Apple Fires Five Employees for Downloading Leopard 325
BuzzardsBay writes "The good folks at VARBusiness are quoting a ThinkSecret report that claims five Apple employees got canned over the unauthorized downloading of the Leopard OS. According to the article: one of the employees says:
"Because we had the character to tell the truth and to face the consequences of our actions, we were terminated. If we all lied and denied it would we still be working at Apple today? Even more so, is that the kind of person that Apple wants working for them?""
The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
B.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple would have a difficult time suing them for damages for merely downloading a copy. It's uploading that really gets you in trouble.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
(I know, I know, not the same thing. But still, they violated their employer's intellectual property, wether they came clean about it or not, they deserve to get fired.)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I do agree that copyright infringement* is wrong, and I do agree that violating a written or oral agreement is wrong too. I don't know if I would agree that a firing was the best option, nor do I believe that the punishment fit the crime.
[*]a bone thrown to the pedants among us. In this case, I wish they would go away because th
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Informative)
Note: I AM an Apple employee, and I would expect that if I did the same, I would face the same punishment. Apple's new hire training actually goes over all of this, and states exactly the punishment for doing anything against their policy. Part of that policy is that if you use or divulge unreleased software or information without the proper authority, you *will* be fired, at the least. I'm sure if they wanted to, they could have taken this much further.
Think here for a minute, these guys downloaded an illicit copy of Leopard, knowing that just that was grounds for being fired, *and then* proceded to talk about it at work, where they were overheard. Surprising to me would be if they *didn't* get canned.
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes, Apple has every right to handle these things however they like.
I do have to argue though that Apple creates these circumstances themselves. Think about it:
Apple's working on this new release of their OS. Everyone that works there knows it. No one has seen it. No one there can use it, even though they are building it. It's all very hush hush and secretive, very typical Apple style. A build gets leaked onto the internet...a couple employees find it...Hey! I'm working on that! I'd sure like to see it, sheesh, what's the harm if any script kiddie out there can play with it, why can't I play with the darned thing that the company I work for built?
Apple is NOT the DOD. They can, but maybe shouldn't treat their employees like they are.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You're talking about some schmucks working in their retails stores. This is hardly on the same level as an engineer who has deep internal knowledge of things and must be debriefed so his team won't lose ground...Not to mention, as others have said, when you illicitly take something from your e
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you think MS makes their employees pay for Windows?
Do you think MS is hiding Vista from all of their employees?
Do you think an MS employee would have to go a download a leaked copy if they wanted to try out the software the company they are working for is building?
Note that I'm not suggesting Apple was outside of their bounds, they had every right to do this.
That doesn't make it a good decision.
Where before firing, they had a few employees that would have been talking up th
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Your comments on availability are relevant but the length of development time is not. Apple and Microsoft are both making point releases and as such there is nothing major here. Some nice window dressing, that's it. Well, that, and V
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's do some reading.
What you claim: "You act as if they have a God-given-right to work at Apple."
What he really said: "Apple can hire and fire whoever they want, for whatever (legal) reason."
What you claim: "What we have now is the whining of somebody who doesn't like that he is being held accountable for his own actions."
What he really said: "The complaint is not that they were punished at all, it's that the punishment was excessive and gives nobody any incentive to be honest."
Welcome to the wonderful world of the straw man argument, where answering people's points is too hard, so you just pretend they said something stupid instead and tell them how stupid they were to say it. You've got a bright future ahead of you in politics.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This very phenomenon is the thing that gets me most pissed off while here on slashdot. Yes, I know the saying about arguing on the internet, and the special olympics and all that, and I even agree with it, so hand me my helmet because I just can't brin
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole plea-bargain system in this country, btw, is NOT an example of this. It actually has the opposite effect. If you confess your crime immediately, you won't be able to plea-bargain, since you have nothing to bargain with. But if you evade, not well enough to avoid arrest, but at least well enough to give your lawyer something to work with, that's how you get a plea bargain. This actually increases the incentive to evade, driving ever-increasing law enforcement requirements...
Re: (Score:2)
Your math is a bit off ... need more coffee?
"($100*X/1), where X is the likelihood of apprehension in those circumstances. So if you have a 50% chance of evading punishment entirely, the fine needs to be over $200,"
Since X/1 is the same as X, your expression is really ($100*X). Now if the chance of getting caught is 50% (0.5), $100*0.5 becomes $50, not 200.
