Depressed? Net-based Treatments Can Help 154
Jung and the Restless writes "Researchers at an Australian university have found that regular visits to therapeutic and educational web sites can successfully treat depression. Researchers directed patients to The MoodGYM, a cognitive behavior therapy site, and BluePages, a depression education site. After 12 months, users of both web sites reported improvement, with the educational site working out better than the behavior therapy site. A psychotherapist who did not participate in the study says that the results aren't all that surprising. 'Cognitive behavioral strategies — sometimes in conjunction with medication — are the most effective means of treating depression,' and 'a person who is visiting an educational site like BluePages is taking the necessary steps with her own self-care. That's a key component of successful treatment for depression'"
Where's the control group? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Heck, I think this applies outside of illness. I know lots of people (myself included) who are challenged to do something, and rationale will set in that it cannot be done, so it's deemed impossible. When it's known something can be done, even if it isn't proven, often times a solution can be found. I jokingly call that the 'power of ignor
Re:Where's the control group? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That is often the case ("usual" treatment as a control). However, it's often not an optimal one since the "usual treatment" may not have been well studied in the first place. This, in fact, is the more typical case in medicine since the bulk of our "
Re:Where's the control group? (Score:5, Insightful)
The exception would be in cases where effective treatment exists, and withholding it would be a death sentence. For example, you probably won't see many placebo-controlled trials of new HIV drugs. In these cases active comparator trials are the only way to fly.
Re: (Score:2)
There are more than "a few" diseases where placebos make the test subjects better. There are many non-psychiatric studies where the control group on placebo showed "real" non-subjective improvement (objective readings like blood pressure, lipid panels, etc.). Is it a treatment bias, where the person who feels like they are being treated simply feels better? Is it because the subjects receiv
Psychologists need to learn more than this (Score:5, Interesting)
Moving sideways for an analogy, it's like going into hospital with a stab wound and being given aspirin. When that doesn't work, more aspirin is given, and the doc insists it's better, despite nothing healing and the pain being just as bad. 18 months later, when the doc has done nothing more than to give more aspirin, I realise it's another bum move, and I try another doctor. The next doctor says he has just the right treatment... and whips out some aspirin.
Psych training is pretty damned poor in Australia.
Re:Psychologists need to learn more than this (Score:4, Informative)
I had this same problem, the doctors were going the medication route - but I also had anxiety, so giving medication with poor documentation and statistics just made things worse. In the end I managed to spend time with a psychologist (not easy, they're either very expensive or very busy) which helped a great deal - although not until some time after the fact when you process and understand what they're saying.
They get you only so far - and at that point you'll eventually get the willpower to 'pick yourself up' and start building your life back. It takes time, but it's really worth it.
- Andy.
Re: (Score:2)
That's the crux of the problem. I have an excellent psychiatrist who will not prescribe medication unless you are in active psychotherapy with her. After four years, I am at a point where my anxiety is practically cured as long as I stay on my medication, so I only see her a few times a year now. She is actively involved with all of her patients. The problem out there with too many doctors is that they are, what she calls, "Pil
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It is true that for a significant minority of sufferers of depression, that even trying both of these treatments
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
It's bad everywere. Psychologists are not real mediacal doctors. They are philosophy/humanities students posing as doctors and you're falling for it.
Modern psychology more closely resembles adherance to Galen's anatomy or the teachings of Aristotle. Theories are basically made up out of thin air by lordly academics, then applied to misforunate real people. Experimental confirmation of these often dubious theories is often nonexistant, and even when performed
Re:Psychologists need to learn more than this (Score:5, Insightful)
depressions. I still get them, but by god I know enough about psychology, psychiatry and medication now. There is quackery
on all sides of mental health. You think anybody actually understands the mechanism of antidepressants? Only in a fuzzy
and ad hoc experimental way, the biochemistry is bewildering. Most doctors and even some specialists haven't a clue. What is
scary is the way they are often puppets of the drug companies pushing their latest "cures". The DSM guide is practically
a crock of shite, and all the pros know it is deep in their hearts, but it's the best tool they have and the only
picture of mental dysfunction available as a common reference. Most psychs get the diagnosis wrong for the first
few times, they are too pressured to jump to a conclusion, always get a second and third opinion. The only thing that actually
worked for me was one on one talk therapy, but in most juristictions it's too expensive or simply unavailable on national
health insurance programmes. Funny thing is I studied cognitive science for many years, but that was formal schemas, predicate
logic and Boltzmann machines which obviously had no bearing my own problems. It made interesting conversation with psychologists
though, to be able to correct them when they are getting too fuzzy and explain how neural networks actually function.
