Interoperability Tests of Draft 802.11n Routers 103
mikemuch writes "ExtremeTech has done interoperability testing of five wireless routers from Belkin, Buffalo, D-Link, and Netgear — along with their matched NICs. Results (summarized in a color-coded table) are very mixed, with several of the products not talking to one another at all. From the review: 'Netgear's RangeMax NEXT devices dominated in the throughput race, but interoperability was a mixed bag...Stick to a single brand and a single product line...Don't expect all of your existing clients to work with the new hardware. If some don't, you may have to pony up for some new wireless equipment. No one ever said early adoption was cheap.'"
This is why (Score:5, Insightful)
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kflex tried to rush to market.. but i personaly think it was USR that made v.90 stick
i miss USR.. they made great stuff till 3com bought them and then cut them down........
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There was K56flex by Rockwell and X2 by USR. V90 was the finalized standard for 56K.
IIRC, you had to dial a 56K modem bank that suported either.
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Ironic, when only a couple generations of modems prior, it was US Robotics that rushed their proprietary HST modems to market rather than wait for the v.32 (and up) standards to be formalized.
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Oh how history repeats itself. "Firmware upgradable" my butt.
Re:This is why (Score:4, Informative)
That's rewriting history. USR promoted X2 [wikipedia.org], Lucent/Rockwell promoted K56Flex [wikipedia.org]. There was no interoperability. A year or so later, with poor sales and no clear market leader, they both compromised with the v.90 standard. USR equipment sold after that point typically supported X2 and v.90, Lucent/Rockwell equipment sold after that point typically supported K56Flex and v.90.
Sort of reminiscent of DVD+RW vs. DVD-RW, Bluray vs. HD-DVD, etc, etc. It seems that if you want everybody's product to follow a documented open standard, you should have the first implementation of it be done by an academic institution.
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Everything's a beta test! Even the Pet Rock was a beta test.
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It's unlikely that any of this gear is actually going to be compatible with the 802.11n standard, which isn't due until early 2008. If you really need the speed it might be worth the inves
That was a guess? (Score:1)
Except for the Airgo, none of these are the Pre-N gear you heard about. They're all Draft-N. The Belkin product was the latest released of the group (you're thinking of Belkin's Pre-N product probably, not this one) The Airgo wanted to be 11n, but they lost the standards war, and now they make no reference to 11n at all.
I'd say it's likely that all of these will conform to the eventual 11
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We have two buildings interconnected at 1km using 802.11b connections. No other method is in this price range so I cannot goto dedicated lease lines or VPN through Internet or licensed spectrum radio.
If I could get two or more 802.11n at its highest spec speed and load balance it (with directional antennae), I'm home. I know I could use 11g but even g speeds wont allow me to remove the citrix licenses, second domain controller etc, unless I use MANY g connecti
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100mbit connection through Bell is $3000 a month.
And fiber was quoted to us as $50,000 CDN just for the installation.
Our location is partly to blame.
So use many connections (Score:1)
Although in your case, mated draft-n items might be the way to go. Just realize you are buying a temporary solution and the equipment may be obsolete when N comes out. Then again, so will g equipment.
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Why? It's not like the existing gear will stop working once the standard comes out, or he needs to expand it (worst case, if he can't find something compatible with what he has, then he can set up a totally separate link - these are building to building links, it's not like you add new buildings everyday). Cha
good point (Score:1)
However, pre-N and g will soon join the ranks of a and b as protocols almost nobody wants.
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We have more than 10 businesses between our sites. I tried this venue the first thing.
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A link from Orthogon Systems for example. You can run thesse links at speeds ranging from 21 to 300 Mbps on the unlicensed bands.
These are much better systems in terms of reliability or throughput then you'll ever get with the current WiFi standards. They are a little costly ($10,000 - $20,000) but still significantly cheaper then fibre for point to point conn
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Huh? GigE has about 20 times the bandwidth of 802.11a/g (using the max spec on both), and 10 times the latency would be a real worst case.
But (Score:1)
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meshing success ?? (Score:1)
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Err, MIMO isnt just adding more radios. Its pretty damn clever. Youre still only using one channel. Unlike 108mps channel-boding stuff.
