Is Backyard Wind Power Worth It? 475
eldavojohn wonders: "In the October IEEE Spectrum magazine, I read an article on backyard windmills and their growing feasibility. With the lowest model's price tag, it's about $9,000 and lasts for around 100,000 kilowatt-hours (20 year life), which results in 9 cents per kilowatt-hour. Now, the article mentions that if the market takes off, that price will drop. However, I was wondering what price range the windmills would have to fall to (or the energy rates have to rise to) before I could consider this? Well, the price of the windmills in the article are out of my price range right now. I don't imagine many Americans have $8k-$11k laying around and the current month's rates for energy in my neighborhood are 2.2 cents/kWh for the first 800 kWh and 1.2 cents/kWh after. I was wondering what are your thoughts on being an early adopter of wind energy? Do you think that if enough people bought these windmills, the price per kWh could compete with the local power grid's? Will it ever?"
To avoid a few flamewars. (Score:5, Interesting)
2) Yes, it has the non-financial benefit of being earth-friendly, which isn't necessarily captured in a financial analysis. (Saves people from lecturing others that money isn't everything.)
3) Yes, it would probably save you money if the appropriate goods were taxed to reflect their environmental costs. What the appropriate externality compensation would be depends on your ideology, so if you wanted people to use less fuel anyway, you probably think these costs are HUGE.
4) Yes, we know that alone, windmills won't solve all energy problems. No one thinks that.
5) Yes, some birds are killed from these. No one cares, since tall buildings kill a lot more.
Does that about cover it?
They need to make more "noise" (Score:5, Interesting)
With rising energy costs, global warming, and environmental concerns, I think the answer to your final question is a resounding "maybe".
This same energy-conservation trend has shown itself in hybrid vehicles. The first hybrids were priced almost twice the cost of regular vehicles. So people doing the math and asking themselves the same questions you are about wind power. However, as popularity grew and more hybrid vehicle models became available, the prices became more competitive. Even the government has gotten involved in many areas by offering tax cuts, toll leniencies, and access to restricted lanes as incentives. While many people would argue that it still isn't cost-effective to purchase a hybrid, there have been over a million sold.
I think there are other benefits that can be said about windmills. I remember reading a report once which showed that minor improvements to homes (new paint, adding walk-in closets, new windows) increased sale prices by way more than was invested. How much more could you get for a house when you tell a potential buyer that their electricity bill will be 20-90% less other homes because of the big fan in the backyard? I'm willing to bet it would sell for at least $10k more in most areas.
So returning to your second question, I think the outcome of windmills will indeed be determined by their popularity. If they catch on, I think production will diversify and the government will get involved to offer incentives. However, the article itself says "the SkyStream turbine is not meant to wean you from the grid completely".
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"A man is asked if he is wise or not. He replies that he is otherwise" ~Mao Zedong
Re:Is it also worth the drama? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Is it also worth the drama? (Score:4, Interesting)
Over here someone went to repaint their house as the CCNRs mandated (in all fairness the paint was looking tired).
Once the painters were out a neighbor threw a fit that the color was too brigt to be allowed. Whole thing ended up on the local news and in court!
The real kicker? The painters were painting the house the exact same friggin shade of color. They color matched to some of the paint under the eves where it was not yet sun-fadded.
There's nothing like putting your foot in a drama queens ass in court, especially when they are the ones pressing charges and the judge holds them down for said foot insertion
Needless to say the home owner won, but they did not get to counter-sue for court costs (so their insurance paid) and their home-owners quietly dropped them after the renewal period the following year was over.
-nB
Re:To avoid a few flamewars. (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.otherpower.com/bartmil.html [otherpower.com]
-nB
solw dwon cbowoy i'ts been one minute since your last confession. wait... wrong forum.
Re:Not the way you described it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Solar panels (Score:5, Interesting)
A windmill is too big and too much of an eyesore to be installed in backyards.
They don't have to be eyesores [windside.com].
Re:Is it also worth the drama? (Score:3, Interesting)
Her reply was, "I am planning on having a garden and planting tomatoes. And planting them along a fenc means you don't need to buy tomato stakes.".
After that, the relitor purposly avoided showing homes in areas with associations. So yea, definatly look for them and avoid it. Most people might be surprised at what limits they will have on thier own property if a home owners association exists. It might even be worse then renting. And most association have ways to change the rules if they don't like what you are doing. It could get nasty really quick.
Only works if it's too windy to live there. (Score:3, Interesting)
Wind turbines are only useful if the average wind speed is above 10 mph. The unit illustrated doesn't even cut in until 8 mph, and achieves its rated output at a wind speed of 20 mph.
Unless you're in an area with wind speeds like that, a wind turbine is a waste of time. Most people don't live in areas that windy; it's not comfortable. I've known people along the California coast who have useful wind turbines, but that's a special situation, where you have reliable medium-speed wind all year because of the ocean/land temperature difference. The serious California wind farms are in mountain passes or at desert/mountain boundaries, where the geography guarantees wind. Also, wind speeds are higher a few hundred feet up, which is why the really big wind machines on the high towers work even in flat terrain. A little turbine in your back yard probably is just going to sit there, stationary, most of the time.
