An Interview with a Cheater 371
Dan writes to mention a post at the Aeropause site. Author Richard was recently given the rare opportunity to interview a cheater, shining a light into the dark recesses of a conflicted mind. The article explores why the cheater cheats, and the great excuses they use to be able to look themselves in the mirror. From the article: "Aeropause: What made you decide to mod your Xbox to gain an unfair advantage in games like Halo 2? Schmuck5000: Modding is not an unfair advantage. There is just as much chance that there will be a modder on the other team. I am there to even things out. Halo 2 is beginning to get old, us modders are just making it more funner."
Ladies and Gentlemen: (Score:5, Insightful)
Interview the Enabler Please (Score:5, Insightful)
What about the people who write the code or make the hardware for the mods? You know, the people that actually do all the work? I want to talk to these people who probably don't even use it all that much but just consider it a challenge and then get bored after the challenge is overcome. Game Genie & Game Shark are popularized commercial versions of this but it's not online play. I wish I could talk to the people that reverse engineer the packets sent out using something like Burp or a networking tool that gives them speed hacks. These people work for it while I don't even think their end goal is really to cheat. I kind of have the feeling that they enjoy the cat and mouse game that appearantly Blizzard has won (after rounds of losing) but Xbox Live has lost.
I investigated writing a program that read the memory from video and tried to interpret it using heuristics on what to do in casewise instances. While it might work for some games (like Tetris), 3D emersion worlds like WoW or online play are much much more difficult. If people are out there and writing these 'bots' that are pretty highly sophisticated, I'd love to hear from them and ask them real questions (not "Do you have a girlfriend?").
By the way, the article has a picture of Steve Martin as "The Jerk" and it's pretty obvious they were interviewing an idiot and doing a radio talk show host job of making him look like a poser.
Oboy! News for Nerds!! (Score:2, Insightful)
Man that guy's got balls! None can stop our XBox-modding overlords.
Thanks
The Worst Part... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Really lame interview (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with parent, the interview is stupid, it is just one person whining because the 'cheater' beat him. I agree that what would be interesting is to interview the developers of the cheats.
However, the reason why the people develop cheats is just because there is demand for cheats. So in a sense this cheater has a point, there is people who wants to cheat, it has been like that since the GameGear times of the NES (or before).
My first cheat was with the Price of Persia game on the PC, I remember looking the PRINCE.SAV file on Xtree Gold and editing it in Hex mode (without knowing what it was, just hacking my way trough it) to have more lives and time. Oh, and to bypass the manual letter verifiaciton =o)
Cognative Dissonance (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope I spelled that right...
But man, it's amazing this guy can't put two of his responses together:
Ok, ignoring for the moment that they did do that (they put it on a freakin' console, for one), even ignoring that banning cheaters is an "anti-cheating engine" of sorts, when asked how game designers should stop cheaters (since he suggested that they do), he says:
So, damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Still, this has got to be my favorite quote:
Funny, I think this guy cheats (not hard!) because he's a jealous pussy who wishes he had the ability to play fairly.
I call BS. The people I know who can play a game "very well" -- some of them could be tournament-level if they practiced just a bit more -- would all much rather play fair. Oh, they have fun with new cheats and exploits, for about 10 seconds, and we're talking about things like Warthog jumping. The rest of the time, they are the ones who will be winning anyway, by knifing the aimbotter in the back.
But I suppose it's like trying to teach a Ferengi about honor, or a Klingon about restraint, or a Trekkie about the Real World. He'll always cheat, and he'll always suck, and nothing I say will change that.
We need a Superhero team. (Score:1, Insightful)
Twink (Score:4, Insightful)
Also interesting is the similarity in attitude. Anyone posting anti-twink messages generally gets called a "loser" and more offensive terms and is labeled as jealous because they can't get the funds to twink. The cheater says the equivalent, calling people who complain about cheaters some nasty things while saying they are envious because they can't cheat or aren't "smart" enough to.
There's also the classic "If they (being the game creators) didn't want me to cheat (or twink) they would have built an anti-cheat engine (equipment based team selector)" argument. As well as the "I have 1337 skills and even without cheats I'll pwn you" argument.
