Many Dead In Virginia Tech Shooting 2661
nexuspal writes "Over 20 confirmed dead at Virginia Tech. Shooter killed some at residence hall then two hours later killed others in classrooms. Worst school shooting in US history. "
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Many Dead In Virginia Tech Shooting
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"More software projects have gone awry for lack of calendar time than for all other causes combined." -- Fred Brooks, Jr., _The Mythical Man Month_
31 dead, 20 wounded. (Score:5, Informative)
Checked in with people I knew as best I could. (Score:5, Informative)
From what I heard they put all schools in the county into lockdown when the attack was detected - not just college campuses. The gunman is apparently dead, but obviously everyone is extremely nervous.
Apparently the campus had had bomb threats in the last two weeks. No idea if they're connected:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/ [msn.com]
My thoughts are with the lost and their loved ones.
Re:Go go Jack Thompson (Score:5, Informative)
Re:slashdot? (Score:4, Informative)
This whole incident makes me sick to my stomach, and my thoughts/prayers go out to the families and victims.
Re:Gaming (Score:5, Informative)
Untrue! (Score:2, Informative)
Worst school shooting in American history. So far this body count hasn't even reached the top 3 spree killings in history, all of which fyi weren't inside the USA. Wikipedia also has a disturbing play-by-play of the Australian Port Arthur massacre that is truly horrifying to read.
Re:Get ready... (Score:5, Informative)
10. Fireworks/Explosives/Hazardous Chemicals/Weapons
Unauthorized possession or use of fireworks, explosives, or weapons is prohibited. Hazardous chemicals that could pose a health risk are also prohibited from the campus, including chemicals that, when combined with other substances, could be hazardous or present a danger to others.
Unauthorized possession, storage (in vehicles on campus as well as in the residence halls), or control of firearms and weapons on university property is prohibited. (NOTE: Organizational weapons of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets, approved by the commandant, are not prohibited by this policy.) Firearms are defined as any gun, rifle, pistol, or handgun designed to fire bullets, BBs, pellets, or shots (including paint balls), regardless of the propellant used. Other weapons are defined as any instrument of combat or any object not designed as an instrument of combat but carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury. Examples include (but are not limited to) knives with fixed blades or pocket knives with blades longer than four inches, razors, metal knuckles, blackjacks, hatchets, bows and arrows, nun chahkas, foils, or any explosive or incendiary device. Possession of realistic replicas of weapons on campus is prohibited. Students who store weapons in residence hall rooms, who brandish weapons, or who use a weapon in a reckless manner may face disciplinary action which may include suspension or dismissal from the university.
Refer to Section V.W. for additional information about Weapons.
Re:Get ready... (Score:4, Informative)
Republicans call for Guns in classrooms (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Engineering building (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Second Amendment Rights (Score:3, Informative)
Just to fill everybody in, the campus is designated a "gun-free zone." There was a state bill last year to change this [roanoke.com], but it didn't make it out of subcommittee.
Of course, in all likelihood, we'll end up seeing even more restrictions that feel good but end up in more people being hurt. There have already been talking heads on TV advocating "making university buildings into lock-down prisons, with no classroom windows, and wanding of everyone going in and out." [transterrestrial.com]
Re:University of Texas Tower (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Engineering building (Score:5, Informative)
Virginia Tech policy against firearms on campus (Score:3, Informative)
Does anybody know if Virginia Tech has a policy against firearms on campus?
Gun bill gets shot down by panel
Tuesday, January 31, 2006
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-5065
Re:Federal Sources Cite 31 Dead Now (Score:5, Informative)
Re:31 dead, 20 wounded. (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:University of Texas Tower (Score:3, Informative)
33 confirmed dead (Score:2, Informative)
2 at the first shooting, and 31 at the second shooting.
I used to work at the Inn at Virginia Tech.
Re:Get ready... (Score:3, Informative)
Here you go...
Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement [ssrn.com]
JOHN R. LOTT Jr.
