Setting up Linux in an Inner City Public School? 116
Richard Finney asks: "I have a friend who is retired. He was the chief scientist on the Landsat program. Instead of just belting down scotch and cashing social security checks, he is volunteering at Samuel Coleridge Taylor Elementary School #122, in Baltimore. He's trying to set up some old donated computers from the Windows 95 era. Rather than fight with Windows, he's decided to install Linux. How would you set up these systems for these little kids to use and learn about computers using Linux?"
trade in some of those machines! (Score:5, Informative)
If he is looking at donated computers truly of the Windows 95 era, he may not be doing the students, nor linux any service. Consider the standard requirements for a Windows 95 "era" machine: (from the Microsoft knowledge base article [microsoft.com])
System requirements for installing Windows 95:
Not saying it can't be done with Linux, but this person is choosing Linux to avoid the hassles of Windows? With machines as lean as these, and today's Linux, he may be getting more hassle with Linux than the old Windows.
Even by Linux (assuming 2.4 or higher kernel, with associated standard Gnu distro packages) standards, these are pretty stripped down machines, and would be likely to be balky even running Linux. There may be some instructional "stuff" you could do with Linux and these machines, but I'd be inclined to steer clear... there's a reason a lot of these machines are donated.
An alternative would be to look for some kind of community "donation", or a grant, where half decent computers could be drummed up -- a decent computer today can be obtained for much less than before -- why not order a bunch of components from Newegg, or somewhere similar, and build computers as part of the education exercise?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The current minimum is a P2 400 with 128 MB RAM. Anything less than that is not a computer that can be counted in the students per computer ratios and that sort of thing.
There's talk of it being raised to 1.5 Ghz not a year or two after Vista. That's going to leave a lot of school districts looking really bad because they can barely afford to keep up what they've got (or they just
Re:trade in some of those machines! (Score:5, Informative)
Linux terminal server...slick, easy to roll out, and free!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:1, Informative)
You only need machines with 32-48 MB system memory for LTSP, machines with 4-8 MB are a bit stuck although they could be purposed with SVGALIB VNCviewer [cam.ac.uk] or SVGALIB rdesktop [jacco2.dds.nl]. It should be possible to acquire suitable machines for under $100 used, or $150 new.
To minimize the hardware needed and improve administration you might want to try running Edubuntu (a Linux terminal server specialised for education) diskless, and use a directory to store all account information in. There is a directory server [novell.com] projec
LTSP - Linux Terminal Server Project (Score:2)
Like those above have said, check out the Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP [ltsp.org]) or a derivative like k12ltsp [k12ltsp.org] or Skolelinux. You can then keep using those old machines till they drop and then phase them out as they die. Many distros, like Ubuntu for example, already have LTSP client support.
EdTechLive has some excellent interviews on LTSP [wikispaces.com] with staff that have rolled it out at their schools or, in some cases, districts. The sound quality in some of them is not so good, but the material is worth straining
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
I know of one classroom running fine off a 2.0Ghz P4 with 1.5 Gigs of RAM(18 client PC's). Of course the lab running off a 3800 x2 with dual Gigabit ethernet just screams. Considering that even the 3800 x2 is now a lower end machine (other than the 4 gigs of ram which is getting pricier these days) this is amazing. BTW, we figure two labs could run off this, but we have no present need.
Re: (Score:2)
I second this. I set up an LTSP network for a youth centre a couple of years ago, and it worked like a dream. It cost $AU2000 for a new computer and loads of RAM plus half a dozen Pentiums rescued from landfill. I suspect we could have easily gone to a dozen clients without taxing the system, but physical space was the limiting factor.
Far from handicapping students with poor-performing PCs this setup actually runs a lot better in a lot of conditions. If someone else has already started OpenOffice.org, your
Re:INNER CITY KIDS DON'T USE OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE (Score:4, Funny)
Because you can't steal it.