While there are certainly mature people who do things like twinking because they are bored or because they enjoy fighting other twinks, I think it's obvious (especially if you've ever fought them) that the vast majority are without skill and make up for it with whatever advantage can be afforded to an unskilled moron. If everyone actually cheated, they'd stop playing because they wouldn't be able to win.
The fact that the cheater is 24, lacks a girlfriend (quite defensive about it too), and quotes a hideous translation from a dub of a mainstream cartoon show doesn't lend us to have faith in his intelligence.
Re:Rare Opportunity? (Score:5, Insightful)
if you want to "interview a cheater" it is very easy to find them.
To successfully find out what cheats were out there I had to get on those boards and become a member and all that stuff. Trust me, "skill" can easily be downloaded for almost any game out there.
The cheaters get all angry and stop playing if they cant cheat, cause the game "aint fun" because they losing or they expect someone else is cheating against them when they lose.
We are teaching our kids that the only way to have fun is to win, and if you are second place it just means your the first loser and all of that.
Kids arent learning that the POINT of the game is to show how good you are at it versus someone else, when you are cheating you arent really playing the same game and your rules are better in your favor. Its completely pointless.
Re:Really lame interview (Score:5, Insightful)
They want to be bully's and the only way the can bully people is to use a "tool" to get over whatever is preventing them from bullying without the "tool".
Re:Twink (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Twink (Score:2, Insightful)
You don't get mad at the person who ran around an FPS map gathing weapons, ammo, and armor before opening up on you, or do you expect them to only fight with the default handgun?
Hacker/mod cheaters should be banned and are really only showing their lack of skill at playing the game.
Re:anti-cheating engine (Score:2, Insightful)
It also got me thinking about what an anti-cheating engine would look like...
Honestly why don't companies like bungie simply run a CRC on any downloaded content, or record the downloaded date server side and compare it with the modified date client side. I honestly don't know much about cheating online but as someone who has modded Xbox consoles I would imagine the cheating comes from modifying the extra content that was downloaded from Xbox live and sits on the hard drive (extra maps, etc.). Since you can't modify the disc content (if you did you'd need to run a modchip and if you're running a modchip when you log into Xbox Live MS can detect that and ban your sorry ass).
I would think something as simple as a CRC or date check would be simple enough, once you download the content it shouldn't ever change so the CRC should always pass and the modified date should never change.
I'd also like to point out that there IS a LARGE distinction between modders and cheaters. I'm a modder, I make changes to the console that allow me to run Linux, Xbox Media Center and other homebrew apps, I'm currently working on an HTPC based around an Xbox console. There are even game modders that create new levels, weapons, and other content for Halo and other games... these don't let you cheat but they give you new things to play with just like user mods in PC games... I would think the nerdy gaming community should be able to recognize this difference (particularly
Re:Really lame interview (Score:3, Insightful)
You are wrong, I created and released an aimbot for a certain FPS game and I had a girlfriend at the time. It's amazing people still don't understand what a griefer is. It never mattered to me if I won or lost, just as long as I pissed someone off, and got a laugh out of it.
Also the author of the article claims that "Modders", aimbotters, whatever..cheat because they have no skill. That isn't true either, as I've played for first place on a very popular online gaming ladder for the game I used to cheat at, and I know other people who were good players who botted just for the hell of it.
There are some players who use bots, mods, whatever and try to pass them off as 'skill', but for the most part they are just losers. It's much more fun to cheat, and let everyone know about it.
Bah! (Score:4, Insightful)
Online cheaters are below contempt. I don't care what their motivation is. You don't go and purposely ruin others people's fun. It's just "not done". I don't care if your retarded, doing it for kicks, have some half decent self invented excuse or whatever, you just don't. Hell, I've ended real life friendships when I learned they were cheating (in various ways) and couldn't convince them it's just not done.
The arguments presented in the article are just beyond sanity. "I tend to ignore those people, they bitch and morn about how I cheated but they could have modded their box just like mine.", "How can they complain about people like me. They should have built a anti-cheating engine in the game to prevent it.", "Anyone reading this is simply jealous of the fact that I have enough nuts to cheat and play the game the way I want to.", "why should I stop if no one else does"
It's all about the morals and values. Hell, I could've been fairly rich if I didn't hang on to it. Many players of various games have used tools (mods, extensions, cheater-finding, etc) I've made daily. I could've taken most of their accounts if I wanted, selling them on ebay, and in some cases just exchanging it for real world cash (in case of real-cash-economy games). And believe me, there's lots and lots of cash in that. Morals and values...
