New Zealand Rejects Office For Macs

An anonymous reader writes "The New Zealand Ministry of Education has declined to renew a licensing deal for MS Office on 25,000 Macintosh computers in the country's schools. The Education Minister has suggested that schools use the free alternative NeoOffice. The article quotes a school principal who pointed out that the NeoOffice website warns users to expect problems and bugs: 'That's not the sort of software we should be expecting kids in New Zealand to be using.'" Schools are free to buy their own copies of Office. A blog on the New Zealand Herald site argues that the Ministry should have paid Microsoft this time, but not renewed the deal and instead developed a transition plan to open source.

Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[Ohreally_factor]

How about, expect problems and bugs with any software?

MS Office has plenty of bugs too...

[baptiste]

The article quotes a school principal who pointed out that the NeoOffice website warns users to expect problems and bugs: 'That's not the sort of software we should be expecting kids in New Zealand to be using.'

Just because Microsoft doesn't include this disclaimer on their website doesn't make MS Office any less buggy. This guy's students have been using buggy software their whole lives, from MS and others. Welcome to the information age. At least NeoOffice is being upfront about it.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[rucs_hack]

That's the trouble Open Source gets from being honest. Microsoft just hides the bugs and creates an illusion of problem free computer usage. Then they insist you keep windows update running all the time....

In this case I think the fast transition will cause grumbles, but then again, if they waited the MSN (Microsoft Sales Ninjas) would be inbound, and before they knew it everyone would be parrotting the microsoft literature and the switch would be forgotten.

Death Knell

[ehaggis]

Unfortunately the Ministry of Education has probably signed a death warrant for the adoption of an open source office package. Without planning, forethought, notice and buy-in, most projects will die on the branch. This is a poor introduction for many to open source software and will leave a sour taste.

It'll do the job.

[LaminatorX]

I wouldn't trust NeoOffice to seamlessly handle a giant shared/published spreadsheet with lots of custom macros for dozens of users across a multi-office corporate WAN. OTOH, I'd trust it without hesitation to do anything a k-12 teacher or student would need to do with it.

Re:Death Knell

[montyzooooma]

Agreed. I set up NeoOffice for my dad to use on his Mac Mini and it's fine for what he uses it for. But in a school environment you'll run across hundreds of teachers who simply don't want to re-learn how to use a word-processor. Somebody saw all these "Enterprise X switched to opensource and saved a bundle" stories and decided to jump on the bandwagon without implementing a proper plan.

NeoOffice is a good alternative for education

[bestinshow]

I've been pleasantly surprised by the speed of NeoOffice 2.1 + the latest patch.

It starts up almost immediately on a 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo iMac.

Previous versions take ages to start up.

They've also improved the GUI appearance no end from the primitive OpenOffice look and feel which is stuck in the mid 90s.

This is a perfect solution for education as it will handle all educational needs without a problem, and save the education authority and schools a lot of money. This is a sound business decision for education.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[suv4x4]

That's the trouble Open Source gets from being honest. Microsoft just hides the bugs and creates an illusion of problem free computer usage. Then they insist you keep windows update running all the time....


You know, I'm surprised at the Orwellian speak coming from both the likes of Microsoft and the anti-Microsoft crowd.

We don't have Microsoft just "fixing bugs", oh no. We have Microsoft "HIDING bugs and creating the ILLUSION of problem free computer usage".

How on Earth do you create the *illusion* of problem free computer usage? You let Word crash and popup a box "Calm down user, this was just a part of your problem free computer usage"?

Office works fine enough, the sad part in all of this, is they don't have good enough competitors, because they have stagnated for years and years.

Then Office 2007 which offered lots of innovation in the interface, features, wizard etc. But why? Is it because Open Source was picking up and MS Office were terrible at "hiding bugs"? No, it's because people just got stuck with Office 97: Microsoft's competing with their own software.

It's sad.

What about Apple's own software?

[starseeker]

If they don't want to fight it out with NeoOffice (no idea how hard that would be, I haven't used it) why not just work with AppleWorks? I assume Apple would be reasonable, since they are not the 800lb gorilla - and they have to know getting it used in Education could only help them. (Plus, they would want to keep the Macs there as well, and I'm sure someone will eventually suggest converting to all Windows PCs as a cost savings and getting Office everywhere...)

I mean, this IS education we're talking about here. Their needs should be fairly basic - if not I would be suspicious of their teaching methods. If it were up to me I would build plans on AppleWorks but also introduce students to NeoOffice. Using both would force them to develop flexibility and the ability to learn new software. It is something they will need to do for the rest of their lives.

Teach Concepts, Not Apps

[EzInKy]

I don't understand why schools let themselves get enslaved by proprietary software when kids could learn a whole lot more by experimenting with different solutions to problems.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[Khuffie]

So you're basing your judgement on Office and Windows circa 10 years ago?

