Fantasy Trumps Sci-Fi For MMOs 408
simoniker writes "Mythic's Mark Jacobs, whose MMO company is being acquired by EA, has commented in detail on why fantasy MMOs sell better as part of an extended interview. He suggests of MMOs: 'Fantasy is easier than sci-fi. Want to know why? It's simple. A gun. What's a gun? A gun is impersonal. A gun can shoot somebody from across the room... Part of the challenge we found with Imperator is how do you make a combat system based on lasers and energy weapons, compelling to an RPG audience. The other challenge with a sci-fi game is that fantasy is very well defined in our minds ... I also think there's something I can't explain, which is that people are more willing to play a fantasy game that's not as good online, than they are willing to play a sci-fi game that's not as good online. And I'm not sure why that is.' Suggestions?"
Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with it (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not so sure the guns are the issue. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm thinking offhand, but most of the time your classic fantasy stories have been about parties of heroes (witness Tolkien) whereas classic scifi has tended to be much more individualist (even with the Matrix, the main character so strongly overshadowed the others that it didn't really feel very much like a group effort). (Maybe Star Wars is an exception to this, and the Star Wars games have tended to be fairly successful, although some people call it space-based fantasy instead of science fiction anyway.)
I can't really think of any compelling party-leaning science fiction stories at the moment. And this translates out to the scifi games I've tried, from single player stuff to MUDs. They've all felt very "lonely." In fantasy, you have clearly defined classes with separate roles and you tend to need a group of them to get anywhere, which is begging for a multiplayer setting.
Keep in mind that I'm only on my first cup of coffee, though.
Re:I'm not so sure the guns are the issue. (Score:4, Interesting)
There's loads (think Star Wars fiction, Warhammer 40K fiction etc.) just like there are loads of fantasy books with lone protagonists (Kane, Elric, Conan - none of them exclusively solo but often).
Re:Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with it (Score:2, Interesting)
Guns are an issue in RPGs, as I see it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Everyone wants their MMO to basically be Everquest with a different tileset, and the camera doesn't suit the kind of long-range fighting that gun battles suggest. If I point at an enemy and click to shoot at it, I want to shoot at it, not have a bunch of stat monkeys decide whether my character is good enough to do so.
So the setup practically demands an FPS control instead of an RPG one, and then your nearest city descends into Lag Hell. Oops.
Re:Sci-Fi vs Fantasy (Score:2, Interesting)
Books and movies? (Score:2, Interesting)
Fantasy trumps science because... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Guns are an issue in RPGs, as I see it. (Score:5, Interesting)
Also the sci fi ones to date have been pretty luck lustre and/or have been mishandled, developing undesirable reputations. The fantansy ones have also tended to have pretty much a zero learning curve allowing the more unskilled game players easy access (in fact they can just buy in and all they have to do is learn how to spell their name and password).
Re:Other weapons (Score:5, Interesting)
We're surrounded by so much technology nowadays that immersing yourself for eight hours in even more technology in a sci-fi Mmorp seems completely overbearing, whereas a technology-free world is like an escape.
Re:Other weapons (Score:2, Interesting)
We don't even expect much different gameplay, all we want is a game that doesn't put us into a quasi-medieval scenario. Star Wars is fantasy but it's a refreshing change from the usual swords, magic, dragons and orcs you get in 97% of all fantasy settings. Same with WW2 shooters vs. Prey, it's not about gameplay as much as it is about us being sick and tired of shooting Nazis in different implementations of the same few battles.
Shadowrun please! (Score:2, Interesting)
Humanoid (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, somebody might not immediately identify with a Posleen (basically centaur-structured lizards), but the badasses from the Alien series are pretty identifiable (ever played AvP), and the Kzinti/Kilrathi are pretty much fuzzy people.
Thinking about it, one of the previous comments [slashdot.org] definately hits near the mark. People will identify with being an orc, hill-giant, or hobbit because they're common fantasy characaters. People could also identify with being a Klingon, Geiger-Alien, Predator, Kzinti, etc.... but that's not going to happen because when you include them all you're probably going to have your ass sued into the next starsystem by the copyright owners of Star Trek, Aliens, Predator, and the Larry Niven books. I suppose you could make similar characters and/or use parody (a-la SpaceQuest), but look at what happen with City of Heroes and the lawsuits wherein players could make characters similar to movie entities.
