MS Employees Debate Mod Chips 107
Via 1up, a post on Xbox strategy group member Andre Vrignaud's blog discusses the view of mod chips from inside Microsoft. Not surprisingly, he concludes that they're a barrier to a viable business model. Just the same, the post has some good consideration of the issue from both sides. Especially interesting is his comment that "a friend of mine at Microsoft once demonstrated a modded PSP to Bill Gates and showed off all of the interesting things that enabled. According to my friend Bill was intrigued and asked the audience what we might be able to do to encourage this sort of thing without damaging the business." Even if it's a sticky wicket, at least they're thinking along the right lines.
Modchips rock! (Score:1)
Re:Modchips rock! (Score:3, Insightful)
You made the wrong choice (Score:2)
Softmodding (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who has done that, I can tell you it isn't that easy to do, mainly because sites with the information seem to want you to sign up for membership to their forums before they'll let you access the instructions. (I just wanted to get the info and go; I don't want to have to subscribe to a forum and bother veteran modders with newbie questions.)
It is also getting harder and harder to find compatible USB thumbdrives with which to perform a softmod. The only drive that I could find that would work completely with the XBOX would cause my PC to hang until it was removed and available instructions to store the image to the drive with a Mac just didn't work. Luckily some newer thumbdrives with acknowledged issues could be used on the PC to put the gamesaves on and copy to the XBOX, but could not be used to transfer data from an XBOX (failed writes).
Many tutorials' links to essential resources now lead to sites that have become ad farms or pointed to the wrong TLD (e.g.
Older methods which work with MechWarrior provide images to store on the drives, but newer methods that work with SID4 require another application to move bare gamesaves to the device, and further require you to download another program to get thumbdrive make and model code numbers and alter the application to recognize a USB thumbdrive as its proprietary storage device. Even the free version apparently only wants to work with the proprietary devices.
And then, once you get the mod in, you can't find any of the hacks in precompiled form. I have still to find where I can get a cross compiler to build my own binaries for emulators and applications, and still haven't found any public information on where to store them on the box's filesystem. Even with telnet enabled, the only command I can find that works is DIR; no CD command.
BTW, be careful with SID4. It doesn't seem to like it when you use a component video display instead of a composite and if you try hitting buttons blindly you may wipe out your EEPROM and/or drive backups. (I couldn't find SID4.5 or anything newer so I don't know if this issue has been fixed.) SID4 also apparently doesn't support component video (black screen and failure to exploit), so keep your original composite harness handy.
And if you can't get the maps to load in Halo 2, check to make sure your cable is firmly connected to the hub or switch before opting to revert your mod.
Re:Softmodding (Score:3, Informative)
http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=
Follow that tutorial and in a few hours you will have a softmodded xbox.
Re:Softmodding (Score:2)
Re:Softmodding (Score:2)
They tend to work more reliably and offer more features too, not to mention they're not at all annoying to work with.
If you already have a game and an action replay you, and your xbox is old enough you can re-flash the onboard bios and get the same functionality as a modchip with none of the negatives associated with a softmod.
Sof'ware (Score:2)
EMP2: Please pronounce sof'ware like Bill wants you to: SOF'WARE
sceptical (Score:1)
Yeah right.
Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
from Ars [arstechnica.com]
A little over a year ago, one of the people in my group modded an Xbox, installed Avalaunch, and put all sorts of Xbox mod scene apps on the box, like XBMC, RSS readers, etc, along with some "backup" games.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
this would be plenty useful for media players and other legitimate homebrew stuff but would make converting a pirated binary all but impossible without the source code and data files to modify for use
Re:Why? (Score:2)
One problem with that (from the business side) is that MS, and other console makers, sell their console at a loss in hopes of making that money back with the sales of games and accessories. If they sell consoles that people buy just for homebrew then they'll do nothing b
Re:Why? (Score:2)
Re:sceptical (Score:2)
Lone Starr: "And what does that make us?"
Bill Helmet: "Absolutely nothing! Which is exactly the license you had to mod this PSP!"