Re:Silly principal....

[UnknowingFool]

I wouldn't say that MS is lying, just not actively disclosing that fact. It's just a reality that all software has issues and bugs. Unless you've been living under a rock, you would know that MS software also has serious security issues too. It's more like two different salesmen when you ask about the fuel economy of a car. Both will quote the correct figure but one of them may disclaim that the number may not reflect real world driving conditions. Unfortunately some people will get upset with the later as it shatters their insular view of things.

Re:Death Knell

[bogidu]

Shouldn't be much of a problem since the article clearly stated that teachers and staff would not be affected, they were only taking it away from the students.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[MrNaz]

It's times like this that a "-1 Ignoramus" mod option would be useful. The most cursory of cursory brief glances at the first link in the summary would have told you that NeoOffice is an OpenOffice based product with a few Mac extra goodies. I bet you won't even read this reply, though so I don't know why I bothered.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[morgan_greywolf]

Maybe that's true, but they also feel that NeoOffice is stable enough for everyday use. From the front page:

Released as free, open source software under the GNU General Public License (GPL), NeoOffice is fully functional and stable enough for everyday use. The software is actively developed, so improvements and small updates are made available on a regular basis.

also the same FAQ says:

NeoOffice is a reasonably stable version of the OpenOffice.org office suite that has been engineered to run natively on Mac OS

I've not used NeoOffice, but to me, this sounds like the software is in the stage Firefox was in just before hitting 1.0 -- stable enough for everyday use; maybe there are a few bugs, but they get fixed quickly so downloading the latest release is usually a good idea before filing a bug report.

Re:Death Knell

[TheRaven64]

My mother was a primary school teacher until she retired recently, and had no problem using OpenOffice at home and MS Office at school (or, to be more accurate, the same problems using both). Schools are very light on the features they need from an office suite. Even an old version of AppleWorks would probably be okay for them.

Surely it doesn't mean delete MS Office

[simong]

It just means that ac.nz won't be buying Office Mac 2008 (or whatever the next version for Mac is) and rolling out NeoOffice on new machines. I have to admit that I'm not a big office app user but I use NeoOffice on my Macs at home and the speed and stability improvements on version 2 and the regular patching regime have made it very usable, and it will be difficult for a native port of OpenOffice to OS X to catch up. I only hope that the NZ government will see their way to giving a tenth of their licensing costs for MS Office to Neooffice.org. It might stop them worrying about money so much.

Re:what exaggeration exactly ..

[bhima]

It was their "don't whine at us if you have a problem, we are only developers" disclaimer.

I don't remember it exactly but it was blunt, over the top, and probably unnecessary.

Emacs!? When I comment that OOO.org, MS Office, and NeoOffice are so feature rich that they are too complicated for kids to bother with, you come up with Emacs? Let me tell you no child of mine is using Emacs! They'll being using VI!

Wow... I wonder when the last time there has been an Emacs VI flame around here...

Seriously though my daughter puts all kinds of graphics and fonts in her schoolwork. She'd mutiny at the suggestion of Emacs, VI, or any of the other old text editors.

The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong!

[SplatMan_DK]

I think it is a good thing that they will attempt to make a switch to NeoOffice. But sadly it is for the wrong reasons!

In reality, it seems like the Education Minister is just being plain old-fashioned cheap.

If they were serious about using NeoOffice/OpenOffice, but have concerns about the stability of the software, they should consider contributing to the project. There are tons of ways an Education minister can make that happen. He could encourage the IT related universities in his country to make projects that contribute to the products. He could donate cash to the NeoOffice and/or OpenOffice teams - say a mere 5% of the money they would otherwise have spent on commercial licenses? Or he could have contracted a local software company to improve (contribute) to the software for a specified amount.

Open and free software is good. But choosing it simply because the initial price tag is low (read: nil) is a bad motivation - especially for an Education Minister. And it doesen't really help the product or the community either.

An Open Source product is only as strong as its ACTIVE contributors.

Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining.

[jalefkowit]

You can't win with Teachers.

I think you mean "you can't win with people". In any sufficiently large population, there's going to be a few people who are dramatically more predisposed to griping and/or are dramatically less adaptive to change than the average person. So if it's any consolation, you'd have had to deal with the same idiots no matter what industry you worked in ;-)

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[El Lobo]

Great example.Both of them are produced by hardhare problems. The same problem in Linuzz would cause a Kernel panic. Not, not blue, but BLACK..

Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining.

[_LORAX_]

You can't win with Teachers.

I think you mean "you can't win with people".

Obviously you have never worked in a school with teachers. The easiest way to describe it is a dysfunctional company run democratically by it's employees.

