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Why Torvalds is Sitting out the GPLv3 Process 365

Posted by Zonk
from the sidelines dept.
lisah writes "Linus Torvalds has a lot of reasons for not wanting to participate in drafting the third version of the GNU General Public License (GPL): He doesn't like meetings, says committees don't make sense, has philosophical differences with the Free Software Foundation, and seems to be generally distrustful of the whole drafting process. Though Torvalds prefers the GPLv2, he says if others prefer the GPLv3, they ought to support it because 'it's not like it kills and eats small children for breakfast, and must never be allowed.'" Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
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Why Torvalds is Sitting out the GPLv3 Process

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  • by pieterh (196118) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @11:53AM (#16200299) Homepage
    If you want to contribute to the GPLv3, you can. The FFII, for example, proposed some changes that would clarify the GPLv3 with respect to patent law in Europe (the current draft is too US-biased).

    Torvalds doesn't need to contribute, but I'm glad he's moved to a more neutral stance. The GPLv2 is old and out of date and though it still works today, will start to crumble in a few years.

    In every new project my firm does, we end up adding our own conditions onto the GPL3 (for instance for patents) and it'd be far better to have these defined as standard.

    It's good to be critical of processes that aren't clear, and it's entirely possible that the FSF won't be able to produce a worthy successor to GPLv2, which is an incredibly important document in the history of software, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
  • by El Cubano (631386) <roberto@@@connexer...com> on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @11:57AM (#16200379) Homepage

    Torvalds may not like the GPLv3. However, I think that is orthogonal to why he is sitting out the process. At heart, the man is an engineer/coder. How many people work as software engineers/programmers/code monkeys/whatever and jump at the shot to sit in the "politcal" meetings? Seriously. As a general rule, engineers and programmers would rather be engineering and programming. They don't care so much about marketing. They don't care so much about the political undercurrents of the organization. They just want to do their job well.

  • by mellonhead (137423) <slashdot@sw[ ]l.net ['bel' in gap]> on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:08PM (#16200543) Homepage Journal
    The GPLv2 is old and out of date and though it still works today, will start to crumble in a few years.
    Please explain how a license can "crumble".
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:09PM (#16200557)
    Why do you think that any sensible suggestion you do will make it into the GPLv3? The process itself is fundamentally closed (you don get to see the communication that goes inside), undemocratic (no vote) and totalitarian thing: the president of the FSF (Richard Stallman) decides alone what goes into the license and what doesnt.

    (You might argue that Linux is totalitarian too, but besides the point that it isnt, you can fork Linux if you think you can do better, while you cannot fork the FSF license creation process. That's why it's so scary.)

  • by hummassa (157160) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:11PM (#16200591) Homepage Journal
    I have actively participated in the debate about the clause 0 defect of the GPLv2 ("that is to say...") and I became satisfied that it is in good shape for the GPLv3.
  • by CaymanIslandCarpedie (868408) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:17PM (#16200687) Journal
    But for many people (Linus included) those "loopholes" are features not bugs. Those holding views can argue those features are what caused GPL 2 to be so widely adopted and that the "fixes" in v3 will cause v3 to "crumble" (ie nobody using it).
  • by oohshiny (998054) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:38PM (#16200961)
    Linus doesn't have a choice in the matter: since the kernel is under GPLv2 without an "or later" clause, he can't change it. The Linux kernel is stuck with GPLv2. For him to argue one way or the other is pointless and sounds like post-hoc rationalizing.

    Personally, I think the GPLv2 will sooner or later kill the Linux kernel. Some highly successful embedded Linux systems like the WRT54G only became hackable because the manufacturers made a mistake. Evidently, embedded users of Linux just don't get the benefits of openness, and they'll get better and better at circumventing the GPLv2; the GPLv2 will turn more and more into a kind of encumbered BSD license, and you can see how well BSD did with that.

    Of course, I'm not too concerned. I think we really need a successor to the Linux kernel anyway, yet the industry is happy to keep running a 30 year old kernel design. If being increasingly the target of GPL circumvention is what it takes to motivate people to move to a new kernel, that's fine with me, too.
  • by GigsVT (208848) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @12:59PM (#16201273) Journal
    The history of open source is littered with BSD-based empty victories like this. Look at SPICE, it's been consumed into expensive proprietary products and has almost died as an open source product.

    PostgreSQL, while an excellent product that I still use often, is stagnating while MySQL slowly surpasses it in every way.

    I think we should save BSD for simple things such as glue libraries and reference implementations.
  • by SanityInAnarchy (655584) <ninja@slaphack.com> on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @01:08PM (#16201393) Journal
    I keep going over and over this, and I still can't figure out why Linus would want Linux to be able to be Tivo-ized, but not want it BSD-licensed. Can you explain to me what it is about these specific loopholes that makes them so much more desirable than people taking your code wholesale and making it into a proprietary program?
  • by browncs (447083) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @01:20PM (#16201539)
    1. RMS and the FSF (which are one and the same for all practical purposes) talk
      about "free software". What they are truly fundamentally about is
      creating a comprehensive category of software which is completely free from
      corporate/business control, and which individual users can completely control in
      all aspects as they wish.

