Windows For Warships Nearly Ready 387
mattaw writes "The Register is carrying the sanest and balanced article on Windows deployment in UK warships that I have read to date in the public domain.
As an ex-naval bod myself we have long considered that this is potentially a REAL problem. The main issues are the huge amount of unrelated code that is imported with the kernel and the need for incredibly fast response times."
Re:Sortof a Microsoft fanboy, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:You need responsiveness and stability (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Sortof a Microsoft fanboy, but... (Score:3, Informative)
In the case of military systems I would think both of those problems would be avoided as they are going to be running hardware and software designed specifically for the application and none of it would be user installed.
As for the interface I suspect it would take some digging to figure out that a finished battleship control system was running Windows. I doubt there will be a Start -> Games -> Pinball menu choice next to the window running the radar console. Most popular HMI [citect.com] packages for manufacturing equipment run on Windows and any good setup will hide any component of the OS that isn't needed to run that machine. Or if an intuitive UI really is a big deal, there is always OSX.
The biggest advantage Windows has over everything else is that it will generally work with any hardware or software a person might pick off the shelf of any podunk software store anywhere on earth. For desktops that trumps all its disadvantages. For installing on a battleship I don't see how that gives it a leg up.
Now try maintaining a lot of them. (Score:3, Informative)
While that may be your experience, if such were the case with the majority, Windows would be far more reliable than it is.
That would be because it should be easy to identify the buggy drivers (your "B") or to use a diagnostic program to stress test the other components (your "A").
In my experience (supporting 100+ workstations), Windows is just arcane. Following the exact same install process with the exact same install CD's will give you different results on different machines (same make and model)
Then we get into the whole concept of the Registry and DLL Hell and so forth. Un-installing an app may not get rid of all of the crap from that app and so you'll have stuff just sitting around waiting to trigger a crash. And different versions of DLL files overwrite each other so re-installing may fix app A, but break app B.
Troubleshooting on Linux is so much easier and faster. Which is one of the reasons I prefer Ubuntu (or vanilla Debian).
Re:Sortof a Microsoft fanboy, but... (Score:2, Informative)
It should also be mentioned that due to cosmic radiation it's better to use larger circuits instead of those smaller and smaller processes that are used for modern CPUs as that reduces the likelyhood of data corruption through radiation.
Good idea for usability...but with caveats. (Score:4, Informative)
Windows does have a closed-source kernel, but it does have the advantage of hosting a user interface that even the most basic-knowledge recruit will know. Windows is on 90+% of the world's computers, and absolutely every younger person knows how to navigate around in it.
Here's a parallel example from my line of work...the airline business. Lots of carriers have systems that were designed 20-30 years ago. Most have GUIs slapped over the top of a terminal emulator, but even those are cryptic. Some airlines send their customer service agents to a month of training just to get them to memorize the key parts of the system. I would imagine military systems of the same vintage are even more complex, and force a serviceperson to endure many months of training. Training, by the way, that will prove useless in the real world.
I'll bet the defense contractors designing any Windows-based system have full access to the kernel source anyway. Also, don't forget that stuff designed for the battlefield isn't exactly slapped together by a bunch of new graduates who picked up a ".NET for Dummies" book.
Trident FUD (Score:5, Informative)
And the 98/1 is incapable of running Windows without a ground up rewrite - it's a (IIRC) 24 bit machine with an architecture that is (to put it mildly) wildly different from a PC.
The line "We're starting to search really hard for things to panic about here." from TFA could more accurately be written "We're writing nonsense here without actually having a clue" - which makes one wonder about the veracity of the remainder of the article. Especially since on a mailing list for sailors and naval professionals (of many nations) I am on, many things about US and UK kit are discussed - but the massive reliability issues TFA brings up (handwaves) are notable by their absence.
The bit in TFA about paper charts is especially telling - because any experienced and knowledgable sailor knows those charts have been retained on purpose. Charts don't crash - and the vast majority of the time they are more than sufficient to the task.
From TFA:
More pure FUD - because having a high tech navigation system is no proof against crashing into things. Witness the recent grounding of USS San Francisco - caused by a combination of operator error and a bit of seafloor being less than accurately mapped. (Much of the Earth's water is poorly mapped by modern standards - including harbors!) Equally, consider the hundreds of times a year the RN *does* move in and out of harbor without crashing into things.
I could go on - but I can summarize fairly succinctly; The author of the Register article not only appears to know very little about Naval matters, but he appears to have learned what he does know from USENET trolls and Slashdot. The biography appended to the article indicates he spent his time in EOD - not someone I would expect to be knowledgeable about ship operations. It also reveals he wrote a book detailing the problems with the procurement system - whose Amazon reviews show to contain a systemic bias againt BAE.
