Mike Godwin hired by Wikimedia Foundation

Raul654 writes "Mike Godwin, first legal counsel for the EFF who is best known for coining Godwin's law, has been hired as the legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation."

Obligatory...

[perlionex]

XKCD Comic: [xkcd.com]

Soldier: General, Italian forces have entered Egypt.
General: As I expected. This is a foolish move by Mussolini, but like Hitler he will no doubt force his commanders to --
Soldier: Hey. Godwin's law.
General: Dammit. You know, this may become a problem.

Re:

[tlhIngan]

I believe the purposeful invokation of Godwin's Law doesn't actually work, unfortunately.

It's more like Moore's Law in that respect, and less like the Laws of Thermodynamics.

I wonder how fast the comments in this article *will* degenerate, though. (Something Godwin's Law doesn't predict, unfortunately).

Michael Moore's Law

[stefanlasiewski]

I wonder how fast the comments in this article *will* degenerate, though.

Wait, do you mean Michael Moore?

Michael Moore has two laws:


Michael Moore's Law #1: As an real-world situation grows longer, the probability of a Michael Moore complaining about the problem approaches one.

Michael Moore's Law #2: The rate at which a discussion degenerates will double every 24 months.

Re:

[LarsG]

Yes.

The law itself only says "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one".

On Usenet it has historically (Whow, the early days of Usenet is history now. Man, I'm old.) been used to indicate that a debate thread has become so heated that it no longer serves a useful purpose. When that happens, the thread is declared dead ("Godwin's law! I win!") and whoever made the comparison is considered the loser. It isn't valid to invoke Godwin on purpos

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are an outrageous karma whore.

Re:Obligatory...

[Yetihehe]

Well, as online discussions grows longer, probability of comparison involving ANYTHING approaches one. It's like with million monkeys typing random letters, but online users actually produce gramatical content (mostly).

Digg Dugg

[Dogtanian]

It's like with million monkeys typing random letters,

Reminds me of Digg...

but online users actually produce gramatical content

That's not true in every case....

(mostly).

...oh, okay, you remembered Digg after all. ;-)

Re:

[fxer]

It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?!

Re:

[poopdeville]

Sorry, that's not true. There might be things nobody ever talks about. So their probability of coming up in conversation is forever 0. :fnord

Re:

[Bloke down the pub]

I thought it was more like:

Rommel: "Mein Fuhrer, the Italians have joined the war!"
Hitler: "Can we spare ten divisions to put against them?".
Rommel: "But they're on our side".
Hitler: "Himmel! We'll have to find fifteen divisions!".

To get back on topic, I thought Godwin's law doesn't apply where the topic actually is Hitler and/or Nazis - though I can't find a reference for it.

Re:

[oliverthered]

So your saying Godwin's law doesn't apply to Bush or Blair either?

Re:

[/dev/trash]

yeah you might wanna read your history books again.

Re:Obligatory...

[Evilest Doer]

To get back on topic, I thought Godwin's law doesn't apply where the topic actually is Hitler and/or Nazis - though I can't find a reference for it.

It doesn't apply, but that never stops a bunch of stupid slashbots from invoking it every time Hitler is mentioned. And, your "reference" would be simple logic.

Godwin's law is more for things like discussions on whether coffee or tea is better, with the tea lover calling the coffee lover a Nazi since Hitler liked coffee.

Discussions on, say, comparing a certain president - who invades countries on false pretenses, tries to establish a police state in his own country, calls people who disagrees with him "traitors", kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and calls it "collateral damage", and so on - with Hitler would not invoke Godwin's law since there is a reasonable basis for a comparison.

Re:

[seaturnip]

Ha. But I'm not seeing the "false pretenses" for invasion. Japan attacked first and Germany attacked US allies.

PARENT doesn't deserve the -1 Redundant mod

[Daychilde]

There are multiple ways of interpreting it, but it's a valid reply to its parent.

Re:

[GuldKalle]

So, the soldier is a Godwin's Law-nazi?

Re:

[Cctoide]

Not to be mean, but is there some /. rule that states "xkcd" has to be mis-capitalized on the first post of every comment thread? I thought we'd learned our lesson with "PERL"...

Hmm

[Quiet_Desperation]

Wil he be revising any entry involving Hitler?

Re:

[ThisIsWhyImHot]

If he is to revise any entry involving hitler, godwin's law dictates that it'll form an infinite loop and wikipedia will explode

Re:

[the_womble]

No, he will remove entries mentioning the Nazi's altogether, because if Wikipedia mentions the Nazis, it automatically loses.