I jacked a motherfucking Emacs from a motherfucker, but I couldn't C-X C-c the fuck out fast enuff, so my black nigger ass got busted by the StallMan.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
You can also talk to Dell, Apple, Lenovo, Microsoft, et al to see if they'd be interested in donating som
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
-l
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
If it is a Windows-95 era machine no Linux distro will install on it and, if something does install, no GUI will be available. This will not help those kids at all
A better solution may be to use the machines for an electronics lesson or something. As actual operating systems they will not be useful.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But you are right. It may be better to go for one of the distros like TinyLinux intended for small footprint installs
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Superintendent: So, we're going to use Linux on these old computers? I've heard of something called Red Hat (hey, he has their stock). Is that what we're using?
Tech: No sir, we're using Damn Small Linux.
Right...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
alternatives to windows.
Personally, I dont think kids should be learning
computers just to learn Excel, Word and Powerpoint,
that they learn the basics of the machine. The
sentence preceding should not be construed as saying
that there is no value to learning Excel, Word and
Powerpoint, before anyone jumps on me about that.
I would say, personally, were I chosing the class
curriculum, put on an apple or commodore emulator
on whatever minimalist OS can be found ( inclu
Re: (Score:1)
I broke my teeth into word processing with a BBC Micro, the skills I learnt then did not become redundant just because I upgraded.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:trade in some of those machines! (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes.
"What benefit do they have here?"
Two at least:
1) Since it's not a maintstream system it will teach them the abstractions that makes a PC being a PC just by looking what has in common a "proper computer" (that with Windows) and "our school's" (the Linux thingie). It's a known fact that the exceptions have a great potential to teach about the mainstream.
2) Since it's an open source system it gives the chance to think about politics, ethics and economics (quite interesting things to think about in *all* curriculum subjects) they wouldn't otherwise.
"What percentage will ever use that knowledge in a IT type job, and what percentage will go up to Windows workstations later in life"
Just look at the time *you* where at school. Do you really have so many chances to currently apply what you learnt about Windows 3.11 or even Windows 95 on your current Windows XP? You seem to think that because it's called "windows" is just the same. There's no more differences between a Linux+KDE (or Gnome, or even Fluxbox) and a Windows XP than that from Windows 3.1 and Windows XP, not to talk about Ms DOS.
"and declare that they have no idea how to do anything because they've been using CLI to do everything up until junior high!"
You must be kidding! Just think about it for a moment:
Case A) Somebody that for the last six years has been exposed to the ugly CLI you talk about; who knows everything about Bash scripting; about how to configure a network card and why; what an interruption is and why it's interesting to know the hardware within the box suddenly exposed (as a mere user) to Windows XP.
Case B) Somebody that for the last six years has been exposed to Windows XP who find extremly difficult to reach http://www.slashdot.org/ [slashdot.org] if only the "Big Blue E that means the Internet" is moved from top left to bottom right within the desktop suddenly exposed (as a mere user)... to anything else.
Which one do you really think will have a worse time to adapt to his new environment? Linux should be use in schools if only because it's lightyears more didactic than Windows.
Re: (Score:2)
They could use Amiword or maybe OpenOffice to write papers.
They can use Tux Paint to draw pictures.
There are a number of astronomy and other educational programs available.
They can create a class web-page with NuVU. Even use Gnumeric to do science projects and make charts.
What real value does learning Windows or Office have for a 3rd grader? What are the chances that the Office and Windows wil
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone my age went from the Commodore 64 era to the OSX era in twenty years. It wasn't that hard. What will these kids miss if they start out with a text interface? Easy stuff:
- multitasking (possibly)
- using a mouse (possibly)
- WIM
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think Linux in elementary school could be VERY useful for some students, and just as good (or bad) as windows for most other students. Most students would be served well just to learn a word processor, and OpenOffice/kword/abiword is as good as any. You can talk about differences between OpenOffice writer and MS Word, but it will be a high-level discussion for heavy users, and there will be pros and cons. For the elementary student its all the same.
But then there are students
Re: (Score:2)
But that's the problem, this question does not give me enough information to say one way or the other here.
Win95 will be better for educational software, but will be a nightmare to keep clean, even if not net connected, just by having kids playing with it, changing settings randomly, and what not. Th
Re: (Score:2)
You told it: system *requirements*. On a 386 with 4 megs Win95 was almost a no-go... to the point Win3.11 was preferable. Win95 asked for a 486 with 8 megs.
