Successful Alternatives To Password Authentication? 188
DonaldP asks: "Have any of you successfully deployed a key, token, or biometric-based access control for Windows machines to replace (or enhance) the typical login/logout authentication process (even image-recognition schemes would be considered)? I see different stuff out there but short of actually evaluating each one, it's hard to get a good idea of what the scene is like, what is crap and what actually delivers. Does anyone have experience with such systems, or can suggest other suitable solutions?"
"Some existing solutions (smartcards, etc) have their own quirks. Most notably, they trigger a login, or a logout event (plug it in to log in, remove to log out). Frankly, that just takes too long. Access granting needs to be quick and easy, because it will be frequent (and Fast User Switching doesn't work on machines that are part of a domain, according to Microsoft's docs). The machines I want to deploy on are domain-connected systems, basically serving kiosk roles in a warehouse. Usage is frequent, usage of a system is shared, and access needs to be quick and easy.
A 'Holy Grail' would be something like you see on the point-of-sale terminals in the food industry. Waitrons swipe or wave their card to access the (shared) terminal, quickly punch in or look up what they need, and they're out of there until next time.
The specific technology used (iris scanner, fingerprint scanner, smartcard, keycard, RFID, etc) isn't particularly important. I want to roll out something easier for the floor people to manage than the typical standard username/password authentication method, that provides:
- FAST locking/unlocking the screen (or fast login/logout action).
- Allows multiple 'keys' to be used for one system (many individual users, one computer).
- An event log (or equivalent) to identify which key unlocked/locked the system and when.
- the ability to disable individual keys in the event of loss, theft, etc.
The few products that I have found range from so-so to vapor-seeming. PSL would probably hit all the bases but it looks like vapor. The documentation link isn't there, the FAQ is blank, and the 'Reviews' and 'News' pages are empty. The RF-based one for WirelessDefender seems slick but it doesn't look like the hardware would accommodate multiple users for a single unit."
In addition to recommendations and suggestions, if you've tried biometric authentication and have horror stories of stuff that *didn't* work, feel free to share those too, if you would."
A 'Holy Grail' would be something like you see on the point-of-sale terminals in the food industry. Waitrons swipe or wave their card to access the (shared) terminal, quickly punch in or look up what they need, and they're out of there until next time.
The specific technology used (iris scanner, fingerprint scanner, smartcard, keycard, RFID, etc) isn't particularly important. I want to roll out something easier for the floor people to manage than the typical standard username/password authentication method, that provides:
- FAST locking/unlocking the screen (or fast login/logout action).
- Allows multiple 'keys' to be used for one system (many individual users, one computer).
- An event log (or equivalent) to identify which key unlocked/locked the system and when.
- the ability to disable individual keys in the event of loss, theft, etc.
The few products that I have found range from so-so to vapor-seeming. PSL would probably hit all the bases but it looks like vapor. The documentation link isn't there, the FAQ is blank, and the 'Reviews' and 'News' pages are empty. The RF-based one for WirelessDefender seems slick but it doesn't look like the hardware would accommodate multiple users for a single unit."
Yup. (Score:4, Funny)
Tag Trolling (Score:2)
Smart Card + RSA key (Score:2, Interesting)
The most secured system... (Score:1)
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There are non-commercial solutions where you don't have to buy Exceed, too. I find them somewhat kludgey. YMMV.
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Nonsense. A computer with a different OS in the same room would be more secure.
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My TRS-80 Model 100 is even MORE secure, as the EPROM or non-volatile memory would have to be hacked for rogue software to be running on it. Or something bad with BASIC.
And my SYM-
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Re:The most secured system... (Score:4, Funny)
True Story (Score:2)
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> Is a Windows computer without network access in a locked room. I heard the NSA and/or CIA has a few of these highly secured systems. ... which is only secure until I insert my USB key to .
Sure, it'd be a matter of
1) virus on removable media (1) infects "secure" machine
2) virus infects next removable media (2) with random text from secure machine as payload (along with itself)
3) virus infects next machine it comes across, with botnet instructions allowing it to spam that random text along with adv
Smart cards (Score:2, Interesting)
This one didn't work so well (Score:4, Interesting)
After you entered your username, the logon program would look up your employee payroll records and ask you a random question from them. If you answered correctly, you would get logged on.
Sometimes it was easy. For example, it might ask your street address. You'd have to answer exactly as in the record, but that wasn't too difficult.
Often, the only way you could log in was to have a copy of your employee payroll records in front of you. For example, do you know to the penny how much withholding has been deducted from your pay this year? Or how much your total take home was last year?
