Safari 3 vs. Firefox 2 and IE7 559
Bobcat writes "Ars Technica has a 'first look' at Safari for Windows, which is interesting because it's written from the perspective of someone new to Safari. It was tested against Firefox 2 and IE7 and aside from the slightly faster page loading, Ars didn't find much to recommend it to Windows users. 'The modest increase in rendering performance is hardly worth the deficiencies, and Safari's user interface simply doesn't provide the usability or flexibility of competing products. If the folks at Apple think that providing Windows users with a taste of Mac OS X through Safari is going to entice them to buy a Mac, it's going to take a better effort than the Safari 3 beta. Even if the final release is more polished and completely bug-free, it still won't be as powerful or feature-loaded as Opera or Firefox.'"
Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Missing the point (Score:5, Interesting)
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still loading, so I switched to Safari and posted this. Hopefully FF will finished soon.
Any day now....
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What I was going to do is just test out Safari, see how it was, and then just go back to Firefox after a day or so. That was 4 months ago and I haven't looked back.
It's very fast...very stable, and works very well with the rest of the OS. I've
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Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
$ telnet slashdot.org 80
...
GET / HTTP/1.0
Host: 127.0.0.1
Human parsing FTW! :-p
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Watch out for XSS vulnerabilities. Someone might hack into your girlfriend.
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That's won't work since he uses Linux.
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Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
Sometimes the fox would lose the bit, that was a dropped bit. We had a lot of dropped bitsback then. And man in the middle attacks, those danged nobles liked to hunt our foxes and take our bits for themselves. We quickly learned not to send coins as bits, as those financial transactions were always targets of those horse riding hackers.
All that foxing back and forth was great high tech stuff, though. It meant that we could find out what happened to the hero in our latest serial we were following. Stories over fox took a while to load, but no longer than a torrent does now days... about two weeks to the chapter.
Then some smarty came up with a bit bag, which we could put several bits in at a time, and send the whole packet with the fox. Then packet loss became a bigger problem, but bit loss pretty much disappeared.
You kids now days with your quality of service and TCP/IP. You don't know how good you have it!
Now get off'n my lawn!
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We had to slingshot the bits, but since there was no way to know if you got a zero, we had to paint the bits first. Red was 1, blue was 0.
A clever way we increased throughput was to use a repetition code, so each volley would have about 5 of the same bit. It was tiring to do, though, and a lot of bits were wasted when they hit trees.
Re:Pshhh... (Score:4, Insightful)
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1068/jtor5gjn8
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Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
So that's what the blink tag was for...
Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Pshhh... (Score:5, Informative)
HTML itself is a newcomer to the scene. What, you don't remember using Archie or Veronica to browse around? Noob.
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Is he kidding? (Score:5, Funny)
This is the first Safari with Windows (Score:5, Funny)
Firefox? Safari? IE? (Score:5, Funny)
Bonus points for running the javascript in your head.
Horrid UI (Score:5, Insightful)
It is ridiculous how many vendors insist on ignoring platform conventions for no good reason whatsoever. Why does every application have to have a God complex and say, "I'm so great, I'll put shortcuts in your start menu, quick launch, two tray icons (including an autoupdater) and now I have a custom UI so I look special." Whatever happened to programs just doing their job in an unobtrusive manner?
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Re:Horrid UI (Score:5, Insightful)
Though, if you look at it as the iPhone SDK instead, some of the choices make sense. You'd want to (for example) use the same anti-aliasing mechanism and widgets as the target device so that you know you're seeing things as they will look when deployed.
I don't plan on using Safari as my primary browser, but for compatibility testing websites, the fact that it isn't using a different Windows-specific rendering style makes it valuable for that role.
Re:Horrid UI (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Horrid UI (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Horrid UI (Score:4, Insightful)
neither does Apple.
Re:Horrid UI (Score:5, Insightful)
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But yeah, the UI of both IE7 and Safari is way out there. An example is that the Safari-window can't be resized by any other means than using the lower right corner, instead of all corners or sides for regular windows.