I think you meant ($100 * 1/ X), which becomes $100/X.
If X is 0.5, then $100/X = $200.00
Re: (Score:2)
Actually that is rational. The risk of getting caught is sufficiently low to justify taking a chance.
People are rational, its just that they are so complex that we can't fully understand and predict their actions.
True Story (Score:5, Interesting)
The moral: I don't know.
Re:The consequences were that you got fired.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The point is that "accepting responsibility for one's actions" is being used to mean "looking for an optimal outcome given one's actions".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Face it, if people have to choose between lying in a relatively minor case (honestly, what was the damage in this case? I wager all of them would have bought Leopard anyway and they'd have used their new-found knowledge just for hyping the product, the very foundation of Apple's success =) and losing their job they will lie. Many bankruptcies and large accidents are the result of people lying in cases of maj
Re: (Score:2)
not analogous (Score:3, Insightful)
That
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Remind me not to hire you.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Most businesses (in the USA) can fire you on a whim. It's called AT WILL employment.
If you are in a "protected class" (crippled, black, female, gay, etc) they must be able to prove that that's not why they fired you. So, most companies will keep a record of your misconduct (minor, major and in-between), making it all sound as bad as possible, so that they have legal cover when firing you.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
they went home and downloaded it.
they didn't re-share it
they wanted to see it early
it sounds like they are sales people
find the developer who leaked and shared it and sue them
geesh
Re: (Score:2)
My impresion is that apple see no difference because they didn't see a profit from the sale that never happened.
Re: (Score:2)
Here's the thing. (Score:2)
On the other hand, if they want to get rid of you, they don't need a reason, and if some silly law says they do, they'll get one - inappropriate use of company resources (you checked headlines on slashdot once while at work), tardiness (you were 30 seconds late to a meeting), or spreading
Re: (Score:2)
They got caught violating their NDAs. Part of that NDA involves not getting unauthorized access to company information they have no need to know or regular access to, I'd be willing to bet. Any NDA I'd write for employees in that kind of business certainly would. Doesn't matter where or how they got it - they had no right or need to have it, they had it - case closed. The NDA probably spells out the consequences for violations, which is most probably terminat
Re: (Score:2)
I recall in one of the cases with Apple Developers caught seeding tiger (or earlier?) over bittorrent, they matched the IP addresses participating in the torrent again logs of logins to the Apple Developer Connection website.
It wouldn't be hard to believe that Apple employees may have access to internal only websites with a login and password that could be matched up against P2P logs.
Re: (Score:2)
If you'r R'd TFA... then you would have learned nothing other than someone has an interest in driving traffic to VarBusiness (whoever they are).
If, on the other hand, you had read the article that the incoherent rambling linked article was talking about [thinksecret.com] then you would have learned that they were overheard talking about having downloaded Leopard in the store, which caused Apple Corporate to launch
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They violated the NDA. End of story.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Personally, I think they should have gotten a cookie on the way out the door they were being kicked out of. That way they could feel good for their honesty by being rewarded but also get what was undoubtedly their contractually obligatory comeuppance. Yes, it is a good policy to reward honesty. No, you'd have to be brain-dead to believe that copying unreleased software isn't an offense for which any software corp. on the planet wouldn't fire you and proabaly shoot your dog/cat/ferret/first-born child. As a
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is absolutely no doubt that Apple shot themselves in the foot multiple times on this one. As you say, it probably would be smart to show the product to the salespeople. However, that they didn't do the smart thing doesn't mean that those salespeople then should take it upon themselves to peek.
If they were getting questions about Leopard, what they should have done was one of three things:
1. Been honest to the customer and said 'I dunno.'
2. Sold the customer up on the 'super-secretness' of the
Is that the kind of person apple wants? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
These aren't those type of people, as they didn't steal anything.
Re: (Score:2)
Is the employee refering to the type of person who willfully violates company policy, which in the view of the company is a crime aka the procurement of company trade secrets regardless of whether or not they divulged them or made a profit from their actions or is the employee refering the type of person who thinks being honest
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Wanting to call a duck a duck and a cat a cat is not being nitpicky. And copyright infringment and theft are as different as ducks and cats.
Is the employee refering to the type of person who willfully violates company policy, which in the view of the company is a crime aka the procurement of company trade secrets regardless of whether or not they divulged them or made a profit from their actions or is the employee refering the type of person who thinks being honest about will
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, one involves taking something that isn't yours, and the other involves taking something you have no right to take.