Upshot of all is that I still get depressed, less often and less severe, but I manage it, anticipate it and accept it better now.
The best pieces of wisdom I received are roughly as follows, so this might save some of you some money
1) Most the causes *are* deeply rooted in childhood formative experiences and you need to remember your life context
and reinterpret your emotions in that light. Until you do you have no idea what crazy buttons the world is pushing for you.
I think of them as hidden methods in my brain object that get called by backdoor sploits
2) Intelligence works against you. How many blissfully thick people do you know who suffer? Remember that line from the wife of
John Nash in Beautiful Mind - you can't use your mind to fix your mind when the tool itself is broken. By sheer force of will you
can sometimes bootstrap yourself back, but external input is a vital part of an expedient recovery.
3) Depression is a sane reaction to an insane environment. The world is barking insane. It's full of other stupid, lazy, damaged
people (increasing the ones running the show). There is war, misery, death, pointless waste, arrogance, fear, greed... our modern
Western existence is practically designed to send smart people insane. All the things that offer security and continuity in
modern life, the church, the state, employment - those are all fucked, they are crumbling away as we speak.
Most people use two coping mechanisms, denial and distraction. If you can't engage in either of these two self comforting drugs
then you have only one option left, change your environment. Throw out your television. Stop reading the FUD stories on
to provoke insecurity and outrage. Build new friendships and visit new places etc.
4) Acceptance. Get used to the idea that you have a lifelong incurable disease. Understand how it affects your capabilities and
dreams and learn to recognise the signs of the highs and lows. Make hay while the sun shines high and prepare for the winters.
5) Talk to your partner, family and friends. Part of the disease is isolation and trying to fight it on your own. It takes many years
to work out that friends *don't know* you are depressed when you don't call for 4 months because you are up every night hacking away
because it's the only thing that stops you going mental. Tell them and explain your situation and needs. Most will stick by you
and the ones who won't were never your real friends anyway.
Re: (Score:1)
Anyway, good post.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I do disagree about your disdain for the western system. For the most part its a class-free system which does rewards smarts and hard work. Im more than
Action (Score:2)
(Acknowledging that if you can initiate a project like that you're already out of the worst stages of depression).
Re: (Score:1)
This is important. Just acceptance of what you have (or more importantly, what you have been given) is essential to dealing. Taking a 'disorder' and using for good turns that disorder into a benefit; you just have to figure out how to, and sometimes that's p
Re: (Score:2)
I've printed those two paragraphs out and stuck them on my fridge
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Psychologists are not real mediacal[sic] doctors.
That's true, a psychologist with a medical degree would be called a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist is able to prescribe medications as well as using psychotherapy and counselling.
Re: (Score:2)
i think that's important here. before
Re: (Score:1)
Psychologists are not medical doctors, and therefore cannot prescribe medications.
Psychiatrists, however, are medical doctors, thereby rendering your argument null.
Any freshman who took Psych 101 could tell you this. You claim that the entire field of psychology is hocus pocus magic and psychologists/psychiatrists are no more qualified to help you that Miss Cleo, but you clearly haven't read a damn thing on the field. Next time, try doing some research on a subject instea
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Strenuous excercise (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thank you for your response to yet another appeal from the self-righteous neo-Calvinist fitness police, who believe that all personal problems can be solved for all people if they just sweat and suffer enough.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Exercise, like many other activities, provides the depressed with certain tasks that can be acomplished without the danger of falling into typical behaviors of depressed, like excessive ruminating or procrastination. Furthermore, the patient has a feedback from his activity, when he realises how his stamina and strength improves, especially in the f
ECT (Score:1)
Lithium may also work, but from my experance they try to avoid giving you lithium so there's probably something bad about it that they don't put on the leaflet.