Saddest thing is, we are most likely to see this guy grow up to be president of some company that earns millions by ripping other people of or otherwise cheating them (spammers anyone?). Fuck that.
why people cheat (Score:4, Insightful)
Cheating is natural (Score:4, Insightful)
We, therefore, are instinctually driven to use all resources available to us to give ourselves every advantage we can. Hence, the "temptation" to cheat is an ever-present behavioral drive.
Good sportsmanship is an arbitrary social construct. There is nothing natural about it. It takes an act of self-denial to be a good sport, and to not cheat. Now, this may be ethically and socially superior...it may be the more enlightened path...but it is not natural and as such most people don't walk it.
Re:He has a great future (Score:3, Insightful)
The you're an idiot and don't understand the meaning of competition. Competition implies that there are rules being followed.
Want to play without rules? Great. Come and play a game of poker in my neck of the woods and cheat. Please don't winge (whatever that is) about the lack of working knees when you get caught (ie: lose).
Life is not (regardless of your outlook) a computer game without consequences. Cheaters who get caught usually pay a stiff price. That's because those of us who don't like cheating or cheaters wreak retribution. That, little man, is not complaining about being cheated, but doing something physical (life) about it.
Re:Really lame interview (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cheating is natural (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't work.
Apparently part of the modder/cheater mentality is not only to have an advantage over the other players, but to exploit that advantage in the FACE of those who are trying to play an honest game. Kind of a huge "Look how much better I am than you. What a loser you must be." kind of attitude.
Re:Really lame interview (Score:5, Insightful)
Other posters said it sounds like sociopathic tendencies. It's not a tendency, you are a sociopath.
"It's amazing people still don't understand what a griefer is."
That's practically the definition of a sociopath. A person who does not think or feel the same genuine emotions the rest of society does, but you firmly believe everyone else's brain is wired up the way yours is.
People with normal minds do not play games for the disenjoyment of others, don't understand why someone would want to, and wouldn't enjoy it if we tried. Your thoughts and behavior are equivilant to someone going to medical school so they can cut people with a scalpel. (i.e. Someone who wants to end up with half a dozen bodies hanging in their basement.) You've chosen a course of action for exactly the opposite reason most people do, but you think it's strange the rest of us don't seem to understand or empathize.
Re:Cheating is natural (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on what you mean by the "old days." Humans are social animals and always have been (as far as we know). Generally speaking, individuals cooporate in a social situation. It pays to play by the rules within the group (which may include *lawful* competition). In a group, you're more likely to be killed for "cheating" (theft, for example) than get a survival advantage. It is therefore the norm for humans to obey the rules of the social group. "Cheating" is a deviation... an aberation that ultimately hurts the stability of the social group.
Cheating may, however, still be natural in the sense that it is an evolutionary carryover from a time when the animal that humans eventually evolved from was not social/cooporative. But as far as being human goes, it is not "natural."
Social contructs are no more or less arbitary than any other survival adaptation such as tool making. We make physical tools. We make social constructs. Same basic purpose: survival.
-matthew
Abusing social trust is for children and loonies (Score:3, Insightful)
Sociopath (Score:3, Insightful)
"They bitch and morn about how I cheated but they could have modded their box just like mine."
How about "They bitch and moan about how I broke into their houses and stole their stuff, but they could have lots of stuff too if they just broke into other people's houses and stole theirs." [insert random grammatical mistakes for added authenticity]
This is about the basic trust and respect for other people that makes society a decent place to live. Saying "it's OK that I'm an asshole because everyone else could just be an asshole too if they wanted" gives me no sympathy for his views. Yes, if everyone was a sociopath and took every opportunity to take advantage of others in betrayal of the accepted rules, everyone would be on equal footing, and the world would suck. If this guy got mugged, do you think his opinion would be "that's OK, I could have mugged other people too?"
Unfortunately, I'm afraid his reaction probably would be "Hey, that's a great idea! I could mug other people too!"
Re:Really lame interview (Score:3, Insightful)