Re:Horrid UI (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Horrid UI (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft does it with every release of Office, and nobody seems to care, either. And Microsoft is no less firm than Apple in saying that people designing for their platform should follow their conventions, even though Microsoft itself doesn't in its big moneymaking software packages.
Since I would assume the point of Apple releasing Safari for Windows is either to promote Mac OS X or as a wedge to get people into the Apple style of application to prepare the way for a broader suite of Apple-on-Windows software (or both), I'm not at all surprised that they have not adapted it to the platform UI standards, since the idea is to change expectations, not follow them.
Whether it succeeds or not is still up in the air, but it wouldn't make any sense for them to go any other way given what clearly seems to be their goal.
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It astounds me that Apple flips the bird to all of the Windows UI conventions for marketing purposes and nobody seems to care. Everything from their own anti-aliasing algorithm for text, their own custom widgets...
The stated purpose of Safari on Windows is to give web developers a chance to preview their sites in the browser that the iPhone uses.
How, precisely, do you imagine that such previewing would work if Safari on Windows didn't use the bloody the rendering algorithms and widgets the iPhone will be using? Safari uses different button and form elements on Macs and iPhones, so for Safari on Windows to be the least bit useful for its stated purpose, it has to use those widgets on Windows. Ditto the text r
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I know a designer that will be very happy about this. He complains constantly about how Microsoft render fonts compared to his Mac. I haven't played Safari to say I hate the font rendering. It seems fine on my monitor. So I am not too upset about that fonts yet.
I agree that Safari is jarring. It looks totally out of place on my windows box but I could live with t
Microsoft Office (Score:3, Insightful)
I feel the same way with every new version of Office.
I have a similar reaction to iTunes. (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to be on the bubble about switching; iTunes pushed me away from Apple instead of encouraging me to make the leap. I still use it, because the Music Store itself is perfect for my needs, but I'm not surprised to hear that Safari is a poor effort.
If Apple wants to encourage people to switch, perhaps it should make some its better applications available, at least in a limited form. I love Dashboard and Expose (I think those are the right names), and simple commercial versions of those for the Windows environment might convince people to try an OS with better, smoother versions of those features built in.
The reason Safari is on Windows... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's to act as a development vehicle for iPhone, since all third party iPhone apps will be rich Web 2.0/AJAX applications.
On this topic, such applications can indeed have the look and feel of iPhone applications, and have access to all iPhone internal services, such as phone dialing, access to maps functionality, and any other iPhone services.
This isn't just, "Oh, let's bring out Safari for Windows for the hell of it, and let people see how good of a browser it is, and maybe they'll buy a Mac!"
This is the "SDK" for iPhone.
And here's an example... (Score:3, Informative)
While it might be disappointing that there isn't a true iPhone SDK that lets developers write native apps to OS X/iPhone frameworks, 1.) "Web 2.0"/AJAX applications can be advanced in functionality, and still have access to all of iPhone's services, and 2.) it's not written in stone that there will NEVER be an iPhone SDK or some mechanism or process for adding native applications to iPhone. But the above app is just a quick and dirty example of what can be done
Re:The reason Safari is on Windows... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. In addition, they might be hoping to make some money from search results, in the same way the Mozilla Foundation does:
"It's not widely publicized, but those integrated search bars in web browser toolbars are revenue generators. When you do a Google search from Safari's toolbar, Google pays Apple a portion of the ad revenue from the resulting page. (Ever notice the "client=safari" string in the URL query?)" - source [daringfireball.net]
This suggestion seems to be confirmed by the behavior I noticed: when you try to create a bookmark to google.com, or even to set it as your homepage. It'll popup a window asking you whether you really want to set google as your homepage (or bookmark it), as "you can already use the search bar to search google anyway".
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I don't call Google Maps a "Mac application" when it's running in Safari on OS X..