Re: (Score:1)
Ketamine (Score:3, Informative)
In my own experience and I recently suffered a very serious depressive episode which resulted in my being absent from work for two months. It went on, seemingly endlessly, with the pills I was presecribed and the counselling making no noticable difference. Until a friend of mine, who had seen the above mentioned study, offered me a line of k. I had only ever taken k once before, about 4 years previous
Re:Psychologists need to learn more than this (Score:4, Informative)
Please don't spread misinformation like that. The action of ketamine is entirely unlike that of SSRIs. Sure they both inhibit some proteins in neurons but hell, if that's your criteria for "works like" you could say aspirin "works like" SSRIs. Your statement is so vague as to be misleading. SSRIs block the reuptake of neurotransmitters presynaptically so that there is more neurotransmitter available to cause a post-synaptic response. Ketamine blocks the postsynaptic NMDA receptor, inhibiting a post-synaptic response. SSRIs work on the serotonin system, ketamine on the glutamate system.
The antidepressant response to ketamine is a truely novel phenomenon. I suspect it has some similarities to the response to electroconvulsive therapy, since many of the same players (NMDA receptor, CaMKII) are involved in each.
In other news involving novel theraputic uses of recreational drugs, MDMA seems to help treat parkinsons symptoms. Check it out at the New Scientist [newscientist.com]. Maybe we can get Michael J. Fox to come out in favor of medicinal MDMA?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Didn't help much. The Ritalin made the few good times exceptionally great but the many bad times... My then girlfriend and now wife describes it in such a way that I'
Re: (Score:1)
Rather than gripe though, here's something useful. From my experience and from talking to others, the best way to fight depression is to exercise. I have
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, they are trying the new "placebo effect" method of psychological therapy. They give you a sugar pill and keep telling you "you're getting better!" until you believe it yourself.
:-)
Actually, your post basically says "depression treatment sucks--it's so depressing!" I find that to be a pretty damned funny statement. Thanks
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
If you met the average medical student, you'd feel the same way.
Interweb (Score:5, Funny)
-Grey [wellingtongrey.net]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
At least the end product doesn't require a tissue though.
Re: (Score:2)
These people would go out to parks and other gathering places, and read out the messages of the Internet to passers-by. People who found the information timely and useful would make small donations of cash, livestock, or wenches.
That way, everyone would be able to learn from the mighty Internet, without sitting in front of their computers all day.
Re: (Score:2)
Always Get The Proper Help (Score:4, Insightful)
I used to have depression, and have only recently (this month) gone back to work. I think these sites are interesting, but use them as an 'extra' to getting proper help. Go and see your doctor, they'll help identify what the best course of action is, and go from there.
Of course, realising that you are depressed isn't easy and realising you need help is even harder. Actually going and getting help is the hardest of all, but you'll never be so glad when you finally do. And remember, your friends and family are there to help too - don't feel embarrassed asking for their help, everyone needs help at sometime in their life
- Andy.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
So as far as the doctor is concerned that site *is* proper help.
Kinda funny to see it on slashdot the next day...
Slashdot as your shrink (Score:1, Funny)
Cuteoverload (Score:2)
Works for me.
Re: (Score:1)
psychotherapist (Score:4, Funny)
There's always a catch (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Computerized therapy (Score:1, Funny)
Why even bother? (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They already do, it doesn't matter. :-(
Funny websites (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Another Site of Interest (Score:4, Informative)
Just thought you may find http://www.beyondblue.org.au/ [beyondblue.org.au] of interest.
Re: (Score:2)
If you answered 'YES' to question 1 and/or 2 and ticked at least three symptoms in the checklist, you probably have a depressive illness.
For more than TWO WEEKS have you:
1. felt sad, down or miserable most of the time? Yes No
2. lost interest or pleasure in most of your usual activities? Yes No
I don't know if that means in the _last_ two weeks or not, but certainly everyone has had a two week period in their life where they felt sad most of t
Interesting stuff (Score:2)
It doesn't work (Score:2)
Personally.... (Score:2, Funny)
It's actually easier than going to websites... (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Hello. I am ELIZA. How can I help you? (Score:1)
"an Australian university"? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
book review... (Score:3, Informative)
Already it has learned me a lot about my complaints, ranging from severe tension problems and psychological problems (which could be categorized as depression, I'm afraid).