Surely you won't have a "proper experience" on Linux today not even with one of those due to current expectations. Anyway, even the 386 with 4MB will do flabergashting X drones with any of the "terminal projects" overthere as long as you can count with a server with about 70 megs a node (that is, less tha
No one believed that then ... (Score:2)
By the standards of 9 years ago, it was a reasonable spec machine (although by no means top of the range). It runs Debian Stable
Terminal Servers (Score:2)
For the old machines that don't have the oomph to run Linux on their own, load them up with Terminal servers software and have them do most of their work from the central servers. -- then hook yourself up with a 100Megabit network and let fly. The connection to the central server could be a gigabit link with a 100Megabit fan out to get the most of your network bandwith.
Remember t
Re: (Score:2)
Depending on the existing infrastructure and how many computer labs there will be and where the servers will be located, they might to run down thousands of feet of cat 5 and install a few dozen RJ45 jacks. That costs money.
Also, sad to say, there's the physical secur
Re: (Score:2)
Gigabit would be nice for the backbone, but it's far from an absolute necessity. People have run diskless machines on 10baseT for years. It's far better than nothing.
Re: (Score:2)
DISCLAIMER – I'm developer of Ultima Linux... by the way, my curr
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
These computers will run Linux just fine. What they won't run (at any acceptable speed) is GNOME, KDE, Firefox, or OOo. That means that keeping Windows isn't going to help, because you still won't have a modern web browser, for instance, that will run on them. (And you don't want to run a 1995 web browser, because it'll be full of security holes.)
It's true that you can get a pretty decent new computer, with much better specs than this, at Fry's for $200. The problem is that the school may have zero funding
Depends on the goal (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I forgot what the name of this Process / Protocol / Method was.
learn by doing (Score:1)
that'll teach 'em about Linux AND
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yuck.
-l
Re: (Score:2)
will be more help than that!
I am convinced they will say "Google it!".
LTSP (Score:2)
Try this live cd (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:1)
Important free hardware to bring (Score:3, Funny)
*ducks*
Nice challenge (Score:4, Insightful)
The trick is not so much teaching Linux as ensuring a good first impression. The OS is there for those who want to learn, don't force it on the others or you'll risk rejection and difficult times in the future.
Let us know who it works out too.
Develop Objectives (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
> can determine if your hardware/software will meet those needs.
Absolutely!
The OS, software and hardware doesn't even begin to play a part if there is no plan on what to teach, and understanding by the teacher of what tools are available and what the limitations are.
This is true whether the OS is Linux, OS X, Windows or whatever.
Set Them Up as Thin Clients (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1)
Groovix software is free as in beer and freedom, as opposed to the proprietary and costly Discoverstation from Userful. The Userful software licenses will cost you more than new hardwar
Take the terminal server/thin clients approach... (Score:3, Interesting)
Instead you can turn the old machines into thin clients. So they will serve only as an display and input to applications that will be run on more powerfull server. You need to set up a fairly capable server (the ammount of RAM matters) - dual P3 with 1GB RAM and decent big disks will do for a handful of clients. The clients can boot of minidistribution installed on them locally, from live CD or via network (netboot). Network option will be probably best but not all systems (meaning PCs) will support it.
This way all the old machines will do is connect to that server and display appliations run on the server. When one such thin client breaks (the old machines *WILL* break often) you just replace it with another one and it is basically it. Also management of such system is much simpler than managing network of Windows 95 - all apps and all user data is on the server, so you have only one place to look after, only one place to manage software, only one place to backup etc.
There are various Linux distributions build for education. F.e. I would take Edubuntu for a spin (for starters):
http://www.edubuntu.org/ [edubuntu.org]
http://www.edubuntu.org/Screenshots [edubuntu.org] (these speak for themselves)
Thera are also few ways for managing terminal server/client network, one most well known solution is the Linux Terminal Server Project - have a look at their documentation, it is fairly complete:
http://www.ltsp.org/ [ltsp.org]
http://www.ltsp.org/documentation/index.php [ltsp.org]
Also if you are looking for help seek your local Linux community. Linux servers are extremely easy to manage remotely so you can probably find some kind admins/gurus that will want to help you pro bono.