Anothe reason why current Intellectual Property laws suck ass, while using a Klingon named "Worf" in your game might be dubious, you shouldn't be attacked for having something klingon-like, hell it's a compliment to the creators.
Re:Other weapons (Score:1, Interesting)
The main reason you see sci-fi mmo games not doing well is because they pretty much all suck, not as many have been made, they have not
gone through as many iterations as fantasy mmos. look how long it took to finally make a decent fantasy mmo game. (by decent i mean on a large scale to a very large audience).
Maybe fantasy roles are more clearly defined (Score:2, Interesting)
Mark Jacobs, and his rein of utter destruction... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:hey now... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:hey now... (Score:3, Interesting)
-Pinkoir
Fantasy not imaginative (Score:3, Interesting)
Isn't this phrase a bit contradictory? Shouldn't this be setting of warning alarms in what is supposed to be a creative industry? Maybe the problem isn't sci-fi vs fantasy, maybe it's stuck-in-a-safe-rut vs being-creative-and-coming-up-with-new-ideas?
Maybe we need a new name for what are now popular yet highly generic fictional "fantasy" worlds, such as "Olde Tyme Wizard's Worlde" so that "fantasy" can go on being imaginative. The whole fantasy genre as it stands is terribly predictable, after all. Sci-fi isn't doing much better.
"The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy."
Some might call it semantics.... (Score:4, Interesting)
'The Shifting Reality of Phillip K. Dick' [everything2.com] contain many different short stories and pieces of speeches he gave throughout his life; in one of those speeches Dick espouses his definition of science fiction which goes something like this: A science fiction story takes place in a world that is not our world, but could be. In other words, the story is grounded in some sort of reality that we know. Star Wars has no such grounding, unless someone knows where I can find me some Ewoks to enslave.
I have only played SWG, and the star wars franchise is the only one mentioned that I have knowledge of so I'll limit my critique to that but clearly it's just shitty fantasy. Star Wars has been shitty fantasy for a long time and has never been science fiction. It's childish and nonsensical...
PS: If you think I've just commited an act that merits hari kari, stand up from your desk walk outside and breath some fresh air...
Because Sci-Fi MMO has too many standards (Score:3, Interesting)
Lately I have been playing Darkstar One, which to me is a re-incarnation of WC: Privateer, but with a better looking ship, and weapons. I have been into this game the moment I found the demo, and have been playing non-stop even though at this point all I am doing in the game is playing the randomly generated 'quickie cash' missions. (I'm improving my Saitek X45 flyin g skills)
I've gotten into EVE, and I really love the vast universe it brings to me. I could get lost into such a vast sci-fi mmo, but one things holds me back from getting into the 'monthly pay for' phase of game play. Its the interaction with my piloting of my space(craft)ship.
Sci-Fi MMOs have to abide by higher gameplay standards than that of Fantasy MMOs. Fantasy has to create scenic worlds, on a planet. While Sci-Fi, needs to create planets, within galaxies, to which even our own knowledge of the universe is incomplete so everything must be created theroy. While I will settle for EVE mixed with Freelance, and Privateer qualities, physics and game play are very hard to incorporate into a MMO. How about the alien races. I'm pretty sure, that a Sci-Fi MMO could just involve humans the way EVE has done. The storyline is impresive, create 6 human races with entirely different cultures. Attempt to create a universe with peace. Give the player a ship, and tell him to survive in space. DONE.
Just make the space physics, economy, social interaction (go ahead and create space stations with NPCs, hell make planets with NPCs too... Go as far as allowing people to goto 10 or more places on one planet) But as long as I can combat like a pilot against uneven odds of space pirates/bounty hunters/alien races, then fly home on the last leg of my spaceship to the nearest solar system to fix my ship, and fix my next job, then... and ONLY THEN will I be happy.
Here is what I would want in a Sci-Fi MMO;
1. Vast Universe... (EVE's universe is huge... I know it would take me years to goto each solar system, only to go back to one, and its been changed entirely. Thats how reality works too)
2. Human/Alien Races... (I have no problem dealing with some foreign alien, Rule #1 if it shoots at me, I shoot back. nuff said)
3. Economy... (EVE, excells, heck I could possibly find enough friends to help me manage a vast company in EVE, but hell, I need better friends to help me manage my OWN finances. Make the economy complex, but also allow for some form of automation, that will pay the ingame bills, every time you goto a planet/space station)
4. Gameplay Interaction... (This one is what EVE lacks. Put in some flight controls, and first person POV so I can duke it out with space pirates. If my ship exploids then... shits, I'm a bad pilot. Restart at the nearist planet/spacestation, and lose the mission.)