The experiment didn't last too long before it went back to username / password.
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The problem? I was asked when I met my spouse. This is an interesting question since I'm unmarried. o_O
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Q: where were you born
A: ohio
error, must be 5 characters
So I'm probably the only person born in multiple states at the same time, "ohios"
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Q: where were you born
A: ohio
error, must be 5 characters
So I'm probably the only person born in multiple states at the same time, "ohios"
You're probably the only person who puts in overly broad information too. If it asked "In which state were you born?" then your complaint is legitimate. I guess you didn't consider that "Earth" would have satisfied the 5 character requirement.
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The passwords were 12 alphanumeric characters, were system assigned, and were changed monthly. They were more than a tad difficult to remember, even for those with doctorates with rea
Biometrics & problems (Score:3, Informative)
As for login times, you're not going to be able to do much about them. It's simply the nature of Windows and most other login/logoff systems.
The video (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Biometrics & problems (Score:1, Offtopic)
Windows2K, XP, Vista (And even all the older variations of NT) have time restricted and control login and usage policies. This is something that an administrator can easily set in the domain or authenication server or even a local machine policy. This is something that is very easy to set, even on a home computer for Kids let alone a domain where you can flip a switch
Re:Biometrics & problems (Score:2)
That's not the issue at hand here -- the original poster was referring to the amount of time it takes to log on with
Re:Biometrics & problems (Score:2)
Thanks for pointing this out.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
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Honor System (Score:2, Funny)
We haven't had any issues as far as we are aware.
Fingerprint login (Score:5, Interesting)
We recently deployed an application using an RF-based fingerprint reader. It uses the Authentec chip which is in many readers. It is extremely difficult to fool because it scans below the skin level. Some jello mold finger isn't going to work with this.
The software is very simple and very fast. You can either use their database (encrypted) or your own for storing templates.
We decided that this was the only way to avoid compromising existing user/password security for systems already in place. If we had even the possibility of the same passwords being used, our system would have to be provably at least as secure as whatever they were currently using. A very difficult and wide-open standard to be measured against. Therefore, no passwords at all.
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Okay, maybe not a jello mold finger, but what about a Bic pen [wired.com] or a magic marker [wired.com]?
Just because no one has figured it out yet doesn't mean they won't tomorrow, and with stuff from their junk drawer.
Going with only a single authentication and calling yourself "secure" is foolish.
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Not to mention, as we all know from Hollywood, this will just encourage more cutting off of people's fingers.
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Suggestions (Score:5, Informative)
This is true of WindowsXP, but not Vista. There are tricks to make Fast User Switching work in XP, you might want to check into them, although I wouldn't recommend them and would enforce a user policy that would just force the users to log off.(Make sure the policy is not just on the machines, but an employee manual policy as well, so that users log off when they are done.) You might also put in plans for Vista in any planned upgrades for your systems if this is important to your organization to allow the multi-user access method in a domain environment.
Stay away from fingerprint biometric (and variations) for true security, even though they are nice that the user doesn't have to cary a card or device with them. You can easily circumvent them by lifting a fingerprint of the user from a glass for example and using it to gain access to their login.
One technology that holds has a ligh level of security is tablet or signature sign on devices. The user signs their name. This is hard to defeat for most of the advanced devices, as they not only do a recognition of the input, but also compute the stroke pressure, speed, etc. So it makes it virtually impossible even for someone that can copy signatures to circumvent as they don't use the same pressure, speed, angle, etc as the real person. This is using the cool parts of Ink technology in that it is not just the image created, but all the other stored information making the signature very unique.
However, for true security go with a Smart Card solution. It does require the users to carry a card or device with them - look at Cell phones and other devices that are implementing this technology, that way users don't have to carry a card. There is a reason Casinos and Gold Mines use this technology, and if the user loses the card you can easily disable the card from the central domain and replace it with a new card for the user. These devices are also nice in that many non-computer devices use them, and employees can also use the same card for access to doors, phones, and other types of security and access throughout the building. So if you need other levels of access or security later on in your organization the same device can be used for authenication away from the computer.
Do some research and start with the main sites on security. They will have plenty of solutions and suggestions for helping with your login and security. Even go to MS's website and look up smart cards and biometrics since you are using Windows workstations.
Good Luck.
Re:Don't trust signatures either (Score:2)
It's actually easier to observe signature timings than it is to shoulder-surf typing a password.
The simple problem is that with many biometric technologies, if you turn the false negative level so it rarely stops *you* logging in correctly, it's n
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It's actually easier to observe signature timings than it is to shoulder-surf typing a password.