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It doesn't hurt that it might increase Safari's market share. This helps ease checking pages in Safari, not having a Mac is no longer an excuse for not testing for it.
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Am I the only person that's terrified by the idea of allowing web browser apps to start dialling people? I really hope they get the security model correct.
Also for web developers (Score:3, Interesting)
If Windows-based Web developers can use Safari, they can either develop to standards and hack for IE bette
Who says it's about making Windows converts? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe I stand alone on this, but when I first read about the Safari 3 launch for Windows, my 1st thought was "Cool, finally Windows based web developers can test against Safari". It never once crossed my mind that it would be something that would woo Joe Sixpack or even get much attention at all from the mainstream Windows user base.
Considering the only times I have issues with having Safari as my primary browser is with heavy AJAX stuff, getting the browser in front of developers seems a logical step to improve the existing Safari users experience.
Perhaps we can finally see an AJAX HTML/TEXT editor that works in Safari with version 3's new features and Windows support.
So hey Ars, Safaris appearance on the Windows platform has a definite value. Just not in the obvious ways you're thinking of.
Audience (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree. Unless Safari manages some magical plug-i compatibility with Firefox, it is unlikely to ever be as feature-loaded as Opera or Firefox. don't think Apple is aiming at "feature loaded" so much as "better for normal users." Most users don't care if they can create granular block lists and flip javascript on and off quickly, because most users don't do those things. Safari seems to be aiming at the crowd who wants simple and fast. As for power, well that all depends upon your needs and workflow. Maybe I need to have really easy access to a grammar checker, but I don't know squat about configuring computer programs. With Safari, it "just works" (or does it, on the OS X version it does, not sure about Windows). A real world example of power is taking screenshots of Web UIs. This is something I have to do now and again. In the past, I've used OmniWeb because it allowed me to recode the pages on the fly easily, so I could fudge the sizes of text boxes and eliminate useless whitespace (thereby making a clearer, larger image). With Safari 3, I can just drag those text boxes to the size I want, which is more powerful yet and more usable.
For other workflows, I'm sure Firefox or Opera is more powerful. Apple is aiming at the bulk of users, instead of at all users. I don't now if such an approach will work though, on Windows. The average person on Windows doesn't know anything about browsers and will never download Safari, so unless Apple has a way to get it onto desktops, their seeming target audience and likely target audience are quite different.
Safari 3.0 beta in Windows ... my experience (Score:5, Informative)
For a very first attempt releasing the browser for Windows, it's ok, in my opinion. You have to start somewhere... But right now, no - it's not exactly going to win a lot of users over from Firefox or even IE.
The ability to drag a tab out to form a new window is pretty slick, but of questionable usefulness most of the time. Faster rendering and launching of Java applets is always a plus, but just like Ars concluded, it's not important relative to stability and compatibility.
I was able to crash Safari on several occasions just by doing things like hitting the "back" button a couple times after submitting a form on a page and getting dialog boxes popping up asking if I was sure I wanted to re-submit it. I haven't tried it yet myself, but I've also read that it has some bugs with printing multiple pages to a printer if you tell it to start anywhere but on page 1.
I didn't think Safari's text rendering looked quite as "crisp" or easy to read as Firefox or IE does in Windows either. (On a Mac, it looks fine to me, by comparison.)
All in all though, I don't see why anyone would think this release is a "bad" thing? It's free, for starters - and it allows a hard-core Safari-using Mac owner to feel very comfortable if he/she has to browse on a Windows box on occasion. It surely needs testers to keep reporting bugs in it, so it can be improved. But by the time it gets to a release version and out of beta, I think it has potential to be at least another solid, free browser choice for Windows -- if not really a "superior" one.
Missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
That isn't surprising, because it doesn't seem like "feature-loaded" was Apple's goal (is it ever?). There's probably a market for a fast and safe(r) browser to replace IE. You might say that Opera fits this bill quite well, but Apple's marketing will mean that less technical users will hear about Apple's new Windows browser. Apple has never been about including tons of features; they've always seemed to include the most popular features and add some UI polish (which doesn't fit in very well with Windows, IMO).
That being said, I was personally a little surprised by this announcement. iTunes allows iPods and the iTMS to work on Windows, hugely expanding the available market. Quicktime means that videos can be viewed on most computers. What does Safari mean? If a website is designed to work with Firefox, it'll probably work with Safari. Do they care enough to have websites start saying, "Please upgrade to IE v. X, Firefox v. Y, or Safari v. Z to view this site properly"?
When Safari comes out of beta, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Safari + iTunes + Quicktime bundle as one (default) download when you visit Apple's site.
Buggy Even on the Mac (Score:4, Interesting)
How Is this Perspective "Interesting"? (Score:3, Funny)
Based on all the server logs I look at, just about everyone is someone new to Safari.
I will use it (Score:3, Insightful)
It doesn't have to be a killer app. It's just another option, and I think it's fairly obvious that it's to assist people who want to develop applications that are likely to work on the iPhone.
Further evidence indicates it may have come to the point where so much of Safari was already included in iTMS support in iTunes that they "may as well" release the whole browser, and see how people react.
I find it endlessly amusing how Slashdot is repeatedly posting Apple bashing articles since WWDC. It looks like Jobs spit on taco's car or something. There has to be some kind of grudge here. And as for the rest of you, why do you complain about a free product like this? Are you Apple investors or something?
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the reason why whenever people ask me what cross platform toolkit they should use I say: none. Write a GUI for each platform you want to support and use a common backend.. that way you are more likely to write a GUI that is suitable for the platform.
Of course, when they insist, I suggest they use Qt.
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:4, Insightful)
And, for that matter, Office 2007. I'm using the Safari beta at home, alongside Firefox. Yeah, it doesn't follow some windows conventions. Some of the defaults seem like odd choices (the statusbar defaults to not being displayed, for instance.)
But its certainly usable, and it has a lot of nice little nifties compared to other browsers: highlighting active fields is very nice. And the page loading speed isn't a small improvement, either. Bonjour is interesting, too, though many home users probably won't notice it or get much use out of it. I'm not sure I'm going to switch over to Safari as may main windows browser, but its certainly got my interest.
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:5, Informative)
This is the reason why whenever people ask me what cross platform toolkit they should use I say: none. Write a GUI for each platform you want to support and use a common backend.. that way you are more likely to write a GUI that is suitable for the platform.
Of course, when they insist, I suggest they use Qt.
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Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a Mac user and a huge fan of Apple's, but I completely agree that's bad.
One of the most frustrating things about using Firefox in OS X is that it looks and feels horribly wrong because it ignors most Mac conventions*.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I was prepared to call the article FUD before reading it... but then I noticed that it's Ars so I read it, and not only do the complaints seem valid, I don't even understand what Apple was thinking with some of the issues. For example, porting the OS X antialiasing over to Windows rather than using the native ClearType just seems weird (almost to the extent that I don't believe Ars Technica).
*Yes, I know about Camino [caminobrowser.org], but that doesn't diminish my point.
Sub-pixel rendering compared (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:5, Insightful)
If the OS X style anti-aliasing is what is used on the iPhone, then it makes perfect sense.
As some others have already pointed out, the entire point of Safari for Windows is iPhone development, not necessarily winning over converts.
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What are the Windows conventions? Having used Windows since 3.1, I can't tell what the conventions are. Every app breaks them. The behavior when highlighting text varies from app to app. Some apps seem to want to help you by forcing you into highlighting entire words, even when you don't want that. IE7 actually hides the menus until you hit the Alt key. Have you seen Office2007 at all? The "/" to search in F
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Safari uses its own custom font rendering, so doesn't integrate with Windows font settings, and all the dialogs and dialog controls look like OS X - seriously, try running Safari. It doesn't look like a Windows app at all. Buttons are luminous blue and curved, etc. Some dialogs slide out from underneath the title bar when they appear.