State University of New York - Department of Economics
WILLIAM M. LANDES
University of Chicago Law School; National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER)
Abstract:
Few events obtain the same instant worldwide news coverage as multiple victim public shootings. These crimes allow us to study the alternative methods used to kill a large number of people (e.g., shootings versus bombings), marginal deterrence and the severity of the crime, substitutability of penalties, private versus public methods of deterrence and incapacitation, and whether attacks produce copycats. Yet, economists have not studied this phenomenon. Our results are surprising and dramatic. While arrest or conviction rates and the death penalty reduce normal murder rates, our results find that the only policy factor to influence multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws. We explain why public shootings are more sensitive than other violent crimes to concealed handguns, why the laws reduce both the number of shootings as well as their severity, and why other penalties like executions have differential deterrent effects depending upon the type of murder.
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:5, Informative)
To get a CCP in the vast majority of states you have to show you are proficient in handling a firearm. I can't speak for other states, but the people who can pass a CCP exam aren't the type that will be shooting wildly.
Re:Engineering building (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why are people allowed to possess guns in the U (Score:0, Informative)
If you don't like how it is, I suggest you go back to your country. The US is the most free country in the world, and with those liberties unfortunately come with consequences but in the end it's always better to be free.
Re:Why are people allowed to possess guns in the U (Score:3, Informative)
First, firearms are not banned in this country because the founders of our country believed that everyone should have a reasonable right to defend themselves.
Second, take a look at Japan. Don't you think there are some fundamental differences in Japanese society and culture versus the U.S.? Are swords banned in Japan? I think a sword could do plenty of damage. Are cars legal in Japan? Cars kill infinitely more people than guns every single day.
Murder has nothing to do with the tools used. It is a society problem.
My simple opinion.
I express my deepest sympathies to all those involved at Virginia Tech today.
Re:University of Texas Tower (Score:2, Informative)
Stop being so US-centric (Score:1, Informative)
Germany [cnn.com]
Canada [wikipedia.org]
The Netherlands [expatica.com]
Why do idiots always try to blame the US, like we're the only ones that have problems? I don't care if you get off on the self-hatred bullshit, just leave my country out of it.
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Go go Jack Thompson (Score:5, Informative)
ABC is reporting that it was 2 semi-automatic pistols. Hardly an asrenal.
More examples, and a searchable archive (Score:2, Informative)
Associated Press, 07/21/06
State: TN
Chris Cope said it was "like something in a serial killer movie," at a Memphis, Tenn., shopping center where he manages a financial services office. According to police, a store employee began stabbing co-workers after a work dispute. The attacker had already stabbed eight people and was chasing a ninth when Cope ran to his truck to retrieve his 9 mm pistol. "[The suspect] just kept saying, 'I'm insane. I wish I was never born,' and all that stuff," Cope said. But apparently the crazed man valued his life more than he let on. "When he turned around and saw my pistol, he threw the knife away, put his hands up and got on the ground," Cope said. "He saw my gun and that was pretty much it."
====
Find your own with this searchable archive:
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx [nraila.org]
Re:Go go Jack Thompson (Score:1, Informative)
And the gun nuts will blame the lack of more guns: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=231053&cid=18
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:2, Informative)
How many of you know that the shooting in UT a few months ago was ended by someone with a concealed carry permit? That guy had a shotgun but his death toll didn't top single digits... and we all agree shotgun > handgun.
What I find funny is that everyone spouting off with this line has obviously never had any sort of training or familiarity with their weapons at all. One of the primary rules of the range: Be sure of your target and what is behind it. If I don't think this guy is the nut, I'm not shooting. He'll get a "FREEZE M-Fer!"
That being said, until I knew exactly what was going on, I wouldn't be drawing my weapon anyways sheerly to avoid any other CCW guys jumping the gun (hah!)
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:2, Informative)
The classic example is: "You're walking through a mostly deserted parking garage. A man has a woman pinned to the ground next to a car. What do you do?" Anyone who says, "I shoot him" is told, "The woman assaulted the man, with a gun, and he disarmed her, and was about to call the police. You just shot an innocent man." There are two proper responses, with the amount of information available:
1) find cover, call the cops, and be a good witness.
2) get the hell outta there
Now for statistics - I'm pretty sure it comes form "In the Gravest Extreme", by Massad Ayoob - civilians shoot the right person more often than the police do, when they're involved in a shooting. The police shoot the right person about 70% of the time, whereas civilians get it right about 90%.
