft shooting itself in the foot, I don't think it matters. I predict that MSOXML will be approved at the next ISO meeting because ISO is a fundamentally corrupt organization. It is fundamentally corrupt because it allows every country in the world to have the same voting weight, and the majority of countries in the world are fundamentally corrupt (and easily bribed by Microsoft). Voting must be weighted in some counter-bullshit-country way to avoid this problem. I think a good way to accomplish this is to weigh the votes by country GDP.

  • Re:Zonk, you moron (Score:3, Interesting)

    by terraformer ( 617565 ) <tpb@pervici.com> on Thursday December 06, 2007 @08:09PM (#21606035) Journal
    It is actually Ecma. Ecma no longer stands for European Computer Manufacturers Association. It is just plain ol' Ecma International now.
  • Ecma == MS (Score:2, Interesting)

    by recharged95 ( 782975 ) on Thursday December 06, 2007 @08:11PM (#21606069) Journal
    isn't Ecma the steward of all the current Microsoft open standards? So far the only Ecma standard that isn't Microsoft referenced is Universal3D (which is more Adobe related). The again, U3D should have given way to X3D and VRML...This Going with Ecma make sense, they need something to battle ANSI and ISO.
  • by Citizen of Earth ( 569446 ) on Thursday December 06, 2007 @08:26PM (#21606255)

    There is a good deal of excellent work done there but this will be a blight that will be a long time in removing.

    What is this excellent work? ECMA's Wikipedia page is just a laundry list of rubber-stamped Microsoft products.

  • Re:FFS (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Dunbal ( 464142 ) on Thursday December 06, 2007 @08:48PM (#21606467)
    Why the hell doesn't anyone stop this crap from happening.

          They do, but Microsoft either a) ignores the ruling and throws money and lawyers at the courts to get an appeal and/or b) doesn't pay the fines/make the required changes. So until someone gets the balls to arrest the board of directors and throw them in jail for contempt, it's business as usual.
  • by man_of_mr_e ( 217855 ) on Thursday December 06, 2007 @10:39PM (#21607537)
    Nobody should be surprised by this, much less Rob Weir. He feigns surprise and acts like this is a shocking development.

    Here's news for you, and Rob, and everyone else. *NO FAST TRACK ISO STANDARD IS OWNED BY ISO*. Fast tracking, by it's very design, puts the onus on standards maintenance and evolution on the standards body that submits it.

    Rob knows this, but he's being deliberately disingenuous.

    By the way, the same is true for ODF. OASIS is the steward for current ODF maintenance and improvement.
  • by filbranden ( 1168407 ) on Friday December 07, 2007 @12:11AM (#21608217)

    The more articles I read about FOSS vs. MS, the more I start to realise what MS's war tactics: to redirect the enemy's effort so that MS wins time.

    I mean, that's the only possible explanation for:

    1. The MOOXML standards effort and all the nastiness that happened involving bribes, etc.
    2. The Classmate project with Intel, and now trying to run Windows on the OLPC itself.
    3. The supposed patents that Linux infringes, and the Novell deal.
    4. Silverlight & .NET, and having MS shills in Novell develop Moonlight & Mono.

    It all seems so absurd, but most people tend to think that MS's end objectives are to win those battles (the ISO standard, Windows in schools, or to sue RH for patents).

    In fact, I think that they realised that their software cannot compete in quality with FOSS, even more now after Vista, that they gave up on improving their software quality, and decided to try to make lots of random absurd statements that will enrage FOSS community, and have them (us) all engaging in forums, political discussion, standards organizations...

    Eventually, they'll get the last of us to stop coding to engage on the war against them.

    And who will lose? The users, of course.

    The saddest part is that their tactics are working. The hope is that, so far, I think FOSS is showing that it's stronger that MS not only in coding ability and software quality, but in politics as well.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 07, 2007 @12:57AM (#21608537)
    Suppose Microsoft's open XML format does not get passed by the ISO as it very obviously should not. What effect with this have?