Good Luck.
when the linux guy leaves for good, what then? (Score:2)
"Probably" isn't good enough.
What happens after this guy snd his buddies fade out of the picture?
The first question I would ask is what are the chances the school board will support a duct-taped Linux solution for this one school?
Re: (Score:2)
> fade out of the picture?
Perhaps the same thing as would happen if the guys setting up a client network made of Windows 95 will fade out. Och or maybe not - Linux is still supported and there are loads of Linux admins out there. So well you hire new one.
> The first question I would ask is what are the
> chances the school board will support a duct-taped
> Linux solution for this one school?
From the question I assume that any solution using used comp
Hey! Those folk have enough trouble... (Score:2)
Wrong perspective (Score:3, Insightful)
What is the point of using PCs for grade school kids? I don't understand the reasoning.
Unless the classes are about computers, the platform doesn't matter, its the apps that really count. So what applications are desired?
Help us help you, help us help you, help us... (Score:2)
That question doesn't even make sense -- it's like three unrelated questions in one. How do you install Linux? Follow the onscreen instructions. Refer to the documentation, How-Tos, or forums if you get stuck.
What software do you install afterwards? Probably whatever the teacher requests. Is he going to be teaching the kids as well? Because it doesn't really matter what he puts on the computers if t
kids aren't sponges (Score:2)
Don't bother, donate time instead (Score:2, Insightful)
Impoverished children with no family life and no school supplies? Why, I'll install some trendy Linux distro, walk away, feel smug, and leave the PCs to ultimately
Always bother. (Score:2)
Oh, and the Intarweb is a hell of a book. Give them Google before you give them books.
Re: (Score:1)
Computers are interactive devices, and they are 1 on 1 with kids (in a lab setting anyway) which can have a transformative effect. Unless most of the adult population starts donating a day week or you can hold the parents accountable, there is no way to get that 1 on 1 effect. Co
No real help from me... (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
These things often take much less power. I had a k6-2 where the CPU fan only kicked on ever once in a while.
As long as the old ones were powerful enough to be useful for LTSP, the more modern ones would be a worse choice as they would cost more initially and comsume more power.
The only cost effective modern alternative is some of the thin client PC's that use the VIA low power CPU's.
Re: (Score:1)
My low-power installs in the past... (Score:1)
Tweak the hell out of it. (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't. If you just need Internet, links2 is damn small and supports enough graphics and form controls to get by. It's clumsy, but it's better than nothing, and it'll even do the graphics on a framebuffer -- no X to worry about. You can try to teach them to use mutt for email, or just use webmail.
The list goes on.
Don't bother. (Score:2)
If you absolutely cannot get somewhat reasonable computers l
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Ubuntu Breezy's install CD (curses, not GUI) spent three hours attempting to install itself to a G3 PowerBook, and left it in an unusable state upon reboot. The Win9x kernel is not wonderful, but like OS 9 it *is* designed to run inside a frighteningly small amount of memory. Gnome/KDE based distros fail this miserably.
next he'll have them running LAS (Score:2)
Landsat 6? (Score:2)
How about Edubuntu?
Go radical -- break it up! (Score:2)
PC technology has barely changed internally from a visual perspective, apart from SATA replacing the ISA bus, and the amount of fans and pins on the CPUs.
It won
Just make sure you clean the kit a bit first... (Score:2)
You won't have any trouble getting them to wash their hands after that
But yes, it's great for kids to see the guts of a machine, because especially when they're young they tend to be more interested in the physical, practical side of things.
I especially bought a Roland plotter off eBay for teaching as a pen moving in X
From someone who's been there (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Try to work with the district IT people, but if they aren't responsive then continue to go it alone - WITH the support of the principal which hopefully he's already gotten. Having BEEN the red tape wielding corporate goon, don't necessarily expect a lot of help and possible some resistance. But you never know. In particular he needs to be aware of significant liability if the computers are connected to the Internet. He *MUST* provide filtering, or blocking of "unwholesome" sites otherwise it risks the school's federal funding. Typically he should be able to get Internet access either through the district or other routes including the filtering for close to free.
