Sony Defends Rumble Loss 145
Eurogamer reports on comments from Sony defending the loss of rumble in the SIXAXIS controller. "'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"
A Poor Tradeoff (Score:5, Insightful)
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Rotation != translation (Score:2)
I work with machines doing 4 axis movement. You can't do everything with only 3 (though with 5 you can fake the 6th).
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Let's assume that our object is a sphere 1 unit in radius, centered on the origin. Applying a force [0, 1, 0] (a unit vector along the Y axis) centered on the origin will cause the sphere to accelerate along the Y axis without turning. However, applying the same force at the edge of the sphere where it intersects th
axis and dimensions are different (Score:2)
Re:A Poor Tradeoff (Score:5, Interesting)
Everything else Sony has done is boneheaded (going for overpriced design, trying to impose BluRay through the PS3, arrogant statements, E3 screwups, poor production management), but on the rumble patent, I do feel for them.
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I have to agree, the Rumble feature, while I feel is an important tool for gaming, would not attribute much to poor sales alone, if they happen. I would predict that it's all about price point, no matter how 'great' a system is. Just look at the NeoGeo.
Actually, I also believe it's n
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1) I don't get it about the vibration thingy. Did y'all really like that? I found it quite anoying and turned it off whenever I could. I just assumed they took it out because of poor responses from focus groups or something. I was quite surprised to hear such a backlash about this. Does this actually either help, or broaden the experience of your gaming? More power to ya and sorry it's gone, but if you(coletively) wouldn't have brought it up, I wouldn't have noticed.
2)High sales numbers be
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Yeah, this is obviously just a case of sour grapes when they were denied the
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Ha! No, of course not. The point is that I have no sympathy for Sony, because they are a terrible abuser of IP laws themselves. They got in a fight with another big IP asshole, Immersion, and lost. Now they pretend as if they never wanted to have rumble anyway.
Assholes they may be, I don't think "sour grapes" applies to
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A better tradeoff (Score:2)
In fact I wonder why no-one is criticizing Microsoft to be the only major console maker to leave out motion tracking technology of any sort. I think they may have to add it later, after the benefits become apparent through a number of Wii and PS3 games. Game makers even in the first generation are coming up wi
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I usually play games on a moderately large screen (actually, it's only a 24" screen, but it's on my desk so I'm close to it) and I usually play with the sound off or down very low. Because of this, I like tactile feedback as a way to let me know that there is something I need to be paying attention to outside of my field of vision. When things are crazy and there are explosions and stuff going on all over the screen, those red flashing things on the sides of the screen
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I am basically saying that if I had to choose one I would seek motion control because immersion in a game for me is enhanced when I have to think less about the control, and motion based input is more natural for control of some elements of many games - when you lean the controller over in a tight turn in a racing game, that will actually do so
Alos, Six Axis an industry standard term (Score:2)
Another term is 6DOF (degrees of freedom) which is a bit more descriptive.
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Do you live in a 6-dimensional world? Really? Tell us what it's like!
What do you think Pitch, Roll, and Yaw refer to? Those would be vertical, horizontal, and fore/aft respectively.
You could invent additional labels to represent the 3 axes of our three dimensional environment, but that doesn't translate into additional axes (although you can translate along an axis... <badu
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You are engaging in equivocation. There are six logically orthogonal dimensions or axes in the SIXAXIS system. The state it returns cannot be fully specified in three dimensions. Yes, it exists in a space with three spatial dimensions, so what? Its state is more than a position in those dimensions.
No, wrong. Pitch refers to rotation around the horizontal axis,
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That does actually make sense, I didn't realize that the controller supported translation and rotation (I was actually under the impression that transation wasn't recognized, and that it basically sensed tilt only).
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Think of it this way you have a front and rear bumper on your car. When you're doing donuts your rear license plate is moving differently than the front license plate. So if you want to be able to do donuts in a game you need to be able to move two points in 3d space or one point in 6d space.
Since when? (Score:5, Insightful)
Talk about desparate...
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Which is why the Xbox is the platform of choice if you're prone to do that. Both my controllers (one super-size original and one smaller S model) both get thrown regularly (and with mucho spite), and, well, you should see the other guys!
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Light is useful for motion (Score:2)
After all, if Sony wanted weight they could just add weights to the controller really cheaply. They kept it light for a reason and I think a good one.
same ol same ol (Score:3, Funny)
Same reasons stated every time some one brings up why thy didn't include both "well, uhh, we can't! umm, money, and weight, umm, yah"
I still like the 150-200 MILLION units being made. because each PS3 realy needs 150-200 controllers.
Chatter? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I've said before that when a company or country gets to the 1.0e7 or 1.0e8 scale, the whole idea of "vote with your dollars" or even plain democracy just simply breaks down. Any negative news is chatter, compared to the background 95-99% of complacent sheeple.