I think you are comparing Apples and Oranges...
Using code that computes the pressure, angle and speed of the signature can be very complex. Most of th
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Can't use smartcards for doors (Score:2)
How can we do your job for you... (Score:3, Insightful)
I've used SECURID tokens and they work, but they're slower than regular login/logout methods.
Are you trying to lock access to the desktop or is the desktop being used as a dumb terminal to some random application?
If the latter then can you just lock down the desktop and modify the application?
I'm thinking that this is for something like a time card system, where people walk up, sign in/out and walk off. Given that you're saying speed is of the essence then it seems that that is likely. Have you considered a commercial offering? I am sure that most of the vendors have some sort of solution to uniquely identify particular individuals.
Magnetic stripe card containing a private key and a passphrase (pin?) known by the employee would work.
If you need to grant them full access to the windows PC then why are you worrying about security in the first place...:-)
Z.
tweakui (Score:1)
Another alternative on some versions of Windows is just to click the 'cancel' dialogue button each time, or better yet, just leave the password blank the first time you log on the newly installed system. This works for Windows 9x and Me, and is a great alternative to password authentication.
These methods are very secure if
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Re:about your tagline (the saga continues) (Score:2)
You're talking about a SunRay (Score:2)
http://www.udel.edu/topics/os/unix/sunray/aboutTe
Remove passwords (Score:5, Insightful)
After 6 months I can happily say, it worked, the move is vindicated and the frightened little control freaks had to eat their words
and admit it is pure genius.:)
We removed all our passwords.
Obviously this doesn't suit everyone. We are a smallish organisation with less than 50. The idea that everybody could actually
be trusted inside the organisation was central, as was the fact that most are not very computer minded and basically quite thick
when it comes to remembering passwords. The point being that if anyone inside the organisation could *NOT* be trusted then we were
screwed anyway, passwords or not. The move coincided with a massive revamp of network structure, a very restrictive new
firewall and password free ACL, basically cutting the intranet off from the outside except for a few key workstations that need general WAN access,
everything else is VPN. So now you can just walk up to any console, type your login name and get access. We can still log who does
what, and casual visitors can't just get access unless they know a valid login name. Because there are no secrets from each other anybody
can use anybody elses login if the wish. In 6 months I haven't seen anybody do that, because there is no need to. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.
Obviously this would not work in a paranoid organisation where everybody is at each others throats, or it would radically change everything if
you did try it.
Sometimes you have to take a step back to see the wood for the trees.
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what, and casual visitors can't just get access unless they know a valid login name. Because there are no secrets from each other anybody
can use anybody else's login if the wish. In 6 months I haven't seen anybody do that, because there is no need to.
You mean, you haven't seen anyone do it because you 1) have the hope/assumption that everyone is honest, and 2) wouldn't be able to see it if they were sem
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In my experience it's not even that. It's a matter of mis-communication. In almost all cases people screwing up data is completely non-malicious. Keeping sane permissions on stuff doesn't make it all better, but it can help sometimes.
Nevertheless, every situation is different and if this guy can get away with a trusting environment then more power too him. Trust is a powerful thing,
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I worked in a place where everyone knew everyone else's password which was a bit more disfunctional than you describe above. They were forever playing jokes on each other this way - the place was infested with sp
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I give biometrics the finger (Score:2)
No - you have some kind of key. I get into work with a physical key - if that is stolen the theif still needs an alarm code. With your device you need both it and the number or password to activate it to get to all the other passwords - a theif can't just use it.
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But most Windows 2003 servers I've seen aren't set up to do logging in detail anyway. So, "who accessed what" would be difficult t
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Just because you trust everyone now doesn't mean that you shouldn't, for accountability reasons, maintain adequat
DNA (Score:5, Funny)
its effective, but we have noticed a rise in healthcare costs.
Let''s just pay to get Sam Fisher whacked. (Score:2)
Authentication Options (Score:1)
There are fingerprint and ocular authentication devices out there, but I wouldn't want to give anyone a reason to remove my finger (or my eye for that matter).
Many people use a usb drive with an RSA key or a smart card. Windows implemented bitlocker in vista (ultimate and corporate editions) which is basically file system encryption that can be authenticated with a password and/or external key.
The most straight forward and easy option in my opinion is to use a passphrase (something much longer than a pa
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SunRay Thin Clients (Score:3, Interesting)
As for the lack of windows applications, it is actually possible [sun.com] to do it even on sunrays , although admitedly it is not particularly suitable for the small scale that the article submitter implies.