5. Gameplay cont... (As with Dying, respawning is not a bad idea for Sci-Fi.. heck we don't explain WHY when I die in Guild Wars, I end up alive at the nearest gateway, why not in a sci-fi sim as well) With Darkstar One, when I die at the lasers of a pirate, I just reload my most recently autosaved game, and retry.
6. graphics... (Things can't get worse from todays standards of MMO graphics, so at this point it can only get more detailed, or stay the same. EVE has done well with the online MMO for Sci-fi graphics)
7. Customizability of... (Characters, Ok, so Fantasy allows you to customize how your character looks, Sci-Fi can do the same thing with characters. You start off as a person/alien anyways, so let us customize five or more races of human or alien.)
8. Customizability of... (Spaceships, well for sci-fi why not customize your spaceship. Give users 10 or more types of spaceships they can start from, and then allow us to customize the wings, engines, shields, paint jobs, computers, etc. I know we'll upgrad
Perhaps the character representation is flawed (Score:3, Interesting)
LS
Re:Other weapons (Score:2, Interesting)
But by necessity, at some point, they'll have to make a concession. After all, in faster-than-light travel were perfectly explainable, and we had the schematics for all the necessary machinery and could present it in such a way as to be understood by the average intellectual, my guess is we'd be well on our way to Alpha Centauri by now. We can try to make sci-fi realistic, but eventually we just have to take it on faith that "yes, this works, we figured it out, and no I can't really explain it in great detail." At some level the distinction blurs between sci-fi and fantasy--because if everything in sci-fi were possible and explicable, then it wouldn't really be sci-fi, it would just be fiction.
But is the dearth of sci-fi games a function of the genre, or just an unfortunate circumstance of the MMO market? I would argue that it's not because fantasy games are harder, it's because MMO makers are retarded. Most fantasy MMOs suck too. It's just that a few companies have managed to make good games, which happened to be in a fantasy setting. Sooner or later someone will make a good game that happens to be in a sci-fi setting. It's not a question of difficulty per genre, but one of simple economics. WoW has now provided an excellent formula for a fantasy MMO. No one has done so for a sci-fi MMO. Which genre has the better risk/return ratio?
It's been done before! (Score:1, Interesting)
Earth and Beyond (shut down when EA aquired the company leading that): Had an advanced crafting system that was ahead of it's time and was a primarily based space fighter! http://enb.rpgplanet.gamespy.com/ [gamespy.com] (Most of EnB sites are now down.)
Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided: Had several ranged profession (carbineer, pistoleer, rifleman, bounty hunter, smuggler) as well as melee professions, with a space based expansion that came later on and an interesting take on crafting classes. The game is now in ruins though, the development team that was put in place to develop the product was new to the MMORPG world and throughout the games life it has seemed to be in 'beta' because of that. www.starwarsgalaxies.com
PlanetSide: A complete FPS battlefield using ranged weapons for a majority of the combat (aka you can use a knife) www.planetside.com
Eve Online: I'll let the site speak for itself http://www.eve-online.com/ [eve-online.com]
RF Online: http://www.codemasters.com/rfonline/news.php?them
So, can you really say fantasy > Sci-Fi?
MMOs the Problem (Score:2, Interesting)
What I wonder is why haven't we seen the equivalint of a Fantasy FPS?
Re:I'm not so sure the guns are the issue. (Score:1, Interesting)
EVE Online has already been mentioned in this thread, but what you're talking about has already been accomplished there. The most effective PvP groups have at least:
- Offensive damage dealers
- Electronic warfare ships (doing anything from target jamming enemy ships to disrupting enemy turret tracking, making them hit less often)
- Fast, small 'tacklers' (fitted for speed, agility and propulsion jamming equipment to keep enemy ships from escaping)
- One or two covert ops frigates (which scout ahead, cloaked, for enemy targets as well as utilize scan probes to find enemy ships sitting in space)
There are a myriad of other 'classes' that are not as necessary for a successful pvp expedition, but certainly do help. A nicely mixed group of players will do infinitely better than a single player by himself, and no major advances into enemy territory are made by anything short of a fleet of players (usually 50+). Capital ships are usually not introduced into the battlefield until there are at least 50-100 friendly pilots grouped together, and due to defenses on player owned starbases you need capital ships to destroy them. Everything about the game is team oriented, it's very difficult to be effective on your own (though it is possible).
