Great Programmers Answer Questions From Aspiring Student 347
NathanBFH writes "Many of the questions that make it to the Ask Slashdot pages come from young and aspiring programmers wanting to know the role math and education play in the profession, or what makes certain programmers so much more productive than others, or what the future of the craft will look like. One young programmer by the name of Jarosaw "sztywny" Rzeszótko decided to ask these types of questions (and more) to the programmers he admired the most who also, it turns out, happen to be some of the most influential computer scientists and programmers of the last several decades. The result? Most of them happily responded. The results include the following: Linus Torvalds (Linux), Bjarne Stroustrup (C++), James Gosling (Java), Tim Bray (XML, Atom), Guido Van Rossum (Python), Dave Thomas (Pragmatic Programmer), David Heinemeier Hansson (Rails Framework), and Googlers Steve Yegge and Peter Norvig."
Re:What makes a programmer great? (Score:3, Insightful)
no Knuth ? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the questions that are important... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:a sample (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure you can program fine in C. But knowing low-level assembly or even machine code can make the difference between a mediocre C programmer and a brilliant one. Similarly, knowing LISP makes you think differently about how lists work within your C programs. And so on....
These guys all come from different backgrounds and have made substantial efforts to keep their knowledge honed. They also have very open minds to new ideas - (Except for Bjarne who just sounds like a grumpy bugger).
Re:An interesting observation (Score:4, Insightful)
Math (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, a self-taught programmer often sees pretty much everything as "programming". "Math" is then algebra and all that boring stuff they learned in school like trigonometry, which they never use when coding. From this point of view, graphs, trees, recursion, etc are just programming concepts and not seen as necessarily related to the underlying mathematics.
This seems to explain the confusion that occurs when a student asks "do I need math?" to an experienced professional. The student understands math as in elementary algebra, trigonomery, derivation and matrices, and wonders what's the point all of all that when probably nowhere in the Linux kernel there's any need to derivate anything.
Re:Notice the trend (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe the opposite. I think people are an infinite well of potential, their decisions shape their potential. I think whether or not you become a great artist is almost solely a function of how much you choose to dedicate yourself to it. People shape themselves into great things all the time, and things they never actually intended to be nor thought they had any potential for.
I think it's a matter of mental blocks. If a person believes they can't be an artist, then they're not going to put in the necessary effort to make it happen. They won't spend anytime contemplating things like form and composition, not because they inherently lack the capacity to understand it, but because they refuse to. If they lift that mental block and purge the self-defeatist mentality, they can become as great an artists as anyone else, regardless of where their prior talent was.
Re:a sample (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe Lisp shouldn't be a first language in college, so the people who do come to it can appreciate it more. That way they have the fundamentals that occur in any programming language well out of the way.
ROTFL (was Re:An interesting observation) (Score:4, Insightful)
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak (write) and remove all doubt 8-)
Something I noticed about all their answers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Notice the trend (Score:4, Insightful)
Not true. Some people are clearly more gifted in certain areas than others. Peoples' brains develop differently and different task competencies arise from parts of the brain that are more or less effective in different people.
While it's true that in many fields one can become an expert through years of hard work overcoming natural limits or through years of easier work in a field they are gifted in, only someone who is naturally gifted and a hard worked can aspire to and achieve recognition as a genius in their field.
Given your example, despite my huge intellect, no matter how much I studied I would still not have the skills of composition and form of Rembrandt or Michaelangelo. I'm sure, however, that I could be a quite accomplished painter but I don't have the genius for it that these men do.
Let me close with by stating that the Standard Social Science Model (where all intellectual skills are culturally determined) is bunk. Just as some people are taller or shorter, blacker or whiter, faster or slower, some people are smarter or dumber. Just as some people have stronger upper bodies or stronger lower bodies, are faster runners or swimmers or rowers or powerlifters, the brain is modular and people are better or worse at math, music, logic, spirituality, face recognition, self-control, and many of the other functions of the brain. These genetic differences in intellectual ability are just as important as the intellectual environment and need to be aligned with it in order to achieve genius-level work.
Programmer productivity (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I wasn't too impressed with the answers to the productivity question.
While general intelligence doesn't hurt, I think the real key to productivity comes down to maintaining an interest/passion in the craft of designing and writing code. If you care about it then you will always be trying new techniques and paying attention to lessons that can be learned. At the neurological level, one only learns (lays down new memories) for something if one is paying attention to it, and form the strongest memories when there is emotion attached to the experience (totally different areas of the brain are used for emotional memories).
A "blah" programmer just trudges through his/her work without ever really paying attention and trying to learn - they just want to get the job done and go home. A programmer more likely to climb the productivity curve will be always be excited about what they are doing, trying to do it in the best/most consise way (I'd even say correct - many probloems do have minimal solutions that can be found), trying new techniques, etc.
It's too bad that the reality of difference in programmer producticvity isn't better understood, or there might be less outsourcing. The whole premise of outsourcing is that programmers are equivalent and therefore cheaper means better value... Personally I'd prefer to seek out the programmers who are 10-20x more productive than the herd and pay them 2 x normal rather than outsource to some Indian college graduate and pay them 1/3 x normal.