Anyway, you might take a look at those two links, and if you must absolutely use PCs (sunrays are more suitable for the job the article is outlining), take a look at citrix also [citrix.com]. I don't know whether they do smartcards though.
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Citrix gives us the couple of applications we can't replace. Visio and Lotus are really the gotchas.
SnakeCard (Score:3, Informative)
His application runs a little on the secure side, but he's got it integrated nicely into ActiveDirectory.
He's a programmer more than a marketing guy, so his site's a little rough around the edges. Cards/Application works beautifully for me though.
http://www.snakecard.com/ [snakecard.com]
Why not ID badges? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose we would then only have to worry about our coworkers stealing our badges to do nefarious stuff as our own so perhaps we could combine it with thumb print scanner and maybe a pin number.
Still, I guess one could beat the password out of the poor worker, steal his badge, and then cut off his thumb... Or maybe kidnap his kid and blackmail him.
Seriously, unless you are working in a government agency, I don't see anymore security you are going to get out of a badge through and a thumb print.
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Re:Why not ID badges? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or you could say, "Hey Joe, I need your card, can I get it?"
I once maintained a misson-critical database system for a large physics experiment, which used barcode readers to determine who assembled what parts of the detector. On my first visit to the cleanroom where the actual assembly was taking place I found a piece of wood that had stickers with everyone's barcode printed on, so any old assembly worker could become the supervisor, for example. It turned out that the database had some deep issues that made it practically impossible for the workers to actually do the assembly without lying to it. And because it was all hand-rolled C++ spaghetti that was actually trying to get an adequate solution to an NP-hard problem under some severe constraints it wasn't practical to change it. Nor was it actually necessary, because the workers were really trying to do the right thing, they just couldn't.
But the experience made me very aware of how easy it is for co-operative workers to fake reality big-time without the system being at all aware of it, and most password/identity schemes are subject to this. Some kind of deep biometrics really does seem to be required, but unless they are very reliable, fast, easy to use and unobtrusive they won't be used. And some, as others have pointed out regarding optical fingerprint readers, are very easy to game.
Re:Why not ID badges? Credit cards (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't know many people who would respond to "Hey Joe, I need your credit card?"
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Given the empirically-known reality of human behaviour it is virtually certain that after a period of aclimatization people would happily give each other thier credit cards "for identification purposes only."
If you're familiar with the early Neilsen studies of television-watching behaviour, you'll recall that people with cameras in their living rooms set to record who was watching TV when (in the 1950's) were sometimes filmed hav
Smart Cards DON'T trigger logoff on removal (Score:2)
Be aware that all of the alternate auth systems I have seen so far (including Smart Card) have lots of caveats. Some want to load a custom GINA. Resist this (read: NO, don't load that GINA). Most don't work right for multi-domain scenarios (where you are in domain 1, and want to connect or maybe ma
two choices (Score:2)
SecurID - Works great, same as above. Costs money every month for service, significantly higher security than the smartcard or other systems.
At work.. (Score:2, Funny)
Biometrics are hazardous to security!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
How is this different from passwords, you say?
You can change your damned compromised passwords! Once your biometric info gets out there, you're compromised for LIFE.
My advice is to avoid all instances of biometric 'security'. Forever.
Biometrics aren't passwords (Score:2)
A password (in theory) identifies you because you're the only one who knows it. That identification property can be lost in a heartbeat to a phishing scam.
Biometrics need a different set of precautions. Recording and replaying the biometric information isn't an issue if there's a trustworthy path from the sensor to the database and a security guard who will challenge anybody who holds a severed finger up to the reader.
You've been using biometrics for id
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And since there is never a trustworthy path from the sensor to the database (anything can be hacked) and since it only takes one failure to permanently leak the data, you've made the GP's point nicely: biometrics are not secure. This does not make them useless, but it does mean that they ar
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However what if, instead of getting their hands on my hash, they get something that looks like my finger, at least to a sensor?
Well then I am fucked, and the argument about consequences are real. Can't change my finger. Well, I can up to 10 times, but an authentication scheme with only 10 possible hashes is obviously lousy.
Get a Mac, no serious (Score:2)
Furthermore, RFID (RSA) tags, keycard, iris scanning - see what you can AFFORD. You're probably not the NSA so you can't just spend any type of money. Good iris or fingerprint scanners (which are not easily fooled) are quite expensive if you need them for each terminal.
Restricted physical access (Score:2, Insightful)
I wouldn't do that in most offices though.