Not Promising... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'll say. Doing a quick-and-dirty measurement of the fitness of 802.11n for prime time by taking all the numbers in that table and averaging them, one comes up with the unappetizing figure of 30.9. I'll stick with my 802.11G, thanks....at l
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Yeah, I hate it when my wireless card runs faster than I was expecting
The Marvell gear appears to have issues at the moment, and the Airgo shouldn't even be in the comparison, since that's not 11n. What we don't see is how the new gear works with existing 11a/g access points and adapters. I'd say the Belkin and D-Link cards would make fine replacements for your 11g dinosaur.
By my math, if all I use is the gigabit rangemax, then my average is
So what is this? (Score:2)
Dial N for $$$ (Score:5, Informative)
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the great thing about this.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Funny thing, the data thruput bottleneck is generally not at the 802.11X point anymore.
802.11"X" - hm, that has a nice ring to it.... Sorta sounds like upgrading my 80286 to a 386, to a 486, to a...
Seriously the 802.11 interface will shake out.
Stay tuned for 802.16A WiMax!
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I have sat on IEEE standards committees, boring political push and shove exercise that they can be. (hm... should I go AC here?)
802.11X in all its variations is largely a variation on modulation/BW schema, nothing new or exciting here. It's just another ISM band data link.
802.15.4 has some interesting applications in remote low speed data monitoring (aka ZigBee)
802.16.a (and the ones there after) have some exciting applications in distance networking. (WiMax)
What everyone has been trying to make WiFi
Early adoption isn't cheap (Score:2)
What the bulk of the public just doesn't get (Score:5, Insightful)
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So indeed, there are plenty of people--not necessarily all schmucks (my father-in-law is, in general, a very smart man)--who think that the faster the wireless is, the faster their Internet connection will be.
Re:What the bulk of the public just doesn't get (Score:5, Funny)
What's it like being married to Sen. Ted Stevens' child?
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He complains about the speed of the computer when he's really complaining about the speed of the internet connection. Granted, his computer is slow by today's standard but IMO, still very useful. I've had to tell him several times that buying a faster computer won't make web pages load faster.
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Oh, you mean people have a need for bandwidth on the LAN, even though they're only connected to a 10Mb internet connection?
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With my old
I passed the
pre n no thank you. (Score:3, Informative)
until 802.11n routers can play nicely with other wireless networks and not interfere with 802.11b/g WLANS...and can offere some actual performance benifit I fail to see any reason to have anything to do with 802.11n (pre n)
Re:pre n no thank you. (Score:5, Informative)
The conclusion to Anandtech's review on "draft 802.11n" routers [anandtech.com] showed just how bad these products can interfere with existing 802.11b/g networks. It's pretty freakin' bad (bold emphasis mine):
So even if you can get good 802.11n performance now, you'd probably be an arsehole to your neighbors (literally crashing their wireless networks). I hope the sellers of "draft n" products include an appropriate warning on their products for those who aren't arseholes.Why should they be compatible with eachother? (Score:1)
All that I really would expect compatibility-wise would be complete interoptibility between b and g standards, so if I chose, I could still use either my g adaptors with the Pre-N router, or vice ver
They are based on the same draft (Score:2)
Dont think incompatibility but increased security! (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod points! (Score:2)
Re:Dont think incompatibility but increased securi (Score:2)
You can buy now;standards-firmware? Two years away (Score:3, Insightful)
By then, WPA-PSK will have been handily cracked.
So buy now, if you need the speed, and hang on to your 802.11a/b/g card just in case you have to leave your 802.11n captive-vendor AP behind for a while.
And remember: gross payload might be 108mb, but actual max next-hop throughput is on the order of about 3.2megabytes/sec., using bsd ftp's number as a guide with puts and gets, on a clean GBE switch with no other users or interference or other obstructions.
Re:You can buy now;standards-firmware? Two years a (Score:2)
you just have to hope to hell that 1: your device can actually handle the final spec and 2: they actually bother to do so.