Re:The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong!

[Domstersch]

Here's a hint as to why this won't happen: it's not the Minister of Education's job to spend my (yep, I'm a kiwi) tax money on helping "the product or the community". But do you know what is his job? To ensure that children in my country get the best education they can. And that means that when he has the choice of donating money to a software development group or spending it on one of the underfunded schools throughout the country, he must spend it on the kids.

You hear the "somebody, think of the children" argument a lot these days. But this is one case where it applies well. It is Maharey's job to think of the children. And they are best served by using the money elsewhere.

Or new zealand, could...

[WindBourne]

hire several coders and help out on this. It keeps the money local and is still cheaper.

Re:Death Knell

[Chuq]

But in a school environment you'll run across hundreds of teachers who simply don't want to re-learn how to use a word-processor.

That's funny, when I was at school I was taught on ClarisWorks on Apples and Win3.1 at school, and used MS Word 5 on DOS at home. Now I used MS Office 2k/2003 on XP at work and OpenOffice.org on XP/Ubuntu at home. I thought learning how to use a computer meant just that - learning how to use a computer, not learning how to use Microsoft software.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[jimstapleton]

I've seen Windows run flawlessly on machines that Linux isn't even borderline stable one.
I've seen Linux run flawlessly on machines Windows isn't even borderline stable one.

The fact of the matter is, there's a lot that stability depends upon, and even slightly different circumstances can lead to vastly different results.

In my personal experience, outside of really cheap computers, I've not had any stability issues with Windows. The exception being a computer with a SiL 2114 SATA controler, and using an IDE hard drive fixed that problem (Linux wouldn't even boot on that machine). I narrowed it down to the controller because all other machines tested work fine with the same SATA drives tested, and that machine runs fine with just IDE drives.

But I'm getting off track here. The point is that there is no "single" answer to achieving high stability, except putting in the effort to determine which (A) works with what (B), and some trial & error.

Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining.

[bkr1_2k]

My question is why purchase Office 2007 if you migrated all those other computers to OpenOffice? why not give the few who were bitching older copies of Office 2003 or whatever and leave the remaining (happy) users on OO?

Re:The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong!

[SplatMan_DK]

You seem to totally miss the point. And I believe you have misunderstood the very foundation of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS).

By using free OpenSource software the minister is saving a shitload of money. Money he would otherwise have to use on commercial software licenses. The only reason he even has the option to save this huge pile of money, is because a lot of other people already donated work, money and resources.

By taking/using the product without contributing anything at all, he and all the schools are guilty of leeching on an otherwise honest and productive community.

If everybody just took the free software without contributing anything, the minister would end up with only the commercial alternative. Contributing to Open Source community is his way of securing that option for the future (as others did before him), and at the same time ensuring continued development of the products that he and his schools now depend on.

You stated:

You hear the "somebody, think of the children" argument a lot these days. But this is one case where it applies well. It is Maharey's job to think of the children. And they are best served by using the money elsewhere.

The best way to ensure that the children and the schools in your country will continue to have a cheap and decent alternative to expensive commercial products is to make a small contribution. He will not be looking after the children's interests if his actions eventually lead to the termination of open source products used in your schools.

I think that contributing 5% of what he otherwise would have been forced to pay for commercial licenses would be a very fine solution. Not to mention a very cheap solution compared to the alternatives. And it would absolutely be beneficial for the children because it would ensure continued development and increased stability of the product he suggests using. Is it that hard to understand the connection?

In addition, one of the alternatives I mentioned was all free in terms of cache: Encourage the universities to make projects and contributions as part of the normal education plan. It would benefit the FOSS project, it is totally free of charge, and very easy to integrate into the normal university education. You seem to ignore that option in your reply.

It is unwise (not to say outright plain stupid) to rely on FOSS without making at least a minor contribution.

I am not saying every soul who downloads NeoOffice or OpenOffice should pay for it. I am saying that a Minister of Education is in a position where simply leeching on the work of others, and being dependant of their goodwill without returning any favors, is a little... shortsighted...

:-)

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[Lockejaw]

If it's something that rears its head only when there's bad hardware, then Linux must be a magical operating system that can turn bad hardware into good.

"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence!"
-- Dijkstra

The fact that it hasn't failed yet doesn't mean it won't, even if operating conditions remain pretty much the same. Computers are magical like that.

Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software?

[tehcyder]

If you're trying to suggest BSODs are a thing of the past

No, I think the GP was referring to the use of the now seldom-heard phrase "floppy disk".

Re:I use NeoOffice to work around MS Office bugs

[repetty]

Yep. I've used OpenOffice to access documents that crash Microsoft Office applications, too. These are good tools to keep around for this reason alone.

--Richard