Two good choices .... (Score:2)
For a bit of added security without too much grief over drivers and special hardware, RSA SecurID is the gold standard
Sun-Ray (Score:2, Informative)
You won't like this idea (Score:2)
Users login once. When they pull their cards, their sessions detach from the Sun Rays, but keep running on the terminal server. When they put their cards back in, they get their Windows desktops again,
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Smart cards can be PIN-protected. N invalid PINs in a row, and the card is blocked (N is usually three, but it depends on the case). So smart cards are pretty secure, since they make brute-forcing NOT an option.
Revocation (Score:2)
My favorite quote on this was from a StarTrek:TNG, when someone locks himself into a room with Data and pulls a gun on him. Data's response: "I assume that handprint scanner will open the door whether you are conscious or not."
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Tried and true. I was skeptical of the SecurID fob I was given at my current job... but now I see how secure it is and yet still allows me to have the access I need without jumping through a bunch of crap to get there.
Same door, new key every 30 seconds. Combined with a private pin number, and on some systems a local account (
"Werner Brandes ... (Score:2)
physical authentication on the mac (Score:2)
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overkill? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds like this guy needs a quick system for employees to check some info. It DOESN'T sound like the submitter is working in a nuclear plant, a bank vault, or any other highly secure facility.
Check http://www.snapfiles.com/get/naturallogin.html/ [snapfiles.com] out. It's a shareware program ($30 to buy) that uses USB flash drives and inserting them into a USB port automatically logs them into the windows system. Sounds like it will work with the existing windows login scheme.
Retina scanning, RSA keys, and fingerprinting sound cool, but they're probably overkill, and overly expensive. They have their place; but I'm inferring that the submitter doesn't need to be THAT secure.
I worked at Lowe's (the home improvement warehouse) and we had to make shelf tags, check stock for customers, order products for customers, run registers, and clock in/clock out. We did it all with one system with an employee number and social security for password. It would have been easier and cooler if I didn't have to give out my SSN every time I checked stock on an item for a customer.
Passwords (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Do a risk analysis: Categorize your risk to high, medium and low using business risk, security risk and information risk
2. In an enterprise setting, you then need to deploy some type of single sign on package. In the package you then need to create a set of authentication strengths. Things like passwords and proximity badges are for low risk applications (the reason being the
Abstract threats too noble to neglect (Score:2)
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect*** Bob Dylan. "My back Pages."
ANY form of security is a pain in the ass. Given that hardly anything in this industry works quite right, it's a safe bet that anything new or or complicated has a high probability of being a bundle of grief. I wouldn't go near biometrics unless you have some really stringent and unusual requirements ... but that's just me. Most IT people are les
A point often missed (Score:3, Insightful)
Using biometrics might still require some action on your part (put the thumb on the reader, look into the reader, etc.) but the password is always the same. You may be unaware of what it is being used for -exactly-. This risk is non-existent with passwords, if you pick your passwords carefully. You have to consciously select the password you memorized for this particular application and if you do it well, the password won't unlock anything else.
I'm not saying passwords are the end-all of security, but they do have this aspect whereas most other solutions that are being considered because of their increase safety in terms of creating copies or simply 'cracking the code' don't.
I used to use a smart-card (Score:2)
In a previous life, I had a smart-card for a badge, which I shoved in a sunray x-terminal or a laptop as the"thing I had", and typed a password as the "thing I knew", after which I got my current session back.
If I needed to so somewhere else, I unplugged the card and my session was saved. When I got there, I plugged back in again, typed my password to the screen-saver and picked up exactly where I left off.
I was very pleased with this scheme: it saved me hours of frustration with AD kludgery and the
Proximity based authentication (Score:2)
http://www.ensuretech.com/products/demo/demo.html [ensuretech.com]
I've seen this used in a local hospital, but I'm not sure how it has worked out. The one user I talked to (our nurse) indicated that they really liked the system.
The problem is Windows (Score:2)
I've been using ssh keys quite successfully, and we're currently implementing a VPN setup using authpf. We're using ssh keys + passwords for this. If a machine is stolen; it's not a big deal. The theif has the key but no
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But the average non-IT schmuck working for a company won't have the knowledge or ability to crack a strong password successfully. If they try a dictionary attack, you can have the system scream bloody murder to IT as well as disabling the account after (say) 5 failed attempts in a given time period.
-b.
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is it possible to use it sort of backwards... put the module on a USB key for example... so that it is protecting the data on the key.
How could one retrofit a TPM on devices without it to begin with
Are there development kits available (at reasonable prices)? With example schematics? With example code that's not dependent on Microsoft Windows and Visual Studio?
My side gig is a small engineering and design firm... you could almost call this a 'vanity
If you only had a Windows key ;-) (Score:2)