Precisely the kind of thing Mac users lambasted Microsoft for with Office 6, iirc.
Still, at least it maximises when you double-click the title bar, which is more than iT
Re:Review summary: "It's not the same as FireFox" (Score:5, Interesting)
Come on; it's shocking as a Mac user to see all you Windows guys suddenly defending Safari now that it's available on your PC's. A lot of Mac users hate Safari. Many of us use Firefox.
Safari on Mac doesn't follow Mac conventions either. It just received its first update in like a year, and it doesn't seem to have helped much. Safari:Mac = IE:Windows. We feel pretty much the same way about it.
I use Safari on Mac only to test; that's about all it's good for, but its rendering engine always makes things look significantly different than any other browser so, like IE, as a designer you kind of just have to accept its quirks. I run Firefox as my primary browser on both Mac and PC.
btw, I did try Safari on Windows. The first time I opened more than 10 tabs simultaneously, it froze. Yes, it's a beta, but a pretty unusable one if it fails at its basic core function.
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Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Mac users like myself don't pick Safari because it's made by Apple. They use it because it comes preinstalled, integrates very well with the OS, and doesn't have enough significant issues to deter its use.
Re:Oh really? (Score:4, Insightful)
So is your objection to IE the fact that it's bundled with Windows, making it the default browser over FF or Opera, or that it's bug-filled? And if it is the former, but it is different because "Microsoft is a monopoly," how is Apple using a similar position to become the dominant OS X browser morally or ethically (not legally) different?
Disclaimer: I think that bundling both Safari and IE was a breach of some kind of ethos best described as componentization.
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It's installed by default and not easy to remove (safari is easy to uninstall on OSX, and you can choose not to have it when you install the OS)
It's support for web standards is way behind other browsers, and this has resulted in a massive stagnation of the web.
It's a relatively simple and featureless browser in it's default state
The bundling doesnt bother me, so long as its possible to deselect it during install as well as remove it post-install. It should also be possible for third
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I have both Firefox, and Camino available on my Mac, at the simple press of CMD+Space, then type "fire" or "cami" respectively. However, I still use Safari. Why? Because Safari does just about everything I need. Why do I have FF and Camino available? Well, one of my banks doesn't think that I should be able to use
Does this help? (Score:3, Informative)
Fri, Jun 8 '07 at 7:30AM PDT Submitted by gand macosxhints.com
I like to have more than one Gmail account open at the same time. As you can't have more than one in the same browser, I use Firefox's ProfileManager flag to manage one profile for each Gmail account. Type in terminal:
https://mail.google.com/mail/ [google.com]
The first time you do this, you'll create a new profile, one for each of your Gmail accounts. La
Re:Safari, and Mac OS X, are better. (Score:5, Funny)
one faith, one land, one volk, one fuhrer!! zeig heil!
Does it come with a brown shirt?
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Come October, Mac OS X will serve everyone with one price, one version, one install: one vision of simple 64-bit desktop goodness.
one faith, one land, one volk, one fuhrer!! zeig heil!
I was thinking "and one ring to bind them"
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No, but it does come with a black turtleneck.
Re:Safari has some problems with tags (Score:5, Insightful)
You are almost exactly wrong (Score:5, Informative)
The main reason MS fonts look lighter is that Cleartype renders to pixel boundaries - if the font would naturally go over a pixel boundary when anti-aliased, Cleartype does not render that. The fonts end up looking "lighter" on screen because of it. Apple don't do that. As far as I know, It has nothing to do with colour and black & white.
The upshot is that MS text appears lighter (they even designed fonts to match their rendering philosophy) than Apple text under most circumstances. It also means that the print output on a Mac looks very similar to the displayed output, whereas printing an MS document can make it look a lot "heavier" because the rendering on print is different from the rendering on display.