Re:Gun toting just esculates things (Score:1, Informative)
48 states have CCW laws in effect and legal CCW has been around since the 80s... yet, where's the bloodbath you are promising? Hasn't happened. Stop spreading anti-gun FUD; if you really want to know how this stuff works, log off and go to a range. Shoot some stuff and take some classes. Learn the real reasons why this isn't a likely scenario instead of spouting off at the mouth like the anti-gun version of SCO or the MAFIAA.
Re:Engineering building (Score:3, Informative)
Therefore, an "oriental" person would be someone of the countries of the East, especially East Asia.
Therefore, the word is correct, so stop your arguing.
Re:land of the free^Wdead (Score:3, Informative)
According to initial reports the shooter was just armed with a couple of 9mm handguns.
Transcript from VT afternoon press conference (Score:5, Informative)
- I am vice president for university relations. We will begin this with a short statement by the president. All of the individuals will be available for comment. The president will identify him in his opening comments. We will stay here as long as you need us to. Afterwards, i will be available for comment. Obviously, there are an awful lot of you and there is one of me. I would recommend that we try to get as much as we can accomplish in this press briefing today.
- Thank you. Just a few minutes ago , i spoke with president bush and he conveyed his concern and condolences for everyone in washington and offered all of the help that they could possibly provide. I' ve also spoken with the governor who was coming back from tokyo. He has declared a state of emergency which allows us to access significant oth er assets at that will be required to do with this tragedy. With me today is the secretary for public service for the commonwealth of virginia, john marshall, and the superintendent for the virginia state police. Also is the mayor of b lacksburg, the chief of the blacksburg police department and the chief of the virginia tech police. I want to repeat my horror and disbelief and profound sorrow at the events of today. People from around the world have expressed their shock and their sorrow. I am really at a loss for words to explain or understand the carnage that has visited our campus. I know no other way to speak about this than to tell you what we now. It is now confirmed that we have at 31 deaths from the norris hall , including the gunman. 15 Other victims are being treated at hospitals. There are two confirmed deaths from the shooting in the dormitory, in addition to those at norris hall. We' ve not confirmed the activity of the gun man because he carried no at the dedication. We are in the process of attempting a dedication identification. We are in the proces s of notifying next of kin. This will take some time. We will not release any names unti l we are positive of this edification. We anticipate being able to release a list sometime tomorrow. We' re asking our students to contact their parents and let them know their status. Our investigation continues into whether there is a connection between the first and second incidents. That has not been decided. We know that the parents will want to embrace their children. We are not suggesting that you come to campus, however, if pa rents feel that it must come to campus, we are locating counselors at the end of virginia tech to be available. As you can imagine, security, investigation, operational, and counseling resources are very taxed at this moment. However, we are getting assistance from the state police, the fbi, the atf, local jurisdictions, and the red cross. We understand the desire and the compelling need to get information on the part of families, stu dents, and loved ones. Unfortunately, this is all of the information that we can verify at this point in time. We are posting information o n our web site as we learned it. I communication systems are taxed . We are posting information on the web site for the state police. I think we are ready to take questions.
- Why not shut down campus after the first shooting rather g -- shooting?
- The information that we have less to make the decision that it was an isolated event to that building and the decision was not made to cancel class' s at that time.
- Can you say why the students were not notified for tw o hours?
- They were notified that there was a shooting. You have to remember that of the 26,000 is that we have, only about 9000 are on campus. When the class start at 9:00 A.M., Thou sands of people are in transit. The question is, where do you keep them when it is most safe? We concluded that the incident at the dormitory was domestic in question. This other events occurred two hours later.
- The first e-mail did not arrive
Re:Gun-toting liberal students (Score:3, Informative)
Uh, how would you know?
How do you know that you haven't been around literally dozens of people just about ready to snap, carrying illegal weapons (or carrying weapons illegally?)
Of course you don't know that. So your statement is nonsense.
The difference is that people in pretty much every nation except for a very limited few are used to being disarmed. In many nations it was actually illegal to own a sword at various points in history. People got used to being disarmed and kept in check then and they're still prepared for it now.
The US is a nation built upon the gun, sometimes positively and sometimes negatively. It was certainly used to greatly horrible affect against the indigenous peoples of both North and South America (not to mention central.) You're simply not going to take that out of culture overnight.