Re:sceptical (Score:2)
Whoawhoawhoa. Whoa.
Since when do I require a LICENSE to modify a piece of hardware that I purchased outright?
Re:sceptical (Score:3, Informative)
Wheee!
Re:sceptical (Score:3, Funny)
Do you think that's air you're breathing?
Re:sceptical (Score:2)
Re:sceptical (Score:2)
There's nothing illegal ('cept in the manufacturer's eyes) about cleaning the system and flashing Linux. Now if you want to "mod"ify the system and keep the OS on there...that is copyright infringement on the same scale as emulated video games.
Re:sceptical (Score:1)
Re:sceptical (Score:2)
That's not the way I heard it at all! It has nothing to do with mod chips and everything to do with chocolate chips.
This is the way it really happened.
Long before Microsoft actually wrote software, they were actually a fashionable department store. One day, a lady had lunch in the department store cafeteria during a long day shopping. For des
Something to think about... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's the equivalent of illegally downloaded songs several years ago. Apple was one of the first to "cash in" on it. They had managed to get people to pay for something they could get free.
If the big console manufacturers would do this, not only would it make their game systems more appealing, but it would put some more cash in their pockets...
Re:Something to think about... (Score:1)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:1)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:1)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:2)
Re:Something to think about... (Score:1)
If they would just give us what we want, and what is possible (just look at a modded xbox) and they would get all the gold they could eat.
Re:Something to think about... (Score:1)
Re:Idjits (Score:2)
Re:Idjits (Score:2)
If Microsoft has smart, they'd allow indie developers to submit apps to them to get signed for XBox Live. I know they are pushing XBox Live Arcade games, but most of these are ports of old arcade games.
I don't know if any of you actually have modded consoles, but my favorite aspect of my hacked XBox is XBoxMediaCenter (X
Re:Idjits (Score:2)
1M consoles * $-50 ea. = $-50M
1M consoles * 5 games ea. * $10 per game = $50M
$-50M +$50M = $0
Now if they sold double the consoles but fewer games per console (let's say an average of four) because o
Re:"Bill was intrigued" (Score:2)
Re:"Bill was intrigued" (Score:2)
Re:"Bill was intrigued" (Score:1)
Second, "group-based" phone interview: They called one freaking day early. There is no way that this was a miscommunication. This was on my calendar, and I verified the email while we called. I was caught off-guard, of course, but also felt like this was a genuinely c
How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:5, Insightful)
Except I can't play Japanese or European games with out a mod chip for the most part.
I can't play out of region DVDs.
I can't play any form of a backup of games I legally owned but was destroyed one way or another (I recently lost over 200 PSX and PS2 games because of a moving compnay, they can't find the boxes. Am I supposed to go rebuy Suikoden 1 and 2, Xenogears, Castlevania Symphony of the Night, and Disgaea all from scalpers on Ebay? )
I can't install an OS on the hard drive if I wish to.
I can't install the game on the Hard drive for performance boosts (not all games and systems get it but leave it an option, maybe even allow me to install the game and then use the game as a boot disc but the game must remain in the system)
I can't load music from my disc unless it's a music cd, I own a couple hundred cds, I use mp3s for ease of use, I have my top 200+ songs on a single cd, now the 360 wants me to insert every CD I own to rerip them to get those songs?
All this shit should at least have a way to achieve it. I can live with out backups and OSes, but region coding stuff makes the modchip necessary. Microsoft knows that they lose money on systems, so which is better? Forcing me to buy two systems to play games in two regions or buying one system and spending the other 400 dollars on games in the second region?
If I could ignore region codes on a system and install games for speed benefit, I wouldn't have a reason to get a mod chip except if my video games were destroyed or stolen from me and Microsoft or the developer didn't sell those games any more.
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:1)
Complain to the game companies who choose different distributors to distribute games in different regions.
I can't play out of region DVDs.
Complain to the entity which refuses to license players which lack region lockouts.