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What "widespread customer outcry"? Doesn't the console need to, y'know, be RELEASED before there can be any "widespread customer outcry"?
A lot of the people who write about the PS3 on the Internet consider the lack of rumble to me a big minus, this is true. But a lot of the people who wrote about the movie "Snakes on a Plane" prior to its release were really positive, and that didn't seem to matter much.
We
That wasnt defending (Score:2)
Its kind of like buying a new fancy lexus with all the bells and whistles and that they took out power stearing. Has all the other fancy things to show off to your friend, but just not power stearing.
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Could be wrong though.
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Holy crap (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried. What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers, but maybe that's why they expect everyone to have so many spares. Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.
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At 800,000 PS3 units, 150-200 million controllers comes out to 187.5-250 controllers per unit.. maths is fun!
Aikon-
Re:Holy crap (Score:4, Funny)
...because, you know, after Nov. 19th, all units will have been sold, and they'll never need to make a PS3 ever again.
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Get off your flame stool! (Score:2)
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I'll give you credit for one thing, not posting anonymously, other than that, your Sony fan selectiveness forgot to point out, he mentioned BOTH competitors, not only Nintendo. Are Sony fans really that scared abo
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Rumble not that important (Score:2, Insightful)
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batteries (Score:1, Interesting)
Your general consumers will probably feel something missing and be a little upset, I also agree though, giving me poor motion control over rumble = a bad move. Personally I can't stand people who turn the joystick all over the plac
Yeah, mark my words! (Score:3, Funny)
Rumble is over-rated (Score:2)
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With the right sound system, you get a better "rumble" than through the little buzzer in the controller.
Weight and design philosophy (Score:4, Interesting)
This is exactly what I'm concerned about, there is such a thing as having a controller that's "too light". After a point, it just feels flimsy and cheap, and becomes a constant reminder that it's a toy. The Dualshock controllers were quite good, just the right amount of weight, any lighter, and it begin to feel cheap. I do use Wavebird GCN controllers, but those are a little larger, giving them a bit more weight than the SIXAXIS will probably have, and I still wish (for all their greatness) they had a little more heft to them.
The PS3 is a $600 console, it's being marketted as a media entertainment center, and as something slightly more sophisticated than JUST a game console (supposedly), having a really light-weight controller is sort of going against their overarching image.
Which brings me to another point. What is Sony's overarching philosophy for this console? They don't seem to have a very unified idea in mind: art-deco looking console, utilitarian interface, lightweight controllers with motion sensors, with an Xtreme Gen Y sounding name... all these things really don't fit together to create a unified whole. If it has no unique feel in mind, then why should I buy it over the other guys' consoles? Nintendo spent YEARS developing a finely crafted gestalt that followed their unique philosophy on gaming, so much that the Wii almost has a living, breathing, personality. Microsoft a bit less so, but they've at least met the status quo in terms of having a unified feel (it's just not that original). But the PS3 just seems schizophrenic, it has no gestalit. It's as if each piece was designed completely independantly and the thing was just thrown together. Seriously, why should I get excited about something that was built with such an unprofessional looking attitude in design philosophy? While Joe Public may not be analyzing it like this, it comes across, subliminaly, as being unsure of itself and unable to deliver a really solid feel that will win people over.
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1) How heavy is your TV remote?
2) I imagine most of the weight in the DualShocks were the rumble motors.
3) If you really need the weight, wait for my new patented Gravity Enhancer for the sixAxis controller. Don't mind that its basically a lead weight and a mini-tube of crazy-glue. Letting the customer assemble the pieces helps us keep the price down.
(I also plan on introducing a rumble add-on that uses an electric plug
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This isn't a valid argument; you don't hold your TV remote for extended periods of time. You do with a game controller. I agree with "there is such a thing as too light"; I found the N64 controller without a Rumble Pak to be disconcertingly light.
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Seems like death throes to me. (Score:2)
Translation (Score:2)
Sony thinks they're cute: (Score:1)
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Axes. These pseudo-Latin plurals are really getting on my nerves (at least "axii" isn't quite as bad as "virii" where people, invent not one but two "i")
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NATURE'S HARMONIC SIMULTANEOUS 6-DAY SIXAXIS (Score:2)
Sixaxis Creation Power,
then you are android dumb,
educated singularity stupid
and unworthy of existence -
with your death as positive.
Killing you is not immoral -
only unlawful by WiiMen.
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This will cause loss of market share (Score:1)
Has everything to do with litigation (Score:2)
fwiw, Microsoft also infringed in the XBox controller, but chose
Defend, but successfully? (Score:4, Interesting)
When Sony was first asked why rumble was missing, they told us it was technically impossible/too difficult to do with the new tilt sensing. That wasn't infeasible, but highly disappointing. Then the lid was blown off of that.