And I might add that events like THIS one do nothing to help the situation.
Of course, it does help to prove the pro-gun point. The police are not there to protect you. Period. Sometimes they protect a single individual or a small group thereof, but only to achieve a tactical goal. Once you have done your duty (testified, acted as bait, what have you) then you go back to a faceless minion. They will no longer provide you one-to-one protection - they can't afford to! There aren't enough cops, and that's just how it's going to be.
The police are part of a system of punishment which is meant to dissuade people from committing crimes. I'm pretty sure it helps, but regardless of the degree to which it has any effect, it simply cannot stop all crime.
The police can't protect you. And you are legally prohibited from protecting yourself.
Re:Why are people allowed to possess guns in the U (Score:3, Informative)
So let me answer your question with another question (and I don't mean this to be snarky or rude):
If the general population of Japan is prohibited from carrying firearms, then why do the police have them?
I bet the police carry weapons because those they attempt to prevent from committing crimes, or capture following the commission of a crime, likely, even if not all the time, have guns.
I'll go one step further. In Japan you can only be assured that the LAW ABIDING folks aren't carrying guns. Thereby, you enjoy the illusion of safety.
Now here's my return question for you: why should I, as an American, GIVE UP my right to keep and bear arms, having never used one in a crime, having never committed a felony, and having taken all the necessary steps to purchase and register the guns and obtain a concealed carry permit? By the way, in my state it is perfectly legal to walk down the street with a loaded firearm (of any legal model/style) so long as it is in the plain view of others. A permit and training (as a prerequisite for the permit) is required to carry the weapon out of the view of others.
Although as the years go by it becomes less common, I still see people with pocket-cannons tucked into holsters under their arms or in their belts at the grocery store, convenience store and even some restaurants. I am not afraid of it, nor have I ever been afraid of it. I am a firm subscriber to the theory that people kill people and the weapon involved only depends on how messy the scene is.
And finally, here is a reason why MANY rural areas allow open carry. It has little to do with shooting badguys at high noon and riding off into the sunset. If you work around animals, especially if you ride horses, it is a great idea to carry a handgun. If the horse throws you, and you become entangled in the stirrup and get dragged, you have two options: 1) shoot the horse or 2) die. Have you ever seen a rabid coyote? That's a good reason for a gun too. Also, sometimes when an animal is giving birth, there are complications from the pregnancy requiring the animal to be destroyed. We're not all veterinarians, so when the calf goes breech and the doc ain't around (put that way for effect), the mom usually gets one in the back of the head.
For the record, there is also a great difference in law between OWNING firearms and CARRYING firearms (for reasons other than transport).
Re:Again... (Score:3, Informative)
But I don't expect facts to change your mind.
Re:Gun Laws (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Gun Laws (Score:3, Informative)
It certainly would have ended it much more quickly.
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:3, Informative)
Not true. Nearly everywhere that has carry and conceal laws, crime has gone down. From here: [cato.org]
Either way, I see it as a rights issue. Just like many here think that an increase in terrorist attacks in not worth letting the NSA have a computer monitor their calls to Pakistan, I feel that I should be allowed to carry. Regardless of your opinion, I hope you don't find yourself in a situation like this [chron.com]
Re:violence (Score:4, Informative)
Here's the other side of the coin [medicinenet.com], which is what most people think of when they think of the United States and their gun problem. The numbers aren't substantially different, but the presentation sure is. Gotta love statistics -- I had to read these two articles for 30 minutes before posting to be sure I didn't put my foot in my mouth.
Re:And the Hokie administration led the charge... (Score:3, Informative)
do not trust armed constituents. Besides Constitutional issues (2nd Amendment), Western civilization historically
has deemed an individual's right to self-defense an inherent right. When the government (any) takes away that
right to self-defense, they bear the burdeon of responsibility for their citizens well-being. Repeatedly, government
has fallen far short of their responsibility for protecting citizens. Contract armed mercenaries (Blackwater Group) used
deadly force to disarm citizens of New Orleans after the Katrina Hurricane. The court system has repeatedly denied
citizens from suing local governments that not only disarm their citizens, but then fail in their obligation to protect
these same citizens from harm.
Virginia Tech/Blacksburg is in a rural area where local/regional students routinely engage in hunting during the season.