Re:It's not the questions that are important... (Score:1, Insightful)
you noob go to books, online, and other abuse
Whether or not that's appropriate depends both upon the question and the relationship between the individuals. When answering a basic question, it's important to point out to the new person how to answer the question for themselves. For example, if you ask how printf works, I can explain it, then point you to the man page, then explain man pages. This is perfectly reasonable, as I look at man pages to answer questions I have, and am likely to do so to answer your question - why not teach you how to cut me out of the cycle? It's a waste of both our time if you *always* have to come to me for answers. It also handicaps you, because you never learn how to find the answer for yourself.
Then, there are also appropriate times to ask, "Have you read the manual?" If the person you're talking to knows about the manual, but may not have read it. Or, they may have read it but not understood it. Or, they may not have known where to find the manual.
Then, there are the (hopefully) rare cases where someone refuses to learn on their own. If you don't want to learn, and don't try to learn, and have had the manual pointed out to you hundreds of times, before, it can be perfeclty reasonable to say, "read the manual, then ask me about the parts you don't understand".
And, finally, some people just don't want to be mentors. They may be uninterested, or they may be unable to do so. And that's perfectly fine - their responsibilties and priorities are not yours, so trying to apply yours to them is inappropriate.
Re:Something I noticed about all their answers (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't have to know everything to use this test, every programmer carries several API's around in their head that they used last week or whatever, thing is: it's unusual for two programmers to carry the same API's at the same time.
Re:What makes a programmer great? (Score:2, Insightful)
"recent"? I have been hearing (and using) that term at least since the 80s. Even back then, it was so common that even in the "Max Headroom" series, the computer hacker-type characters exclaimed "elegant!" when looking a well crafted system.
Believe me, "elegant" is neither a new fad nor a buzzword. It's simply a generic term used to mean "simple, clean, performant, comprehensible and maintainable"; that is, everything you said, but with less waste of bandwidth
Be careful when calling a word you never heard before a "buzzword". It might be a legitimate term you just happen to never have heard before, and end up looking like a newb
Re:Math (Score:3, Insightful)
In university, however, calculus is what is used to prove that you have what it takes to succeed in Discrete Mathematics or Matrix and Linear Algebra. Admittedly it doesn't take these courses to 'program', but they are essential if you want a deep understanding of why 90% of computer science theory is the way it is.
Programming is all some people aspire to... and in a lot of ways it is superior to the theoretical stuff that goes on at a university. Practical, real world solutions are what most people value. However, R&D is what drives innovation and this is the world where the theory is critical. If you think you can make an algorithm faster than quicksort or mergesort, you better have a damn good understanding of why they run in O(n log n)... These kind of problems are language-agnostic... it doesn't matter your mastery of C++, you can make solutions in pseudo-code for all anyone cares... it's the concepts that matter here not the language. The programming is just the implementation of it.
Programming can be taught to anyone at ITT Tech or by Sam's 24-hour books. It's not that hard to do and that's why jobs are being shipped overseas. Anyone can do it. The hardcore, deep level theory stuff can't be done by just anyone. Personally, I can't even do it. A BS in computer science only get's you so far into the theoretical... but at least now I can really understand the value in it.
As for the Linux kernel, I don't know if it does or doesn't have any superficial "real math" in it... (i haven't studied it) but I guaran-damn-tee you that it has cutting edge computer science concepts involved in it.... the developers may have themselves been innovative in using these or they may have been standing on the shoulders of giants, but trust me, to fully understand what happens in a modern OS you need some good math. It's a fact.
Re:An interesting observation (Score:4, Insightful)
programmers program, designers design. that's why.
Re:no Knuth ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Notice the trend (Score:2, Insightful)
Solving trivial problems poorly can be easy; solving interesting problems, or trivial problems in interesting and elegant ways, is not easy.
My apologies in advance if you're a Turing Prize winner.
Re:Math (Score:3, Insightful)
RMS (Score:3, Insightful)
No RMS [google.com], what a pity.
Re:no Knuth ? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are taking the quotes completely out of context, Torvalds wrote that minix was brain-dead, not him. It's hyperbole, not a personal attack. Tanenbaum obviously made the grade comment in jest. The actual quote is
including smiley, and then later
He was trying to be light and funny, Tanenbaum isn't an idiot. He knew linux was a solid OS, he just disagreed with how it was made, the philosophies behind it. Ohh, and by the way, this is how Torvalds responded:
Yeah, they really seem to hate eachothers guts.
Just to ram my point home, this is how Torvalds ended his first message
Two smart people having a debate. They have different philosophies, true, but they do have respect for eachother. Torvalds even says in Just for Fun that one of the major inspirations for Linux was Tanenbaums work.
Dude, if you are going to bring out the "have you even read..."-argument, make sure that YOU actually have read it. Otherwise, there is a big chance that you will look stupid, and no one wants that.
Re:What makes a programmer great? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a difference between knowing how to program and knowing a language. If you really know how to program, then learning a new language basically amounts to finding a syntax reference for that language.
Re:Interesting Responses (Score:3, Insightful)