So I heard...

[skrolle2]

So I heard he's somewhat of a legal nazi...

Amazing

[FieroEtnl]

Only three comments and this thread has already been Godwin'ed. I'm sure he would be proud.

Re:

[Eudial]

Only three comments and this thread has already been Godwin'ed. I'm sure he would be proud.

Aww don't be a Goodwin's Law Nazi and point out every post that confirms Goodwin's law.

Re:

[smittyoneeach]

Jehova! Jehova! Jehova!

Re:

[owlnation]

Only three comments and this thread has already been Godwin'ed. I'm sure he would be proud.

He's chosen the right Firm to work for now. The subject of Nazis and fascist behavior comes up faster in any discussion around Wikipedia than through any other. In fact, I'm sure the number of Wikipedia/Nazi comparisons triples every three months.

Maybe someone could write a Wales Corollary -- or a "Rand Corollary", perhaps more appropriately.

Re:

[jeffasselin]

I first read "Wiles" and wondered what FLT had to do with this. Then I wondered what the Wheel of Time had to do with this. Then I realized it was Wales and Ayn, not Al'Thor.

Re:

[mazarin5]

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, but that should read "have already been."

If you cant call people a nazi

[SlashDread]

We all will become nazis, but call it something else.

SlashDread's correlation....

then call them

[ja]

A lawyer?

Re:

[daeg]

Did you miss the part about Godwin being the first legal counsel to the EFF?

Re:

[Elemenope]

Might as well get this out of the way before someone else posts this who gives a damn...but that is kind of a dubious distinction. After all, since when has the EFF ever actually won any cases?

Re:Qualifications

[mnemonic]

EFF won the Steve Jackson Games case and Reno versus ACLU. Both cases were won while I was staff counsel at EFF. Just saying.

(I should add that I'm proud of EFF's work since then.)

Re:

[Elemenope]

Good call. I forgot about the "Steve Jackson Games is the Enemy of the State" case (and am ashamed, as I used to play GURPs a bit and should know better). I prefaced my comment with the "I don't care so much" because I'm not a rabid EFF watcher and a pretty consistent meme around here has been "EFF never wins cases" and I was stupid enough never to check the facticity of that meme. I appreciate your correction.

Re:

[jdp]

> EFF won the Steve Jackson Games case and Reno versus ACLU. Both cases were won while I was staff counsel at EFF. Just saying.

Well said -- and congratulations, Mike!

Can you share anything with us about what you'll be primarily focusing on?

jon

Re:

[mnemonic]

Hi, Jon.

I'm lucky enough (or unlucky enough) to be focusing on the full range of legal issues facing the Wikimedia Foundation. You can guess what some of them are (copyright, defamation, international law, etc.).

--Mike

Re:

[Loligo]

Mike did good work for the EFF.

And god help you if you took a contrary position on Austin chat systems back in the mid-80s. He verbally shredded all who opposed him.

  -l

(Hey Mike. Long time. Sorry about throwing up in your bathroom sink at Glen's going away party 20ish years ago.)

Re:

[mnemonic]

Don't worry, I'm over the whole sink thing.

By the way, Glen is now my neighbor in Silver Spring!

--Mike

Re:

[paleo2002]

Yes, I understand he's a lawyer and no doubt quite qualified. Yale Law School? OK, I hear Yale still does that well at least.

I looked at the article summary, read "Godwin's Law" and thought to myself 'I never heard of Godwin's Law, but it must be succinct and insightful like Moore's Law". I followed the link to discover that's its basically a joke about internet discussions. I wish people would be more judicious when declaring things "laws".

The Law of Inverse Squares is a law. Comparing Walmart

Re:

[macdaddy357]

Yeah! Wal-Mart is like Maoist China, not Nazi Germany.

Re:

[mindspillage]

Damn, someone's leaked the sooper sekrit info on the decision process. I hate it when that happens.

Re:

[Titoxd]

Er, there's a decision process?

And I wonder why I'm trying to be funny on Slashdot, instead of asking on your talk page... heh.

(Mods: Mindspillage is a member of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees, btw)

Re:Qualifications - Slow Down, Cowboy!

[DaveCar]

Can I work for NASA now?

Not until you've been a research fellow at Yale University for 2 years.

Re:

[gkhan1]

"Everything in science comes in twos, threes, and fives."