VT / Blacksburg has a rifle range, and there are several additional target ranges within a 30 minute drive (on National/
State Forest property. There is no good reason why students and faculty who can demonstrate both good citizenship
and good familiarity with handling of firearms should not be permitted to be armed on campus. In point of fact, Virginia
has a concealed carry program that vettes individuals for this right-to-carry and licenses them.
This tragic incident should never have happened. The extent of the tragedy was preventable. I do not expect that either
the government, MSM, the politicians, or the university will learn the correct (but not politically correct) lesson.
Completely agree, also keep in mind the context (Score:4, Informative)
Blacksburg is a very safe environment. The police really don't deal much with major crimes, aside from your normal array of drunken college students gone bad. Actual deaths are extremely rare. When the shooting occurred earlier in the year, regarding an escaped inmate who stumbled onto campus, that was surreal and shocking. But the leap to this
I can't imagine the police and campus security were really prepared for this, since nothing of this magnitude remotely enters our minds.
Re:Why are people allowed to possess guns in the U (Score:2, Informative)
The closest you can get are semiautomatic versions of similar looking rifles, which _are_ used for competition shooting, hunting, and other utility and sporting purposes.
Re:Gaming (Score:5, Informative)
No guns are allowed on campus. We have a few full-time shrinks on campus. The engineering student was probably an american (most of our foreign students are grad students). So far the word is the kid was a senior with 3 engineering majors. We have lots of bible groups, etc on campus, but we're not really known for being very religious or very secular for that matter.
My guess would be stress. I've seen grown men cry over single assignments, several of them, over the years here @ VT. The engineering kids are pushed really hard, and many of them don't deal with it very well. 60 hours a week of real work are pretty normal, with classes that everage 27-50%, which are only curved at the end (and nobody knows the curve till then). Try that for 4 years while growing up... Many engineering students I know end up having fairly empty shells of personalities, as their entire lives so far have circled around work and thinly veiled attempts at having a life on the side.
3 engineering majors at once would break most people. Guaranteed.
So far, the big questions are:
1. Why didn't the students find out about the 7:15am shooting until 2 hours later
2. Why was only the dorm closed?
To be fair, we had two bomb threats (no bombs) over the last 2 weeks, the last one only 3 days ago. So maybe the administration was getting tired of interrupting school for non-issues.
Re:My sincerest condolences (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Why don't the Swiss have this problem? (Score:3, Informative)
And so do the Canadians -- see here [www.cbc.ca].
No one is immune to such aberrant behaviour.
Re:Go go Jack Thompson (Score:5, Informative)
Sure. It happens quite often. http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html [guncite.com] Even the very conservative estimates put the number at over half a million per year. The most thorough survey puts it at around 2 million per year.
Re:Beyond words... (Score:2, Informative)
Most recently, an off-duty police officer stopped gunman in a Salt Lake City Mall (link [nwsource.com]).
Mall shootings were a popular terrorist tactict in Israel... until the government required all active military (practicaly all college-aged Israelies) to always be armed (can only find a second hand source, a blog post [glug.com] discussing the SLC shooting in relation to the events in Israel).
Re:Beyond words... (Score:4, Informative)
There are a few different types of people who don't feel empathy and we shouldn't confuse them. There are sociopathic types who are generally the small-time swindlers you mention. They enjoy manipulating people and probably aren't the mass-murdering type. There are also schizoid (not schizotypal) people who generally don't feel any emotions, but don't care, don't need other people, feel fine alone, and are very unlikely to go on killing sprees. And then there are the Antisocial types who want to and try to fit in but cannot, feel very empty inside, and become very angry about it--angry against the world in general. These are the most likely to go on mass killing sprees.
People experiencing the kind of psychopathy you seem to allude to are more likely to be serial killers who evade detection than mass murders who also commit suicide.
Re:Update: some doors did have chains (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Beyond words... (Score:3, Informative)
Carrying one without a holster is stupid. You're practically asking for it to fall out or get caught and shoot you. I carry pretty much everywhere it's legal for me to do so.
And no, I've never been a cop.