Now Sony has changed their tune. It's a matter of price. The cost of $.01 over 150 million controllers is non-trivial. That seems feasible, why didn't you say that in the first place? Why does your controller cost $50 when you're saving us money? How is it that Nintendo's more advanced controller that features rumble, motion sensing, and even a speaker is $10 less than your controller until you start buy an addon which also features motion sensing? (Microsoft, you've got some explaining to do too)
The waffling about this doesn't alleviate the suspicion that Sony remove the rumble because of the lawsuit against them. We're not convinced you're trying to save us money when you're charging $500 to $600 for your system, in excess of $60 for games, and $50 for controllers. The original suspicion, that you're too arrogant and sour to suck it up and pay someone else for their proprietary technology, sadly fits the facts far better than anything you've told us yet. Given that the settlement for the lawsuit was around $100 million for years worth of controllers and games it doesn't strike me that the cost of working with Immersion is really so terrible a thing.
This isn't a defense, it's an excuse. I've never gotten the impression from any Sony representative that they are actually sad to see rumble go. The words of Sony aren't the sad, but necessary statements that game and hardware designers make as reality defeats cool concepts and ideas. They are distractions and red herrings from a ugliness Sony had hoped we wouldn't see.
Honesty will get you a lot farther than lies "chatter"ing through your teeth.
Give us functions we don't need instead of rumble. (Score:2)
Sony is trying to hype again. They claim they didn't take down Lik-sang, now they are trying
Re:Give us functions we don't need instead of rumb (Score:2)
As for Sixaxis - you are an idiot if you think that brings nothing to the table as far
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Yes wireless is important but Blue tooth again isn't something you need to trade for rumble. 360 has wireless AND rumble. Wii has wireless, motion detection and rumble. See where this is going? Sony is missing a valuable piece. It might not be important but acting like it's a good thing they skipped rumbl
Different but good (Score:2)
However that does not invalidate the kinds of things that developers are doing today with the PS3 controller. From more natural flight control in games like Lair or Warhawks, to body checking in hockey games there are some cool control enhancements going in that I, as a gamer, am looking forward to. B
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That's exactly why one can be excited about the Wii and not the PS3's motion sensing. The whole concept is different.
The Wii offers a 'wand' that allows usage like every-day object. Golf clubs, tennis rackets, swords, guns, etc. You get more of a feeling that you are in the game.
The PS3 version allows... Uhh... Oh wait, they haven't really sai
Also (Score:2)
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It's obvious how to hold the Wiimote to make it act like a golf club. But how to hold the sixaxis? This is just a dual-shock-shaped controller. Do I hold it by one of the 2 handles and hope I don't accidentally let it go, since I can't really get my hand all the way around it? Do I have to let go of it completely and then re-grip it in the middle? Do I hold it like normal, where the flexibility of the
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Modern accelerometers are extremely sensitive - both should be really smooth. That's not going to be an issue. It should be able to measure if you're moving in any direction or twisting to the smallest degree.
It's the same kind of things they use in laptops to park the HD's, and that people have hacked into things like the Smackbook (tapping side of laptop switches apps) or the lightsaber mod that makes
not a big deal for me (Score:3, Insightful)
with enough customer grumbling, sony will eventually get rumbling.
(wow that was horrible :-P)
Easy Example: PCs and CounterStrike (Score:3, Insightful)
Take a look at gaming on the PC side and it is devoid of rumble and trust me when I say Logitech and Microsoft would like nothing better than to sell you something that "rumbles" especially a gamer thinks they need but it never took off. I don't think World of Warcraft needs rumble and if CounterStrike players don't notice it and The Sims can't use it effectively, just how "important" is rumble? These are some of the most played, highest selling games in the history of gaming running rings around some of the best console titles and yet none of them are eager to have rumble. I guess the PC side of gaming has been missing out on...something.
So what are these games that really need rumble? The only reason to keep rumble in would have been "it is cheap". With Immersion, there is really no surprise it is gone.
Rumble is inherently different from other feedback (Score:2, Insightful)
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If by "most next-gen controller designs", you mean "Sony's next-gen controller design", then I guess you're correct. However, both Microsoft and Nintendo are still doing rumble and wireless. Nintendo's even doing the whole "tilt" thing that Sony slapped into their controller at the last minute. So tell me agai
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Lack of Rumble is not a feature (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a load of BS.
Reading through the comments, it's obvious that there are many people that like it, and many people that don't. And you know what? They all know how to turn it off in the settings. Simple enough.
Now you can argue that it should be off by default, but most folks LIKE the feature. So the majority overrule your person
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On many games I will agree that the rumble feature is a tacked-on gimmick. Usually, it is a used to physically "punish" the player for receiving damage. However, one well-reviewed game that used rumble effectively as an integral gameplay feature was Rockstar's Table Tennis. There are no visual or audio cues to tell when you are aiming your shot out of bounds. It is done completely with the intensity of the rumble in the gamepad. This is an extremely intuitive use of the rumble feature that allows a minimal