If you're thinking of getting a wind turbine, put up a pole with one of those little "weather station" units that has an anemometer, and log wind speeds for a year. For a few hundred dollars, you'll find out if it's going to work.
If you can hang a wind chime outside your house and it doesn't drive you nuts with constant clanging, your location is not suitable for wind power.
This is all complete bullshit. (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Not the way you described it. (Score:1, Interesting)
Oh, and there is maintenance.
I've looked at them too, because I live on a high hill with plenty of regular wind, but these are a rural/large lot option and therefore aren't for everyone -- many still need a wide area for support wires for the tower and if not, they still need some distance between you and the inevitable overly fussy neighbors.
By contrast, solar panels can be confined to a roof, so they could be easily deployed in a city (though arguments about shading by adjacent buildings or trees would be interesting). Unfortunatley, they're also very expensive, but at least the maintenance is low.
Re:Is it also worth the drama? (Score:2, Interesting)
So, even if the efficiencies are high enough in the lab, and even if homeowners start driving prices down through economies of scale, and even if no one complains about their view being corrupted by dozens of spinning blades, there are still a host of difficult barriers here.
Seems to me that wind micropower is going to be popular for ranches and remote households, just like the windmills of old, and not many others.
Re:Solar panels (Score:5, Interesting)
I have seen much mor offending things than a few windmills in the scenery
I suppose they'd complain about these [wikimedia.org] too.
Re:But without an association (Score:3, Interesting)
These aren't the types of things HOAs generally address. These are regulated by zoning and ordinances. If an HOA is involved, their role is simply reporting it to the governing authority. If it's a real problem, discuss it with your city's codes and zoning department. But as a last resort, calling the city is like using nuclear weapons, it better be worth the cost. (these things tend to get nasty)
HOAs put their attention to 'quality of life' issues. They may place covenants on your deed that says you have to maintain X amount of landscaping, and what type. They may limit the color you can use to paint your house. In the past I have heard of HOAs requiring all homes to use cedar shake roofs. And one locally had a requirement that ALL cars must be parked in garages overnight. They might also forbid RVs and boats from being stored on your property.
The big difference? The city can attach or condemn your property if you're not within ordinances. They can also put you in jail. A HOA can simply sue you.
Re:They need to make more "noise" (Score:3, Interesting)
For those who still maintain that arguement, here are a few things to keep in mind. The initial study made some assumptions.
1, The battery will die shortly after the 100,000 mile warrenty leaving a 5,000 repair bill every 5 years of ownership.
2. Gas prices are $1.50 to $1.80 per gallon.
3. You drive less than 10,000 miles per year
4. Your car depreciates faster than a traditional car due to the expected cost of changing the battery.
Now that data is in,
The 100-150K mile or 5 year battery failuere is a myth. Active agressive state of charge management has proven itself. Look online for Prius battery failure rates. The battery replacement cost is closer to $3K instead of $5K. It is cheaper to replace the battery at 150,000 miles than it is to replace the transmission on many other cars at the same milage. For those worried about the Prius transmission, it has 7 moving parts. None of the parts are a clutch, shifting, or friction part. It is a fixed planitary gear set with very little that can go wrong.
Gas prices are way over $2.00 per gallon and have little chance of going under $2.00/gallon for any extended period of time.
Commuters who put on 15K or more per year bought them including myself.
My 02 Prius has depreciated far less then the family 02 Dodge Caravan of the same purchase price.
In short the new study shows a Hybrid payback time is about 3 years if you drive 15K miles a year. Instead of the battery being a 5K liability, the resale value over a regular car is about $8K better.
For those who want to do the math, my old car got about 26 miles/gallon. I'm averaging 45 miles/gallon now. I drive 18,000 miles per year. Resale value shows this when I do a Google Search. Toyota Prius (2002) Prius. $16350 - $17400. (Blue Book Retail Value). Although Toyota's hybrid-powered four-door, five-passenger sedan might look a little and the other vehicle..My wife's same year minivan on the other hand is valued at 2002 Dodge Caravan. 2002 Dodge Caravan Kelley Blue Book Price, $8250 - $11850. I bought my Prius used for $18K in 2003. Do the math and you will know why I'm smiling all the way to the bank. It has lost less than $2000 in depreciation in the 3 years I have owned it. No other car I have ever owned has done that except a 1968 VW beetle I spent $600.00 to buy.
Gas cost for 18,000 miles at $3/gallon at 30MPG is 1,800/year. Gas cost at 45MPG is $1,200/year. In 5 years my gas savings is $3.000 Not bad savings in 5 years or 90,000 miles. This does not cover lower maitnance costs or lower depreciation. Add those in and mine as paid the additional $5,000 cost for the hybrid technology already by a long shot. The van had shot brakes at 60K miles. I had the Prius brakes checked at 60K miles. I was told I have 80% of the pads left. Oil changes ar at 7K miles instead of 3K miles and the oil is clean at the oil change, not black. Regenerative braking saves a lot of wear and tear.
Build your own! (Score:3, Interesting)
What about solar power? (Score:2, Interesting)