The difference is astounding.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They weren't fired for stealing; they weren't fired for copyright infringement. They were fired because they were found to possess copies of an unreleased software package that they had no authorized access to have. Didn't matter where they got it, the point is, they had it. They were fired for violating their NDA agreements, which most likely spelled out the consequences of that violation. Period. End of story.
The kind of employee Apple wa
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
i would like to hire that person...
I absolutely gaurantee i could find about a hundred reasons to can your ass...
no employee is perfect, no employee follows every rule, dont pretend they do.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Stealing is stealing.
value (Score:2)
one is $2.00 worth of office supplies
the other is the companies flagship product...
Re: (Score:2)
Did I miss something? Honestly.
I RTFA, but all I saw was that these employees wanted to look at it themselves, and not pass it around to their friends.
If that's all that this was (gain better knowledge of the product, because they are Mac-addicts and want to be knowledgable(sp?) for the customers), I don't see this as a firing offence.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Is that the kind of person apple wants? (Score:5, Informative)
Eh? I never had to use a cd key for any of my Tiger installs. Methinks you are talking about Server, not client.
Re:Is that the kind of person apple wants? (Score:5, Funny)
The torrent was probably mislabeled.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Is that the kind of person apple wants? (Score:5, Informative)
As was mentioned above, however, OS X Server does require CD keys for installation.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Is that the kind of person apple wants? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, based on the fact that there is no such thing as a "Umax Core Duo 7500", I would guess that you're likely staring at an empty crack pipe.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As far as the install disks. With Mac OS X, and some machine under OS 8 and 9, there were specific builds of the OS when those machines where shipped that supported those machines, and that is typically the OS on t
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
How long does it take to copy a 70MB file?
who is suprised by this? (Score:5, Funny)
They should be thankful... (Score:2)
Somebody didn't get the memo.... (Score:2, Interesting)
What if they had lied? (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Assuming they didn't upload it (Score:2)
It seems like they are enthusiastic about the product which is a good thing on a sales team, unless, of course, they start recommending people hold off until Leopard comes.
Could someone explain the exact reasoning behind this? I could imagine its simply the same mentality as the RIAA would show if an R
A bit more context (Score:5, Interesting)
"All of us know that we violated our NDA and ethics policy. Therefore, because we had the character to tell the truth and to face the consequences of our actions, we were terminated," said one of the fired employees, who spoke with Think Secret on condition of anonymity.
If you are full well aware that you violated the Non-Disclosure agreement -- in addition to the ethics policy -- you signed when you came on board, then, well, you should be full well aware of the fact that all you can expect is to be fired over it. NDAs are sort of a big deal for companies. Ethics, on the other hand, are a big deal unless if you have enough power.
They were just retail employees (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
On the other hand... (Score:5, Insightful)
How about the lack of character you showed by violating the NDA in the first place. If you had any character (or ethics) you would have obeyed the obligations of the contract you signed.
On your next job application where it asks "Why did you leave your most recent job?", now you can write "I was fired because I was fucking stupid."
Re:On the other hand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Character is a precious thing. I hear at school all the time, when someone comes clean and they still get the consequences, "So this is what I get for telling the truth?" No, that's what you get for (insert broken rule here). What you get for telling the truth is trust and respect.
DreamWorks Comparison (Score:3, Interesting)
Whether I agree or disagree with Apple's PR department about the wisdom of offering Leopard preview releases to developers only, that's the choice they made. It's not up to me, even if I were an employee of Apple, to try and change that policy or think that I'm somehow exempt from it. Apple's discouraging developers from talking about releases they have on Apple developer mailing lists even. It's doubtful that they'd make exemptions from their closed lips policy for staff in the Apple retail stores.
Re:DreamWorks Comparison (Score:5, Funny)
I'd fire anyone at any company for watching "Over the Hedge."
Oh puhleez... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Employee does something that runs counter to the company's stated policy in an important way. Bad employee - no biscuit.
2. Employee tells the truth when lying might have saved their job. Good person - refused to lie even when lying seemed to be of benefit.
There's no reason to mix these two - they're separate actions. One's a mistake, one's a sign of character. So of the mistake, you say "oh shit, that was really stupid, I wish I hadn't done that." And of the truth-telling, you say "yay, I'm glad I did that."