It is really written very well and it's worth reading just about every page, but what it boils down to is that people today (and both me and computer programmers in general not in the least) try to rationalize too much of what they feel, or channel it in accepted ways.
For instance, when I was totally angry at a collegue once, but couldn't deal with it appropiately, all I did was go to my boss and say 'I would like to go home now, I cannot concentrate on work any longer'. It went downhill from there because I couldn't cope with being unhappy with the situation (I like to be positive about things, but I couldn't find too much to be positive about). I thought I was going crazy (I was) and my muscles ground my bones to dust every day. On top of that I started to worry about my (mental) health, of course.
For a large part I already learned to accept that I would be so much better off simply finding a more normal place to work (it can be crazy here), but the book gives me insights beyond my current problem. I have not finished it yet, but for the first time I enjoy reading a book that tries to teach me exactly how I am 'crazy'.
Depression: one approach. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
I've been looking at their various websites, as I'm doing a course in hypnotherapy at the moment.
Good luck.
chemical adjustment (Score:1)
My very recent experience with treatment. (Score:2, Interesting)
I have been depressed for the last 2 years or so. I had no idea what was causing it and attempted to take care of it myself.(big mistake) My work performance was declining and the constant stress of completing a simple daily task was causing even more stress and anxiety.
Last April I went to my Dr. and told him my issues, explaining that I had a serious case of loss of concentration, short term memory loss, extreme sadness, and wanting to turn my
Depression can be cyclical (Score:2)
Self-medication (Score:2)
Anything is possible at ZomboCom! The only limit is your imagination! And if that's not uplifting, I don't know what fking is!
Moo (Score:3, Interesting)
I can cure depression. (Score:2)
Buy World of Warcraft, raise a hunter, and either on a PvP server or in a battleground, one-shot a mage with an Aimed Shot critical hit of 2000+ damage. That will cheer you right up. I'm not only the suggestor of this idea, I'm also a client!
Re:The problem, as I see it.. (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't imagine how it's like to drive on the highway with 90 mph and thinking "I might as well turn the steering wheel real quick and be done with it". For weeks on end. Every day.
So cut the "know-it-all" attitude and accept that there are thing you don't know a rat's ass about. Asshole.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Been there, thought that,... even did some trajectory calculations and timings to see if the bridge was empty before I take it out. My problem was that I'm too considerate of others. I didn't want to go fuck up someone else's day. No need to be selfish and take myself out if I also end up smashing a lady's minivan with her 3yo daughter and 8yo son. That'd be stupid.
So yeah. I guess I should score a 'win' for "traffic"?
But I'm glad you made it b
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Psh. If you're gonna do it, at least do it right.
An auto crash may seem appealing because it isn't obviously suicide, so your life insurance will still pay out. But if you pull in to a brick wall at 90mph, insurance is going to give your beneficiaries a very hard time in proving it was not suicide.
No, if you want to do it right
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
I suffer from depression, and my recovery gets prolonged by well wishers who spend their time spouting idiotic comments like you just did.
Depression is NOT the same as feeling a little sad or 'blue'.
It is NOT something you can "just get over it", nor is it something "you brought on yourself".
Do you HAVE to be in a strait jacket, spazzing out to deserve treatment? Where does that put people like me? I've lost my education to it, and all i keep hearing is "Buck up, snap out of it, stop wasting time, Life suck
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Annoying... (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if depression is purely reaction, a being-overwhelmed - once you're choking on insidiously persuasive infinite loops of "I'm filth, everyone can see it, I have no right to ask for help, I have no right to feel better", once self-injury sounds like a perfectly reasonable punishment for being yourself, once meeting your friends makes you cry with fear, once writing, painting, coding, loving, laughing all seem increasingly bizarre - how do you chill out with that shit screaming in your head?