Nah... most companies eventually finish it. (Score:2)
MIMO is silly, and an interim patch until someone figures out decent and legal channel bonding, etc.
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Re:You can buy now;standards-firmware? Two years a (Score:2)
Even that has some well analyzed flaws, though I'm not aware of any freeware tools for hacking it.
WPA-PSK... and WPA2.... (Score:2)
Proxy authentication with temporal keys might be good this week. I wonder what's good next week.
Cracking WPA-PSK (Score:1)
Basically, you can offline-brute-force TKIP fairly quickly, on the order of a few hundred guesses per second. Not nearly enough for a good key but plenty fast to crack a dictionary word.
If you "pre-hash" a dictionary, you can test a given connection in less than a minute. If the passphrase is in your prehashed dictionary, you 0wn it. If not, then you know it's not a totally lame passphrase.
Here's what Wikipedia has to say about WPA [wikipedia.org] TKIP passphrases:
"Security is strengthe
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Re:You can buy now;standards-firmware? Two years a (Score:1)
Is it hackable? Is the hardware robust enough? (Score:2)
You gotta realize that there will be updates in the Pre-N spec, as it is adopted. I would expect that the range of manunfacturers would produce a firmware upgrade on some of these units. But will the hardware work for the full spec? Is it robust enough a device?
Which of these products will have free updates.... (Score:1)
I have the D-Link RangeBooster N (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never been happier. The speed is extremely fast, the signal is strong, and best of all my connection never drops. When I get home my SSH sessions are still logged in... that's a first. It's also a great router too with decent QoS.
I'm totally happy to be a beta tester if it means I'm flying solo in the frequency spectrum for a year or so.
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Wireless access is an arms race. There are many people with the speedbooster G technology that totally causes havoc to normal G users like me. Is that speedbooster technology an official standard? Being a "good neighbor" may gaurantee that you get mediocre connectivity.
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That will solve little, as n and g both use the same frequency range. Between you and your neighbors, it's simply a contest of who's putting out the stronger signal, and you're still all screwed when somebody decides to microwave something.
A cheaper solution would have to simply move to a different channel, or leave the b/g/n/noise spectrum e
Santa Rosa (Intel) (Score:4, Informative)
Didn't we go through the same shit with 802.11g? (Score:3, Informative)
Isn't this a lesson we should have learned by now?
Re:Didn't we go through the same shit with 802.11g (Score:4, Insightful)
They learned the lesson all right, but it wasn't the lesson you wanted. Chip and system vendors learned that products based on draft standards make money, especially if you release yours first. So for every future version of 802.11 there will be a race to the bottom to ship draft hardware as early as possible.
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Anyway...
Re:Didn't we go through the same shit with 802.11g (Score:2)
Interoperability is highly desirable, but it isn't the be-all-end-all.
If, for whatever reason, I need more wireless bandwidth than 802.11a/g offers RIGHT NOW, I'm going to buy a draft MIMO device, period.
Sometimes, you can't wait 2+ years, for the standard to be finalized.
Most users shouldn't buy-in, but there are lots of reasons someone might need to.
Firmware fixes? (Score:5, Insightful)
Standard (Score:1)
Standard is taking a LONG time (Score:2)
They have the G and B specs and those are quite good, I understand there are currently problems involving airwave sharing but if that is the only consideration why did we get the other three standards?
Also what happened to 802.11i?
Maybe I'm being paranoid but is it possible the standard is being delayed for something like Vista or Intels new chipset? Something to package into new machines
Silly question (Score:2)
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80% of new client cards are 11a capable. Even the MacBooks have it, although they don't tell you. The problem seems to be AP manufacturers cut corners to make the cheapest router and saving a few bucks by going 11g-only is part of the deal. When they do get around to selling A/G APs, they charge double, because they figure you need 11a if you go out of your way to buy it. A high density wifi area could knock 11n down to 11g rates, or worse
As a neighbor of 802.11n "draft" equipment (Score:2)
The public just doesn't care... (Score:1)
The only goal of the big boys is to win the largest chunk of the market share - better win today, or else there is no tomorrow.
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