2) There are quite a few charitable groups that should be able to supply solid computers of better vintage, and possibly some support. At the very least check with the National Cristina foundation (www.cristina.org) Machines in the 300Mhz-800Mhz range are pretty readily available. 5 year old servers can also be gotten via charity and these days are monsters like dual 1Ghz XEON's with 2-4GB of RAM and frequently several hundred MB of SCSI RAID - more than enough for the server for this.
3) I'll second the recommendation for the k12 linux terminal server project. Also check out edubuntu (www.edubuntu.org) as it comes pre-packaged with a LOT of good stuff, but he'll need machines like those mentioned above. edubuntu site has some good getting started and how to do this type of guides.
4) Check with www.eduforge.org - there are a lot of experienced people there in the discussion sections to help out.
5) Forget about "teaching about computers". At the K-5 level it is more about using the computers as learning tool for other more practical subjects. Any learning about computers should be distinctly secondary as a result of the computers being used. Kids will pick up basic keyboarding, mouse and other skills as the use the software that helps them with other projects. No need to "teach about Linux" or any other technology as such. You want kids to be able to read, write, figure, and think, not turn out 9 year old Linux sysadmins. The national (and state and I'm sure local) standards for kids need to know about technology are a joke. If the kids are useing the computers a couple hours a week from 2nd though 5th grade, they'll meet the standards, or at least as much of them as make sense.
6) Target two specific types of activities for different purposes:
a) Drill and kill. I hate to say it, but this works for things like basic phonics, letter and word recognition, and arithmetic skills. Doing it on a computer isn't any more effective than work sheets in the classroom, in fact some studies indicate it is less effective for time spent. BUT, doing it on the computers gets the kids excited so they actually do the drills. These kinds of drills are particularly important for the children likely to be in these schools since they are starting off "behind" and typically don't get the necessary reinforcement at home. Not the most popular way to use computers, but you have to deal with reality.
b) Constructivist activities. Using a word processor to write a "paper" (typically 2 sentences qualifies in 2nd grade) and illustrating it with a basic drawing program (e.g. tuxpaint) is well within the capabilities of the machines and students. They will pick up those computer skills as they use these programs for class related activities.
7) Programs like tuxtype not only teach touch typing - something they don't really need until middle school, but help a lot with letter and word recognition. Therefore they can be used even in lower elementary grades effectively, just don't worry about typing speed.
8) Finally if for some reason you absolutely positively have to teach "computers"; Again, forget about teach "linux". Instead starting in the 4th or 5th grade look at one of the great Logo implementations (e.g. education.mit.edu/open
Edubuntu! (Score:2)
Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher (Score:1)
Teach 'COMPUTER' use, not WINDOWS use. (Score:2)
As soon as they have mastered using a mouse and become curious about what other apps reside on the machine they will pretty much dive in and work it out, and they do that as early as 6 years old as long as you control the distraction called the Internet (they're too young at that stage to fully comprehend the risks so you keep an eye on them ther
Re: (Score:1)
Hmm, your edu perspective is different. (Score:2)
In the UK, edu were sold bargain basement priced copies of Windows too, until they were all dependent on it at which point the price went up rather savagely. And you haven't seen the devastation that a FAST visit can wreak on a little company that thought it had all systems licensed because of the copy of Windows that comes with the box, but then found that using a build requir
We use linux in our Junior High (Score:1)
Edubuntu and LTSP (Score:1)
Wrong Question (Score:1)
1) For meeting exactly what student needs do we suspect a computer would be the tool of choice? 2)What do we want to happen when a student is sitting in front of that screen? 3) How will we determine whether what is happening in front of the screen is beneficia
this calls for something that can handle this... (Score:1)
399 Mhz Solaris/tru64 processer
3 gig drive
ATI Radeon pro (8 Mb vid mem) @ XVGA
mouse / kb
ether ( 10/100 EtherLink XL )
it ran ooo in 48 secs.