When you try to mix the two, it wrecks the good taste of telling the truth. Don't regret doing the right thing. Just take this lesson forward and try to avoid doing the wrong thing in the future.
--Speaking as one who was burned by exactly this kind of thinking in high school, and wasted a lot of emotional energy on it.
Random Thoughst Having Just Recently Awoken (Score:5, Interesting)
That's all there is to corporate ethics policies, nothing more and certainly nothing on which anyone should being using to judge a person's character.
As for violating Apple's NDA - sounds like they used bittorrent to get a copy of the software from someone else who had originally made it public. That means they did not themselves take an internal copy from Apple and redistribute that. They only did what any other person on the net was capable of - go to a public website like isohunt and use the public information to get into the public torrent for the files.
Because bittorrent makes you a redistributor as well as a simple downloader, I am sure they are technically in violation of Apple's NDA - but realistically their employment at Apple had nothing to do with their downloading of a copy.
Thirdly - Apple, or rather whatever uptight member of lower middle management who actually made the call to fire these guys, is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Any retailer should be ecstatic to have store employees as interested in their own products as these guys (kids?) are. How many times have you all gone to best buy, or compusa or circuit city, etc, etc and been told absolute bullshit by some ignorant "sales associate?" When you've got employees that are so into your own products that they hunt down pre-release versions on the internet just check out for themselves, you need to keep them around, not fire them for trivialities.
Last and probably least, but it made me chuckle, did anyone else notice the plagarism at VAR Business? Their link to the story at ThinkSecret includes an unnecessary "?www.reghardware.co.uk" in the URL, which is another computer news website. Looks like a violation of corporate ethics policy to me.
Reminds me of a joke (Score:4, Funny)
A businessman was teaching his son about ethics and the ethical dillemas in busines, "Let me give you a practical example, son. See, there's this old friend and business associate of mine, whom I loaned some money to last year. So yesterday he came around and gave me my money back. When I counted the money, I noticed that two banknotes were stuck together, and he had given me a hundred dollars more than he owed me. Which, of course, raised the ethical problem: should I tell your mom too about the extra money, or not?"
Re:Random Thoughst Having Just Recently Awoken (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly, they got fired because they talked. As a retail employee, you are supposed to keep your mouth shut. If they had been exercising that particularly (to Apple) valuable skill, they'd still have a job.
Second - the NDA.
WHERE they got it doesn't matter. Leopard is a product that is restricted. Not just unreleased. Apple has what is known as a stovepipe organization. Some would term it as a firewalled org., too. What that means is that, depending on WHERE you work will determine what products you have access to. The NDAs the employees sign most likely have a clause that prevents them from getting access to information in other parts of the org., to prevent leaks. So where they got Leopard isn't at issue, simply the fact that they had it is enough. They work in the retail stores, so thay would have NO access to it at all.
Third - cutting off of the nose
Not an issue. Public reaction is not something they worry about here. The NDA these people violated spells out the consequences of the violation. If Apple doesn't fire these people, the next time Apple tried to do that, THOSE employees could go to court and use these cases as examples of how Apple had 'constructively changed' the terms of the NDA by this action. In the business world, the firings are normal and expected.
My apple store experience (Score:2, Insightful)
hmmmmmmm
There appears to be a confusion of ideas here. (Score:3, Funny)
In admitting your wrongdoing, you're honest.
You're an honest idiot. You're idiotically honest.
Either way, you're an idiot, and the consequences of your idiocy is termination.
(I'd say 'QED' at this point, but I'm sure someone here will rip this up...)
Do the crime, do the time! (Score:4, Insightful)
No of course apple (or any company) wouldn't want employees lying to them. They also wouldn't want employees leaking their software you freaking dumbasses.
Re: (Score:2)
Five workers at Apple Computer's retail stores have been fired for downloading preview copies of Mac OS X 10.5, dubbed "Leopard," which the company distributed to developers two weeks ago, an Apple enthusiast Web site reported Tuesday.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The employee admits to violating the company's NDA AND their ethics policy. Any NDA will spell out the consequences of that violation. They were found to possess copies of an unreleased product. HOW they got it doesn't matter. WHERE they got it doesn't matter. It is something that, according to company policy, they had no need or authorization to have. Therefore, that possession violates the NDA. Period, end of story. No need to dither about torrents or any other source.
Question from Mana