Please excuse the angst and drama. I suppose it's exactly the kind of stuff people love to make fun of... but it's my description of depression. Not a "light" depression, maybe, but what kind of depression could ever be "light"?
Maybe you can chill out in that state and look forward to working on your projects or spending time with your kids or what have you. That's great... quite amazing, actually. And I suppose it does help having built up a sensible life - ideally before falling to pieces. But even then there's no guarantee you'll recognise it once push comes to shove. Well, I guess I shouldn't presume to speak for you.
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
Same thing with ADD kids. I seriously doubt all of the kids have ADD. Most of them could just use sterner discipline. You can't look sideways at a kid today without getting a lawsuit up your ass. I remember getting kicked out of class, having to stay for detention, getting yelled at, etc when I was a shit disturber.
Nowadays kids get away with murder, and what
Re:Annoying... (Score:4, Insightful)
Depression is a very difficult disease to deal with. It's also a complicated disease (or set of diseases) where the symptoms of all the different types of depression are pretty much the same. There are multiple causes and they often feedback on themselves which makes things a whole lot worse. It's not a trite saying to say that depression has a significant fatality rate as a disease. It needs to be treated as a potentially life-threatening disease. But like all diseases, there are various levels of severity ranging from mild to severe.
There's external-induced (events, relationships, or other things not under your control) depression which overloads the individual and causes them to give up hope. That's more amenable to talk therapy or even simple counseling where someone sits down with you and helps you formulate a plan. Some of the exercises are learning how to separate / identify which things you can change and which things are out of your control, then focusing on changing what is possible. Other goals of therapy are to help you identify which thoughts are incorrect views of reality ("everyone thinks that I'm ugly / worthless / stupid / etc") and to take steps to challenge those thoughts. See "Feeling Good" by David D. Burns for a good book about CBT.
Then there's the chemical side of the disease where the brain (other organs) don't make the right chemicals, or the receptors for those chemicals aren't working right. (This is where things get very experimental, theoretical, and understandings are constantly revised.) Even though there are no external events that would seem to cause depression, the individual spends their waking hours in pain and is seriously considering suicide as a viable solution to end the pain. Speech becomes slow and slurred, there's mental confusion, short-term memory issues, and you feel like you're viewing the world through a piece of gauze (or an oily lens).
And the two major sides of the disease often combine in a particular case, making it even more difficult and twisted. They'll feed off of each other, as the individual starts to sabotage relationships which makes them feel even worse as a person. And which also destroys the person's support network (unless the friends understand what is going on, which is rare) making recovery an even more difficult road.
Where things get tricky is that when you are depressed, it is very difficult to seek treatment. Seeking treatment requires you to believe that you can get better, which is 180 degrees in opposition to how you feel about yourself at that point in time. You'll be worried that they'll lock you up (resulting in friends, family, coworkers, bosses thinking that you're simply "crazy"). Or you could simply be worried about being branded as "crazy" or "seeking attention" by the above people. There's a huge social stigma towards mental disease and popular culture (TV, Movies) usually perpetuate the misunderstandings and misinformation in order to make for more 'engaging' story lines.
The reality of the matter is far different. Once you've been through a successful cycle of treatment, a lot of depressives become very outgoing and honest about their disease with others. Basically, you decide that the potential stigma is nothing compared to the pain and suffering that you've been through and that your suffering was increased because you were trying to hide the fact that you have depression. That relieves a lot of the pressure and you start trying to educate people around you about the disease (if they're willing to listen). Often, that forwardness and truthfulness results in someone else realizing (or admitting to themselves) and seeking treatment.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not saying NOBODY has depression. I'm saying a lot of people lead unproductive lives and are "depressed" because of it. It's also a fad thing to have some diesease or another. All the kids are ADD and allergic to peanuts apparently...
All I'm trying to say is there are a lot of hypochondriacs out there who are truly not sick and rob the rest of precious doctor time and medicine.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not what your post sounded like, though. But I think I see what you mean. I don't think I'd like to erect a barrier between the "worthy" depressed and the "fakers". Are we even talking about fakers? I may be naive here, or European, or erring on the side of charity, but who'd resort to faking feeling like shit if they knew other ways to attack their proble