I can't play any form of a backup of games I legally owned but was destroyed one way or another (I recently lost over 200 PSX and PS2 games because of a moving compnay, they can't find the boxes. Am I suppo
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:3, Informative)
Except that's not the case, the person who says there's different regions is Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo. Nintendo makes a game and Nintendo of America will distribute in America, That game is not able to be played in Japan unless I own a US version of the Nintendo console. Getting that US version of the console is also abnormally hard as it is. I should be able to buy a Japanese 360 if i wish to, I have
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
There have also been rumors about the PS3 not having region locking, but I don't know if that's been verified as true or not. I do know that in the Blu-ray specifications, Japan & the US are part of the
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:1)
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
Nope. The 360 is perfectly capable of having region free games. Many (MotoGP, hitman, prey) ARE region free. IT's the publisher's choice. MS DO make the decision to regionalise first party games but they don't force it on anyone else.
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
Keep people from "installing" the game on all of their friends consoles.
If you read a little more carefully, you'll see he would accept a system that requires the game disc to be inserted each time; it's just having a large internal drive that caches the disc data, so yo
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
The Amiga was hugely popular in Europe as a games playing machine, mostly because the games were so easy to pirate... Everyone i know who had an Amiga had a huge selection of pirated games and a moderately sized collection of legitimate games. Despite what certain amiga commercial software authors will tell you, piracy did not kill the amiga, commodore killed the amiga through poor marketting and complacency.
Contrast this to console owners, who typically had qui
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:1)
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
What I'm saying is I can't buy it from the company, I can't buy it from the stores, I'll end up having to spend approximetly 200 dollars just getting those and probably closer to 300.
And I know the answer and I can't think of a solution, but I still would be happy if Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo could f
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
Right. For all your
So, close to US$20,000 originally, and here you're idly tossing around the concept of paying US$40,000 to US$60,000 to replace your videogames? Forgive me if the belief meter is running a little low here.
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
First off try to find those games on Ebay, for a new or mint condition game you're paying close to 100 dollars.
Do I want to have to pay that much for a single game? no but I'll have to in the end if I don't mod my system.
Btw If you could do the math, if I bought 200 games new it's 10,000 dollars, not 20,000. I'm tossing around the amount of 40,000 to 60,000 because that might be what it takes if every game was over priced as those five games are.
Re:How to solve the problem of mod chips. (Score:2)
You can't. They say they will get the boxes, they don't. They have you sign waivers and if you refuse to sign them they won't move your stuff at all, it's a basically a screw the consumer business.
The fact is they'll give me at best the value for the game, which will not be enough to replace them. I will have to go hunt down the copies of the game. That's the problem. I won't get the right amount for the games in the least though. And the claim process is "we know
Import games? Homebrew? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:2)
Which translates to:
The day they no longer sell hardware is the day I stop buying it.
Which, you know, is sort of self-evident.
(Yes, I know what you meant, your point is well taken, and I pretty much agree with you - but my internal logic parser couldn't resist the comment)
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:1)
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:3, Insightful)
And? If he goes to Japan and buys a fully white market copy of the game in the market it is to be distributed for, is the magic fairy going to come and let him play it on his Xbox? Distribution is a completely different beast than "access control" which did not legally exist until the DMCA added it to the lawbooks, and then only by protecting the methods of a
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:2)
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:3, Insightful)
First of all, what specific inalienable rights are you speaking of? Point them out to me specifically, because as far as I'm aware there is no inalienable right to compatibility. Yes, you have a right to own and do what you want with your property, but at no point does it say you have any right to compatibility. If any restriction, natural or artificial prevents you from getting total enjoyment out of a product, there is no
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:2)
Nitpicking, you do have the right to the enjoyment of your personal property and any action that interferes with that enjoyment may be actionable.
Re:Import games? Homebrew? (Score:1)
Why do marketing executroids think that applying limitations to a product, they can maximize profits? Doesn't it cost more money building these barriers in the first place? Imagine how much money the hardware manufacturers spent on developing region encoding when they could have dropped that "feature" complete
Can't condone importing?! (Score:2, Informative)
Importers don't care about the cost or time that goes into localization because they're playing a game without localization. None of those reasons make a lick of sense. Why should importers be affected by the costs of things they don't benefit from? And the cost of ads is beyond irrelevant to the ethicality of importing games.