I think it is the guns, and it is the movies. (Score:5, Interesting)
The gunfight is far faster, spot, shoot, kill.
While in real life a hit with a broadsword is probably as much an instant kill as a bullet in the head, movies have made us believe that sword fights last minutes while gunfights are over in a matter of seconds.
Now take a look at the various MMORPG's games. Because of the general lack of AI or anything approaching tactics let alone strategy most fights are about wearing down the enemies hitpoints slowly in a prolonged duel. No instant kills allowed. It just doesn't fit in the gameplay.
SWG offcourse had guns and believe me that after years of movies and books and other star wars games it came as something of a shock to find that stormtroopers do not die instantly if you hit them with a blaster shot. Neither two, nor three, nor five. In fact during a period before the dreaded CU/NGE debacle you had roving bands of stormies that had some very big brothers that could whoop your ass. But apperently not spot you sniping their platoon down one by one. Well when I say sniping I mean firing away at their heads with concealed shot for about five to ten minutes a piece.
Not that the melee combat was any better but at least that seems acceptable. You can parry my sword blows but how exactly do you stop an energy bolt straight between the eyes? It gets Jagged Alliance kind of silly where you shoot somebody with a machine gun at point blank range, only somehow manage to hit them once, in the head and they still fight with 94% of their health gone in the next round. WTF? Any notion of suspense of disbelief is gone. You are in a spreadsheet with pretty picture mate. Not fighting the evil empire. Or rebel scum.
The same problems occurs ofcourse in KOTOR with the damn lightsabers. You get this cool weapon that can slice through anything except it seems clothes, swords and any piece of armour. That wasn't the deal!
Guns don't work in current MMORPG gameplay. For instant kills to work you need more enemies, they need to be more intelligent (how many MMORPG's are there were the enemy is even capable of seeking cover?) and you need far better code for instance collesion detection to avoid people targetting and shooting through walls. Already a pain with swordfights it could make gunfights with instant kill even more frustating.
Oh and if you add instant kill on the enemies, do you add it on the player? A modern war based MMORPG would suck for the point guy. Spend an hour getting ready to get to the quest area only to be ambushed and get a bullet in face and be forced to respawn.
Your argument of aloneness doesn't ring true to me. Star Trek is very much a group off people, especially the original series, while say the entire TES series of games (Oblivion) is very very lonely.
People accept a resistance to fire. They do not accept a resistance to hot lead. MMORPG structure at the moment just can't do gunfights. Hell, single games can barely do it. FEAR and that old Lucasarts cowboy game are about the only games I remember where there was movie style gunfights going on.
Re:Other weapons (Score:1, Interesting)
EON [eve-online.com] operates on a two tiered model, ships for options, but characters (pods) for skill advancement. A character with very crummy skills and a good ship will no doubt lose to a character with a less than average ship and very good skills in combat.
The ships require some sort of grind (or getting lucky pirating) to acquire, but skills are relatively free to learn. (Barring a few notable exceptions.) Not only which, skills are based on character longevity so it gives longtime players an advantage over short-timers (griefers, and noobs.) Blah, more rants. Eve did it pretty well, so did vendetta, both I play in linux. (Eve with cedega, vendetta has a native client.)
There are good Sci-fi MMO's they only cater to those who want them tho, and it seems there isn't as big a draw as to Fantasy MMO's (can you say girrrlz?) Blame it on the lack of targetted engineering education to women, but if you can only hope to target half the population (mainly men, 4-8% women) with your ads, how can you expect to expand much?
Yeah argue all you want, these games are sausage fests way more than even WoW, and that's saying something.
Re:Three Words: (Score:1, Interesting)
Levelling (Score:2, Interesting)
In fantasy based ones you can start the character with a quarterstaff or a short sword etc, and has they get better they can progress to decent stuff (larger, two-handed etc)
With sci-fi, you've start with some kinda of gun weapon, but realistically there is no reason why your weedy level 1 character can't fire the super weapons straight off...its not like pulling the trigger is harder to do. So to get the progression the devs have to unrealistically hamper the character.
Also in a similar vein, who cares if your stronger in a scifi enviro, the guns aren't going to do more damage are they?
and without this levelling, there is no real progression apart from the story...so you need a utterly excellent (planescape torment level excellent) story arcs.
just my pov...