Re:Gun Control is "Slightly" Different... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:More than 20. . . (Score:1, Informative)
To be fair, there were 22 homicides involving handguns in England and Wales in 2005/06 (see http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.p df [homeoffice.gov.uk] page 44). Based on a mid-2005 population of 50,431,700 for England and 2,958,600 for Wales (see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=6 [statistics.gov.uk]), that's 0.41 hangun homicides per million people.
In the United States, there were 8,299 handgun homicides in 2004 (see http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/weapo nstab.htm [usdoj.gov]). Based on a mid-2004 population of 293,638,158 (see http://www.census.gov/popest/national/files/NST_ES T2006_ALLDATA.csv [census.gov]), that's 28.26 handgun homicides per million people.
Therefore, the per capita handgun homicide rate is about 69 times higher in the US compared to England and Wales.
Re:Gun Control is "Slightly" Different... (Score:3, Informative)
And Sweden? I've been to Sweden, and no on packs heat there. Where the hell did this idea come from?
Re:Check your stats (Score:3, Informative)
Here you go: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/Firearms.htm [harvard.edu] 1. Guns and homicide (literature review). We performed a review of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on homicide rates. Major Findings: A broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide. In other words, owning a gun makes you more likely to be killed by a gun ...
2. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 1988-1997
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period.
Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
In other words, the more people "packing heat" in your state, the more likely you'll be shot to death
3. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 2001-2003
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003.
Major Findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.
A gun in the house means you're more likely to kill yourself or someone is more likely to kill you.
Srolling down, we come to this:
RECENT FIREARMS RESEARCH
Harvard Injury Control Research Center 2001-2006
Firearms Research Archive 1990-1998
Firearms Research Archive 1998-2003
Firearms Research Archive 2004-2005
The Firearm Research Center:
David Hemenway, Matthew Miller, Deborah Azrael, Beth Molnar, and Lisa Hepburn
Funded by the Joyce Foundation
(unpublished material is not to be cited w/o approval of authors)
BOOK: Hemenway, David. "Private Guns and Public Health" Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press, 2004. This book summarizes the literature on the relationship between guns and injuries and describes the public health approach to reducing firearm-related violence. More information at the University of Michigan Press website: http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=1 7530 [umich.edu]
ARTICLES:
I GUNS AND DEATH
A: HOMICIDE
1. Guns and homicide (literature review).
We performed a review of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on homicide rates.
Major Findings: A broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publication: Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Homicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.
2. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 1988-1997
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period.
Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publi
Re:Gun Control is "Slightly" Different... (Score:2, Informative)
He also does a lot less damage when a red neck armed with a pistol is sitting next to him.
Total BS. Someone with a gun just offers an unbalanced person the opportunity to grab it from them. That's why cops mostly keep theirs in the the holster, under a strap.
There are other nations in this world far more armed to the teeth then Americans (Canadians and Swedes come to mind) that have much reduced levels of gun death.
In Canada, yes there are lots of guns. But people don't go down the street packing. There are more people who hunt -- either for a living or sport. I think that if you could compare the number of hand guns per capita, you would find that Canada comes out way lower than the US.
The problem is deeper then guns, and it sure as hell won't be solved by attempting the utterly futile (and certainly likely to be lethal) act of trying to take away the guns from Americans.
Guns are strictly regulated in Canada.
However I do agree that the problem does go very deep. I think it also relates to the need some people have to carry a gun. Your post displays it clearly. If lots of people carry guns, you think that no one will mess with you, because they fear you have one. I fail to see the connection. In fact I see the opposite -- guns cause fear, fear causes violence. The "bad guy" will fear you to have a gun and therefore make sure they have one and shoot you first.
Tony
Re:are you serious? (Score:3, Informative)
The solution to school shootings is *more* guns in the classrooms?
Currently at Virginia Tech, there are NO guns in classrooms (unless someone is carrying one on campus illegally like the shooter today). Banning guns on campus did nothing to avert this tragedy. It did prevent law abiding students from carrying protection and possibly stopping this guy partway through his rampage. It's very possible the same outcome would have occurred if guns were allowed on campus. However, banning guns won't prevent criminals from using them.
Re:My sincerest condolences (Score:3, Informative)
I'll assume you meant 2001.
If you believe Steven Levitt's stats in Freakonomics, I do.