Someone hasn't heard of the Maxwell Equations [wikipedia.org]

Hmm

[Uthic]

He'll need to make a law about jokes about Godwin's Law :P

Re:

[rs79]

"He'll need to make a law about jokes about Godwin's Law"

Oh let me go first: Sexton't law: "Make up a snappy one line for alt.flame and Mike Godwin will steal it for his own".

Check the dates:
http://groups.google.com/group/news.groups/msg/b54 314f075182eeb [google.com]

Re:

[kwoff]

I'm sure that there have been plenty of others during the decades after WWII who had similar ideas, too...

Been Hired, eh?

[user24]

well we all know what happened when people got hired in Nazi Germany. Do we want that happening to wikipedia? huh? HUH?

Re:Been Hired, eh?

[eggboard]

Damn, I wanted to make that joke. Mine was shorter: "The Nazis have won."

Do no evil

[Bloke down the pub]

Don't do evil - annexe it.

It's about time

[grouse]

After all these years of Slashdot being godwinned, it's about time that Godwin is slashdotted. Congrats, Mike.

No doubt

[simong]

We'll be seeing him in internet court [encycloped...matica.com].

Re:

[mnemonic]

That's okay. We still love you.

--Mike

Argh

[mnemonic_]

So you're the guy who took my handle.

Good Fit

[MSTCrow5429]

As almost any argument on Wikipedia ends up evokes Godwin's Law...

Re:

[MSTCrow5429]

evokes > evoking.

He'd make awesome council

[Weaselmancer]

As soon as he starts to lose, all he has to do is mention the Nazis and get a retrial.

Re:

[masterzora]

Two problems with that:
1) The corollary that states that the comparison to Nazis or Hitler ends the discussion usually also states that whoever made the comparison loses
2) It always states that a purposeful invocation of Godwin's Law does not trigger the corollary.

But, other than that, humorous comment on your part!

Re:

[rs79]

I should have theougt the pudgy pot smoking basement dwelling freedom (and in everything) loving crowd of slashdot would have recognized the proprietary capture of a cool and friendly slogan by a lawyer when they saw. But maybe not.

My purpose in the original incantation of same ( http://groups.google.com/group/news.groups/msg/b54 314f075182eeb [google.com] ) was to guarentee the freedom and protection from proprietary interests of said meme in a pre-prenguin gpl'less world.

And what happens? You schmucks play right into

Re:

[mnemonic]

Hi, Richard.

As you know, I fully credit your having had some inkling of Godwin's Law before I formalized it. :-)

Next thing you'll be telling me that somebody invented cars before Henry Ford and that Apple didn't invent the personal computer!

Seriously, I will admit that I'd have thought about stealing a line from Richard Sexton, who is a crafter of great lines, had I known about Richard and the line in advance. But the greatest influence on Godwin's Law was Keith Henson's article about memes in Whole Earth R

Makes me a little sad...

[Distan]

It make me a little sad to see someone who was once on the side of good (the EFF) turn to the side of evil (Wikipedia). I guess everybody has their price.

Hopefully, once he sees Wikipedia from the inside, he will join the exodus of ex-insiders who have walked away from Jimbo's empire.

Re:Makes me a little sad...

[dubl-u]

It make me a little sad to see someone who was once on the side of good (the EFF) turn to the side of evil (Wikipedia).

Yes, darn them for providing a great free reference site whose content is all licensed under the GFDL. Thank goodness people are seeing through their sinister plan to educate the populace while proving that open content can work just as well as open software!

But why does Wikimedia need him?

[Animats]

I'm surprised. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't have serious legal problems. They need an intellectual property lawyer on tap, but most of their stuff is routine.

They may need a tax guy. With Jimbo Wales involved in both the profit-making Wikia and the nonprofit Wikimedia, there are issues with IRS nonprofit status for Wikimedia. (See Instructions for IRS form 1023, line 5A) [irs.gov].

Wikia is turning into a popular culture/fan system; they have the Star Wars wiki and various other fan sites. One could argu

Re:

[i kan reed]

Yeah, it's not like anyone would consider throwing a slander lawsuit at wikimedia...

You know who else they hired?

[Civil_Disobedient]

Yeah, you know who else Wikimedia hired? That's right.

Great....

[kbox]

.. The guy who invents "laws" to help him win arguments can actually make important decisions now...

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[mnemonic]

That's news to me, Steve. I'm opposed to American right-wing excesses myself.

--Mike