My qualifications? (Since the question will come up.) 10 years in the USN Submarine Service working with the MK88 and MK 98 Trident Fire Control Systems, as well as 30 odd years of studying naval technology and issues.
to be fair to the Navy... (Score:5, Informative)
Having said that, while I worked on these projects, at the same agency the FIST project was getting under way (a project to equip infantry with personal computer/weapons systems, with HUD in-helmet). At least in our part of the business, it was a standing joke because it ran on windows (95, I think) and kept crashing (our team was using Solaris at the time).
Re:Blue Screen of Death? (Score:1, Informative)
You mean like the USS Yorktown?
http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.88.html#subj1 [ncl.ac.uk]
It was dead in the water for 2 hour, 45 minutes.
Re:Blue Screen of Death? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:But It's Still Software From Another Country (Score:3, Informative)
Re:But It's Still Software From Another Country (Score:3, Informative)
You must not be a resident of the United Kingdom. I find it interesting that any country's government or military would rely on a foreign proprietary piece of software to reach mission critical goals.
You mean like how Australia is strongly considering it's involvement in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter project because we can't get access to the source code?
http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/Pubs/rn/2005-06/0
From the report:
The question about the release of the source code to Australia has not been confirmed publicly. It is understood that maintenance of the JSF will be undertaken in a regional logistics and maintenance centre run by Lockheed Martin. Without access to the source code, Australia may in coming decades be put in the invidious position of having no option but to pay whatever Lockheed Martin asks during future contract negotiations for the ongoing maintenance of Australia's strike fighters.
It seems that the UK is also considering pulling out of the F-35 for the same reason - and if the UK pulls out, so might Australia.
US Navy... (Score:4, Informative)
Sometime in the early 90s, many of the west coast fleet had adopted a WindowsNT based system dubbed "IT21" (Information Technology, 21st Century). If I recall correctly, SPAWAR (a US Navy owned Corporation), was a considerable driving force behind deployment. Most of the use for this IT21 system was for console/end-user use. And not necessarily used for firecontrol, navigation, tactical displays et al. Thank god, but this system was plagued from the get go. Sadly, many of those who go to work for SPAWAR aren't really bright as too many are old retired Navy Chiefs and Officers riding it out in a nice, secure job.
Side Note: What SPAWAR should be doing, is to aggressively recruit military personal on their way out of the armed forces. All military forces go through a lot of debriefing for those deciding to not re-enlist or continue their commission. A lengthy "education" effort, that gives us more than two weeks of "What benefits you get from the VA", "Your rights as a Veteran", "Montgomery GI Bill and how to use it"... et al. But, they don't... I never saw a SPAWAR rep asking any of us if we would like to apply--(since we are technically active military, initiate a "agency" transfer request from one to another.)
Back on topic. The entire network was a mess. And the fact it was Windows didn't make it any cleaner. BDCs, PDCs... crashing right and left, half the time entire decks (which is a big deal on an aircraft carrier) were offline. But, one very disturbing thing is...
A (once upon a time) friend and I compromised the entire Windows based network. Because I had (and still maintain) a clearance, oh boy, it was an issue that had me pretty nervous. Nevermind the details of this. Let us simply acknowledge that the US Navy doesn't have a sense of humor!
The entire infrastructure for the IT21 system was infested with numerous security issues. Not exactly the problems of those designing the network because most of the problems were due to Microsoft Software and recommended or required services to accomodate the design requirements.
Is it still as bad? Unless the Navy has flipped upside-down, delcare the aft end of a ship the front... IT21 system is likely still being used. Admiral... whoever at the time also pushed the issue in an effort to update the technology used by the sailors in the Fleet. (While the Navy always had impressive R&D, and neat technology buried deep within implementation. Most of the sailors were still using 486s on the desktops, which makes the Navy seem "out-dated" regardless if they actually were. Let's face it, a sailor to do his job still doesn't need much more than a 486 for most of them. In any case, as with a General, an Admiral makes a demand a billion other hopeful high-ranking personell will use their power to "suck him off in hopes of getting recommended to 'Flag'". Things get done, whether for the best or the worst.
There wasn't many computers on our Carrier we didn't have full access to. From the unix servers down in the RM (Radio Man) space, to the skippers personal IT21 desktop in his room.
BTW, we got off scotch free. And the speed in which we compromised the network could cause nose-bleeds. The network was so bad, that half the time (for the only reason we compromised the network), we ended up having to play "Admin" and fixing things (including making things more secure.) so we could do what we wanted.