As for 'proprietary', both rendering engines are 'proprietary'. I don't see why you call one that, and not the other.
Simon
Re:less bugs is always good (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:*WHOOOOOSH* (Score:4, Insightful)
The only experience with Apple software I can think of at the moment is Quicktime. The word "elegant" does not come to mind.
Re:*WHOOOOOSH* (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. Nobody else seems to have grasped the irony of complaining that a browser is not as "powerful or feature-loaded as Firefox". Wasn't the original design goal of Firefox to be minimalist and fast? Any reviewer who thinks Firefox is great because of its power and feature set comes across as a bit of a noob.
FWIW, I use Firefox and Mozilla every day for web development, so I appreciate its power and feature set. However, I use Safari to Just Plain Browse, so then again I don't.
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Itunes since version 4 has been a beast on windows, I had switched to it (from Winamp) because it honestly seemed the best music player, but its got bigger, slower and more encumbered since version 4 was released. I'm actually using windows media player 11 right now because it provides me with the features I want in a music player (sync music to phone), its quick and handles all media.
For a user who doesn't care about features IE7 (which is being pushed in the windows world) is a great bro
MediaMonkey (Score:3, Insightful)
I *tried* to use iTunes once also but find it really horrible. I felt as if I just cant do anything with my music library, i
Re:*WHOOOOOSH* (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not the point (Score:4, Funny)
Also, how everyone mewling about how buggy and unfinished it is... HELLO! It's a first release BETA, of course it's unfinished!
Some people... jeez, if Apple released a handheld cure for cancer, they'd complain that it only came in a brushed metal case.
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Um, the CEO of Apple...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/12/apple_brow ser_war_safari_firefox/ [theregister.co.uk]
I'm amazed at how many people are protecting this current joke of a browser.
Its not just got less features, its not just different to firefox, its not just beta issues, its a mess. Even the simplist things don't render well in it, (Check the register for more info.) it crashes constantly, its got more se
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As for the rest, Safari works very well on Mac - much better than Firefox in some areas, slightly worse in others. I expect it to improve on Windows as well.
Re:Meh, Safari (Score:5, Insightful)
Safari is not based on Konqueror. Konqueror is a fairly generic application for running plugins. One plugin is KHTML, which is used for web browsing. WebKit, used by Safari, is based on KHTML.
Apple evaluated Gecko. They even hired Dave Hyatt to lead the Safari team. If you're not familiar with Dave's other work he:
What it tells you. (Score:3, Insightful)
In spite of his obvious and heavy bias towards Gecko, he chose KHTML. That should tell you something about the quality of the Gecko codebase.
What it tells me is that KHTML was better suited to the task. Without knowing more about programming for OSX, I can't tell you more than that other than both Gecko and KHTML could have done the job.
Konqueror has spoiled me. KIOslaves rock. Nothing comes close to it in terms of a unified desktop experience.
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Dave Hyatt.
Re:Safari is requesting a page to be loaded... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Safari works better on MacOS X (Score:4, Insightful)
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If you think the iPod was successful besides anything but marketing, you are mind-f**king yourself.
Pick up a Creative Zen Vision M, cheaper, more colors, more features, supports all audio/video formats so you dont' have to convert everything you drop on it, etc.
The Zen hits the 80/20 rule better than the iPod, as the Zen doesn't force iTunes down your throat,
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A lie.
Well I owned both, did the whole Indy flight for ordering one of the first Vipers, etc.
Go look up AERODYNAMICS, and how the lack of aerodynamic design gave the performance edge to the Corvette and especially the ZR1 Corvette in comparison to the Viper. Al
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Actually this is a thought that still goes through my head.
Apple basically told their entire customer base that the users were TOO STUPID to use a mouse with more than one button, and every Mac Fanboi rushed out to agre
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Pass [wikipedia.org] the Acid2 [webstandards.org] test?