This guy sai
Here's The Real Reason For DVD/Software Regions... (Score:2)
Re:Can't condone importing?! (Score:1)
The question you should be asking yourself is this: does importing a game make it more or less likely for a title to be distributed in multiple regions (keeping in mind distributing in multiple regions does include additional costs). Ask yourself if your answer remains the same for a niche title vs a blockbuster title.
MS Employees Debate Mod Chips....... (Score:2)
Functionality Extension - No CD Swappign (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd mod a console if only for the ability to install a bigger drive and an alternate dashboard. The killer feature in my mind is without a doubt the ability to switch between different games without fumbling with the physical media. Kids destroy physical media at an astonishing rate, CDs get lost, they're hard to find, and they're a pain to organize.
Yes, I realize this facilitates piracy, and that this is something that many modded console owners do. I don't care. I have a good enough job that I could buy enough old console games to keep my busy for a good while. I'm not going to let weak copy protection and the letter of a EULA stand between me and something I see as a reasonable extension of console functionality, especially on a console which comes with a hard drive.
As for #3, which the author "cannot condone," I'm not eating into their profits by extending the functionality in this manner. I'd still be buying all of the whizbang accessories and games that they use to put themselves in the black. They don't provide a product (so far as I know) that allows the user to load a game which they own without the CD, so I'm not eating into their profits as long as I don't violate my own mores and pirate a game.
I'm not asking that they condone mod chips, I'm just asking them to explore the ability to do something that a console with an upgradable hard drive is just BEGGING to do. It's like they're shipping cars with 4 disc brakes and the rear brakes are disconnected, and connecting them is illegal. It's just stupid.
Microsoft to encourage PSP modding... (Score:1)
Summary of the Article (Score:2)
"business model" == barrier to a fully free market (Score:2)
Razor Blade Model (Score:2)
Their main argument seems to be the razor blade model. If they sell them below cost, this kind of things loses them money. If they sell them at cost, no one buys them.
That's fair enough, but they have a third option. Sell consoles as they are, only make a special version (that will make up all your lost money then some) that lets users develop home brew stuff. Just charge 'em more. If you don't want to make a 2nd or 3rd SKU for that, sell a kit that does the same thing (and is priced accordingly).
The othe
Re:Razor Blade Model (Score:2)
Also, the Wii devkit is $2000. Which is still a lot of money to pay to work on homebrew, but if that's what you want to do, you're welcome to it.
Re:Razor Blade Model (Score:1)
Enable Community Development (Score:1)
What Microsoft wants to avoid is losing control of their monopoly of hardware. It is a slippery slope: Give users the ability to make homebrew games and content risks leaking the secrets of the console booting process.
The real question is thi
lol what (Score:1)
Why doesn't Microsoft make and sell the mod chip? (Score:1)
That way, Microsoft could recover the console subsidy and let amateur (home) developers try to develop software for the XBox?
Re:Why doesn't Microsoft make and sell the mod chi (Score:1)
Right sir, here are the keys to your new Ford. For a mere $1000 optional extra, we'll sell you the additional key that operates the aircon system we've already installed, but won't let you use.
How microsoft can allow homebrew without piracy (Score:3, Insightful)
With this devkit, you can build and compile XBOX 360 code. But, the code would only be signed for (and run on) the specific devkit.
If you want others to be able to use it, you can post the code and other devkit users can compile it and sign with their devkit key.
The libraries would provide access to the DirectX stuff and other features of the console with the following differences:
No access to run code from or read data from any disks in the optical drive. Everything would be loaded onto the hard disk only
Changes to the library to prevent pirate copies of normal 360 games from being made and run with this devkit and also to make it useless for real shops doing game development (licence aggrement would also prevent real shops from doing anything with this cheap kit)
Limits would be placed on network access
Then, there would be a way where people with something worth selling could approach microsoft and if its good enough, microsoft would allow it to be sold on XBOX live marketplace with microsoft getting $$$ from the sale.