From page 22,
Homicides per 100,000 people (England)
13th/14th c. 23.0
15 NA
16 7
17 5
18 1.5
19 1.7
1900-1949 0.8
1950-1994 0.7
There is a very similar trend in the four other areas mentioned on page 22 of that book. These statistics, according to Levitt, were compiled by the criminologist Manuel Eisner.
Re:Beyond words... (Score:5, Informative)
But sorrily they forget about a very "little and simple" fact: chances to be violently killed per million inhabitants. One would think that's an easy and clear number, isn't it? But, hey, they seemed to forget about it in the NRA-supported articles you kindly cite.
Well, here come some numbers http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-
United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
So, your chances to be killed in the USA were x3 those from "wild Australia", "violent UK" or "mad Canada", or x10 those from "samuray Japan".
But, hey, this is old data!
Well, here comes the "2005/2006 Home Office Statistical Bulletin for England and Wales" (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207
And what about the USA? Well, disastercenter (http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) says there were 16,692 murders in 2005, or 56 murders per million. Hummm... how much it does 56/14? Well, it's even WORSE THAN DATA FROM 2000! Your bets of being murdered in USA are 4x those from the "wild UK". Isn't it soooooooo strange after the "facts" from our friends of the NRA?
Re:Exactly right. (Score:1, Informative)
BALONEY. GUN CONTROL IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR TODAY'S TRAGEDY.
Gun control created the environment in which a killer could run rampant without fear of being stopped.
As long as man is a social animal there will be bad members of society. Criminals, whether they are cold blooded killers, crazed psychotics, or terrorists, do not obey the law. VA Tech was a "gun-free zone" according to school policy. It should be obvious by now that "gun-free zone" = "target-rich environment." The school's policy is tantamount to unilateral victim disarmament. How many times in the past has that stopped predators? In 1915 Armenia? In Nazi Germany? In the killing fields of Cambodia? Today in Darfur? In numerous school shootings here in the US?
VA Tech has about 25,000 students. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that concealed carry was legal on campus but only 1% of the student body took advantage of the ability to be legally armed. There would have been 250 persons on campus who could have responsed to the gunman's attack.
Years ago, Israel was plagued with school shootings perpetrated by Palestinian terrorists. Those shootings stopped when the Israelis started arming school staff with Uzis and M1 Carbines. No longer juicy pickings, the Pali terrorists moved onto easier targets.
In the US, the majority of college students are legally adults. They should be encouraged to take responsibility for themselves, not hindered in doing so. Society should view someone willing to equip himself with a gun and training for defense in the same way it looks at someone who keeps a fire extinguisher in his kitchen. Carry a gun for self-defense doesn't make someone a vigilante or cop wannabe, just like having fire extinguishers at home doesn't make someone a fireman wannabe.
Ironically, last year there was an effort in the Virginia legislature to lift the ban on legal CCW at VA's universities, but sadly it died in committee. At the time, a VA Tech spokesman was quoted:
"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
As usual, reflexive, irrational fear of weapons based on "feelings" ultimately resulted in dozens of dead and wounded innocents.
It's time to bury the pernicious myth that disarming good people can save them from evil. It's time to get rid of gun control before it claims more lives.
Re:Possible Suspect? (Score:3, Informative)
My apologies to Mr. Chiang-- he has posted a note saying that he was not the shooter. As he says on the same livejournal:
Re:Why are people allowed to possess guns in the U (Score:3, Informative)
More strawmen, please. This one's easy...
Re:As horrifying as this is... (Score:3, Informative)
I think your numbers are way off. From the CDC [cdc.gov]:
Table 18, Number of deaths in the U.S. in 2003, by Firearms:
Unintentional - 730
Suicide - 16,907
Homicide - 11,920
Undetermined - 232
Legal intervention / war - 347
TOTAL FIREARM: 30,136
By that, I see 730 Unintentional deaths by firearms in 2003.
By comparison, Drowning (Unintentional) is 3,306. I don't see any available statistics about bathtubs, but I suspect it's nowhere near as high as 730 per year (which would be 22% of all drownings.)
Bullshit. (Score:3, Informative)
In a one to one situation you still have good chances of survival even if you don't have a knife.
Re:Engineering building (Score:3, Informative)
That's part of the reason why you carry concealed, and is a reasonably good argument why it's preferable to open carry.