    I predict that this will do nothing but destroy ISO. Look, everyone that knows what a "standard" is knows what this whole fiasco is about. It may fool a few politicians (who aren't really chosen on the basis of any IQ test) and some PHB's (who really only coast on the backs of the techies who work under them) but they will all fail eventually when no one can read the .docs that Microsoft has decided to no longer support without paying $1000's. Let us not forget that ISO stands for International Standards Organization. If they accept this, which is obviously not "standard" (see below), then what are they?

    Is .doc an ISO standard?

    Not only is it not an "ISO standard", it isn't a "standard" at all really. Standard implies that there are rules that can be followed, that someone understands the rules and can create new software that follows those rules. Microsoft has never seen fit to publish any comprehensive summary of the rules, leaving them as the only ones capable of understanding .doc. As they have proven over the last several revisions of Word, they can't do any of the things that a "standard" implies either.

    Assuming that Microsoft does not add support in its office suite for the current ISO standard ODF. How many people will actually use ODF if the majority have software that cannot read odf files out of the box? Who will use odf? Who does now?

    Let me answer all of these at once with an anecdote. I worked for a company that produced products that were built on propietary microcontroller hardware and firmware. They maintained a library of several hundred different manuals in Word97 .doc format since, after all, that was the industry "standard". Well, they fought for a long time, but eventaully they had to succumb to Microsoft's upgrade pressure when Office 97 was no longer available, we couldn't read other's "standard" .doc files anymore and the BSA was breathing down everyone's neck about audits and illegal software (Google Ernie Ball). They upgraded to Office 2000 and had to reformat every manual. Not one would print correctly from Word 2000! Sometimes it was as simple as changing the spacing in headers/footers, many times it requires reformatting damned near every page, but not even one manual would print correctly in the new Word2000.

    So, to answer your question:
    Anyone who desires to continue to work with documents they have created and doesn't desire to rework documents they have created every time Microsoft releases a new version of Office can use odf files as an alternative. There are other formats, but I have been with Open Office since version 1.0 and I have yet to see the kind of screwup that I described above. I have my own products that are hardware/firmware based and all my manuals are written in Open Office. Right now I work with the files in Open Office, translate into .pdf's for distribution and politely but firmly refuse when anybody requests .doc versions of the manuals. So far, it hasn't been a problem. Since Open Office now works natively with odf files, that is fine with me. As (if) odf files become more accepted, I feel even more secure in the fact that, if Open Office ever pulls a stunt like I described above, I can move to another piece of software without losing all my previous work.
  • by jkrise ( 535370 ) on Friday December 07, 2007 @02:36AM (#21609199) Journal
    Ask anyone who is NOT knowledgeable and what do they call it? "Microsoft Office 2007 format". And what does it work with? "Microsoft Office 2007". THAT is what it is. Even the Blow Joe's of with world know it's Microsoft propitiatory Office 2007 format and nothing more.

    You are so correct. Which is why, Alan Bell's suggested name change in one of the 600-odd resolutions becomes very meaningful. He suggests renaming the standard as "Legacy Data Formats Represented in XML". I would add a 'partially' or 'confusingly' before Represented to make things even more clear to the Average Joe.

    ****
    "US - 270

    Naming DIS 29500: The current name of DIS 29500, Office Open XML is seriously misleading in several respects. First, it is not a document format based on XML but rather an XML representation of a legacy document format with particular processing semantics. Second, reference should not be made to commercial products and clearly "Office" in the title of this proposal is meant as a reference to Microsoft Office. Lastly, the proposal is no more or less open than any other ISO proposal and so "Open" is meaningless in this context.

    It is suggested that a new name be chosen for the proposal that reflects its goal of representing and continuing a legacy document format as represented in XML. Such a name should not carry an implied reference to a Microsoft product nor should it use the term "open." One possible name would be: Legacy Document Formats Represented in XML. The principles developed from this effort might well prove effective for other legacy document formats that should be represented in XML.

    DIS 29500"
    ****

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