They could even allow things like 360MC (to let you play all your media files on the 360) or the like. (as long as they get their cut)
No one actually discussing the article or issue? (Score:3, Interesting)
What gets me is when Andre suggests that you don't have a right to do something with hardware you purchased because you got it below it's real value. If someone wants to sell you something cheap, that doesn't mean that you own it less.
Bill Gates honestly seems to have changed his outlook on life in many ways. He went from publicly saying he doesn't believe in charity to becoming Time's Man of the Year for charity work. He claims that he wants to change Microsoft's business practices to be less confrontational, perhaps forced by the EU's fines.
I'm not shocked that Gates wants to reach out to creative people who are using the XBox in innovative ways. I believe that you can encourage this market, and use it as a means to showcase the power of your console, while at the same time discouraging piracy.
Right now despite all the anti-Sony sentiment, I'm seriously considering the $500 PS3 which I believe provides more value in the end than the $400 360. (Both have HDD's, neither have HDMI, PS3 has more power, Blu-Ray and free online play). Sony is also talking about allowing Linux on the PS3 out of the box, and allowing full homebrew development. If the 360 allowed me to run stuff like XBox Media Center, perhaps I'd be more interested in the 360. But given that the XBox is largely an x86 PC that runs a gimped version of Direct X, if the PS3 does allow for proper homebrew applications, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see an XBox emulator on the PS3. Hell, I have a PS1 and N64 emulator on my XBox right now.
Can you imagine a PS3 that plays PS3/2/1 and XBox games?
I think I need a wet-nap.
Re:No one actually discussing the article or issue (Score:2)
Re:No one actually discussing the article or issue (Score:2)
However, a gun has no real purpose other than killing things, which is rarely legal. A fully automatic weapon isn't exactly necessary for hunting geese. If you modify your radio to transmit
Re:No one actually discussing the article or issue (Score:2)
-Eric
Re:No one actually discussing the article or issue (Score:2)
Bought 2 X-Boxes, no games (Score:2)
My *sole* reason for buying them is to convert them to X-Box Media Centre players. I've got all our music CDs ripped and stored on a file server, along with my (bought) DVDs and TV recorded with Myth TV. After getting the X-Boxes chipped and attached to wireless bridges, I can play all this content through any TV in the house, without running wires around.
Althoug
Re:Bought 2 X-Boxes, no games (Score:2)
XBMC is ridiculously easy to operate (the menus are designed correctly and actually make sense), it plays everything right off the bat (something my PC wouldn't even do), has an amazing amount of useful features (automatic mp3 encoding and tagging from CD, imdb and allmusicguide look up for movies and albums) and even networks flawlessly with n
Change the business model (Score:3, Interesting)
This is fundamentally the same issue as in the mobile phone industry, where the phones are often sold at steep discounts - in exchange for being tied to a contract with increased costs of actually using the phone and/or a monthly charge.
At least here in Denmark, rules disallow many "deceptive" business practices, resulting in virtually all subsidized phones being sold with a contract that forces 6 months of payment (after which the monthly charge is typically reduced to zero (unless the plan includes free minutes / text messages or the like)). Additionally, stores are required to give the total (minimum) cost of the phone over the contract period. This allows consumers to easily compare prices.
Thus consumers are perfectly willing to pay for a mobile phone by laying down X dollars now and Y dollars a month for Z number of months. Maybe some are deluding themselves into thinking, that they're actually getting something for those Y dollars a month, but I'd wager most aren't.
Why shouldn't this exact same "solution" work for console makers? Especially now that consoles feature internet accounts.
Microsoft could then sell its console for the same price as before, but include a contract for 6 months of "Xbox Live Diamond" access at some monthly charge.
Re:Change the business model (Score:2)
I wish they'd do that over here (UK). So many people seem to fall for those "half price line rental for three months" tricks etc.