      His fundamental motivation is an anti-corporation, pro-individual/community
      point of view. The fact that the mechanism for enabling his version of
      "free software" is the GPL and a common pool of open source is
      secondary. If he could have gotten a global law enforced that all corporations
      must release all their source code freely on the Internet, that's what he would
      have done, instead of GNU and GPL.

      RMS is an absolutist on this point. He truly sees this as good vs. evil, and as
      a belief system about which there can be no question.

      To help understand this, http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID =9350 [zmag.org]
      read this interview.

      This is where the insistence that DRM and "Trusted Computing" and
      software patents must be abolished comes from. These are all tools that
      corporations use to protect their property. RMS does not believe they should
      have property like this... that it should all be made available to users with no
      control by corporations.

    2. Linux is also licensed under the GPL (v2), but comes from a completely
      different motivation than RMS. Torvalds simply believes the open-source
      development model is the most effective way to create excellent software.
      Torvalds is just fine with corporations and businesses using Linux for profit,
      even if that means "controlling" some aspects of its use. He
      certainly has opinions on DRM, patents, and "Trusted Computing", but
      he's not going to let those get in the way of Linux development.

    3. So now starts the struggle for control of "what is the meaning of free
      software". RMS is clearly trying to re-establish his vision of the
      principles involved by pushing through GPL v3, because he's seen GPL v2 used in
      ways that offend his principles deeply. Is it too late? Has the FOSS movement
      taken off to an extent that he no longer controls it? Stay tuned.
  • by crotherm (160925) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @03:50PM (#16204257) Journal


    Uhh, wasn't the fact that BSD was under the cloud of copyright infringement with AT&T's Sys V that caused BSD's slow usage? Linux came in right at that time to steal what could have been BSD's thunder.

    At least that is how this old dude remembers it.

    And Solaris is a straw man. SunsOS 4.x and older was BSD based. And what NFS, NIS, etc are nothing? As for SunOS 5.x, which is more commonly refered to Solaris, is Sys V Rel 3 based.

  • by on (180412) on Tuesday September 26, 2006 @04:53PM (#16205537) Homepage
    Software patents are not valid in europe - now why would anyone on this side of the atlantic want to license anything under GPLv3?

    Does anyone know if software patents are valid in Asia?
  • by cas2000 (148703) on Friday September 29, 2006 @07:12PM (#16253559)

    Also, if you can verify the count, you've effectively got verification that there aren't fraudulent votes, because that would mean displacing legitimate votes, meaning someone's vote wouldn't be counted.

    that might be true if everyone voted, but not when you don't have compulsory voting...and not when you don't even get close to 100% turnout of those who are registered to vote.

    electronic data is too malleable, too easy to manipulate without any trace to trust with something this important.

    Again, a Luddite statement. We're debating in a void without actually knowing what this system was, but consider signatures. Surely you'll admit that a signature is important, right? You don't want someone to be able to sign checks in your name. Now, they know what your signature is by comparing it to the copy they have on file, so it would be just as easy to give them a public RSA key as a signature in that case. And a PGP signature is much harder to forge.

    no, it's not a luddite statement. it's an analysis of the risks vs the benefits. an election is FAR more important than a personal signature, it matters a lot more whether it is fraudulent or not because the scale of damage is far greater.

    and, just as significantly, moving from written signatures to electronic signatures isn't a significant reduction in the security of the system because written signatures aren't very secure to start with. by contrast, moving from a many-eyes manual count to an electronic count is a massive reduction in the security of the system.

    the miniscule benefits of electronic counting are greatly outweighed by the risks.

    because they have to (pay at least lip-service) to representing ALL the people in their electorate, not just the extremists and fanatics...because if they dont, they run the risk of pissing off enough voters that they lose the next election.

    I don't get why this is important. If the apathetic masses don't want to vote, haven't done any research at all on the candidates, then their votes would be much more harmful than the votes of the extremists. At least the extremists know what they're voting for. The apathetic masses, at least in America, would end up voting much the same way they choose Coke or Pepsi -- which candidate has the coolest campaign ads? Not in terms of what was said, but in terms of production values?

    because they're going to be affected by the result of the election, regardless of whether they supported the winner or not. the winning candidate is supposed to represent *everyone* in their electorate whether they voted for them or not, they are elected to do a job - to represent the people in their area. it is a peculiarly american attitude that somehow you don't count, your right to be represented is void if you don't vote, or if you didn't vote for the winning candidate.

    and, no, the extremists don't know what they're voting for either. for the most part, they're just like football fans voting for their side, regardless of what their policies are. non-compulsory voting means that voting is done by those most sucked in by the hype.

    in practice, with compulsory voting, what happens most of the time is that people vote for those who either a) promise to have the least damaging policies, and/or b) offer the most to them (e.g. hospitals, schools, whatever other things are needed in the local community). there's certainly potential for problems here, but it's far better than candidates simply ignoring what the majority of people in their electorate want, to concentrate exclusively on what the nutters and corporate interests want (i.e. appease the nutters to get their vote, and do what their corporate masters tell them to do).

    If all of America was forced to vote, we might end up with, say, a rapper or a movie star

Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them. - Oscar Wilde

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