Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List 571
An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"
IT? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.
It's not so bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
</sarcasm>
Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.
Justice, in America? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.
Ayn Rand was an optimist.
I can't wait! (Score:3, Insightful)
Spooky,,, (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:WTF (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm very much worried about the reliablity of my sources also, but rejecting a story just because it isn't from a headlining news source?
That just seem as dead-brained as blindly believing anything anyone says.
Re:WTF (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat. Now then, care to explain what makes an eastern paper more credible?
Re:Innocence (Score:2, Insightful)
Ha! Everyone's doing something wrong. We just need to find out what it is.
The spirit of Tailgunner Joe lives on.
I'd rather be safe than free (Score:4, Insightful)
[neo con parody off]
Quotas for security personnell (Score:5, Insightful)
God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being
Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.
Jean Pierre Melville said it best (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're all missing something very bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
Re:Secure the foil and ditch the scat porn... (Score:2, Insightful)
The stereotypical image of the tin-foil hat donning conspiracy nut is finally laid to rest, the government really are watching!
This crap must have to happen every so many years. We had the Commie witch-hunt in the 50's (Ever listen to a radio play, "I Was A Communist For The FBI"?), Nixon's personal enemies list of the late 60's/early 70's (included well known subversive peace activist and pot smoker John Lennon), now under W. You know W's regime is loaded with old Cold Warriors, right? Some ideas die hard. If we don't have an emeny, we create one, thus keeping the public's attention on the War while we loot the treasury.
Sheep (Score:3, Insightful)
Bigger than the Las Vegas Air Marshll office (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF (Score:3, Insightful)
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
Why? Just how many terrorists do you think are out there? And of them, how many will be trying to take over a plane? If there were even a handful trying this, then it would be all over the news (as it supports the government agenda). And if someone isn't trying to take over the plane then what on Earth makes them suspicious and worth putting on a watch list? Flying while asian? Reading Noam Chomsky? Not only is the government jumping at shadows, it's now got a quota of how many shadows you have to jump at each month?
no big surprise here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bullshit (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:3, Insightful)
I have mod points, but unfortunately there isn't a mod option for "trotting out the same old Ayn Rand quote whether it's applicable or not"
These people aren't being turned into criminals. They aren't breaking laws.
Don't get me wrong, I don't support what's going on. Hopefully it's another step towards the populace finally taking a stand against overly authoritarian government and saying 'no more'.
But please, enough of the Ayn Rand already.
Re:Secret government list? (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, I'm feeling more secure everyday...Not.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, the Bushco solution to that is simply to keep laws secret. Not only do you save printing costs and shelf space, but it then becomes impossible to be sure that you're not breaking them. And when you inevitably do, your lawyer can't defend you because she's not allowed to read the applicable law, either.
All hail the GOP!
Re:I'd rather be safe than free (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the most concise interpretation of the Franklin quote I've seen to date. Seriously. Good job.
The unfortunate part is that a lot of people in this country really would rather be safe than free. Or to be more precise, they want to FEEL safe than be free. True safety will never occur. Period. Just when you think every risk has been mitigated something new will come along. Its just human nature. Hell, scratch that, its the universe. Whether it be an act of violence, terrorism, or an asteroid slamming into the Earth, bad things will always find a way. The only solution is to accept it, move on, and live life to the fullest.
In regards to terrorism, Americans simply need accept that despite our best efforts bad people will do bad things from time to time, and if anything bad does happen they'll be punished for it. Surrendering to our fears and trading liberty for security is the cowards way out. The last 5 years has been a dark time in our nation's history, but its time we change that and start embracing the liberties we still have left. Put your chin up and your best foot forward and lets show them they can't keep us down.
Re:Please read the related article..... (Score:4, Insightful)
they are there for psychological puposes, so that people who think there is a threat feel safer. people can point to some action that the government is doing. "look, they have air marshalls and no-fly lists."
there is no worldwide terror organzation or network. go to archive.org and download (bbc documentary) the power of nightmares (i wonder how long it'll be up?) i have friends who work for "homeland security" and it's all a sham. too bad it costs us money.
Re:It's not so bad... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't contractors taking advantage of the system, but rather that it's bureaucrats running the system. You don't get paid any more for doing a good job instead of a bad job, and the bureacracy as a whole actually benefits from bad jobs because they'll get more funding to fix the problem.
Re:Secret government list? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:News for nerds? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?
this whole site slides further and further to the left every day
So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)
Re:News for nerds? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:News for nerds? (Score:2, Insightful)
And how is simply putting the story on the site transparent bias? Because only lefties would be interested in reading a story about government monitoring? Please.
And on a wider topic, can I just tell you how freaking sick I am of reading jaded comments on every story about this or that is not worth of being posted to Slashdot? If you all don't like the stories posted IGNORE THE STORY AND DON'T READ IT or even START YOUR OWN DAMN SITE AND POST WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT.
Re:News for nerds? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Justice, in America? (Score:4, Insightful)
And they couldn't pay this out of existing assets -- this is to keep rich folks from simply walking -- it would have to be paid out of money earned by labor after the crime, in some industry chosen by the judge. And this would be after recouping the State for their imprisonment.
They could take some of those jobs the politicians keep saying that we need illegal immigrants for, because "Americans won't do them." After a few weeks in an 8x8, even scouring the inside of a sewage-treatment holding tank somewhere, sweating your ass off tarring roofs, or picking strawberries from dawn till dusk, probably seems positively fascinating.
Obviously, violators who are security risks and can't be let out into society would have to be given your basic in-prison license-plate stamping jobs, but there are probably a lot of non-violent, low-security inmates who could be let out during the day with some sort of GPS collar on to work and come back at night. If they didn't return, you could have a standard reward for bringing them back and have bounty hunters to it (and add that to their tab, naturally).
It's ridiculous that we have people just sitting around in prison, essentially doing nothing but being a cost to society after they've already been a cost to society (doing whatever it was that landed them in prison in the first place). At the very least, prison should be a break-even proposition. There's more than enough crappy manual labor to be done, particularly in the agricultural industries; we might as well put our prisoners to work, especially since the jobs are just going to illegal immigrants anyway -- the old argument that they'd be taking the jobs from legitimate industry doesn't apply.
Re:Quotas for security personnell (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's what really pisses me off about it:
When I was in grade school, I was taught about how great and free the USA was, and how horrible the USSR was, and the reasons were that over there people had to show their papers everywhere they went, the government was constantly spying on them, and they could be locked away without due process of law based solely on the accusation of treasonous acts.
Now those same things that made the USSR so bad are starting to happen here, and I'm told that this is okay because we're the USA, and we're inherently better.
It used to be that the USA was great and free because we didn't do those things. Now we're great and free because we're the USA, and therefore its okay for us to do these things. Greatness is now an inherent property of the USA, not the result of our actions.
The sad part is that I really believed what I was taught as a kid, that the USA was great because it did great things, and seeing what's going on now, even if it isn't nearly as bad as the USSR, strikes deeply at that childish part of me that still believes in honor, freedom, and greatness.
Supervision for air marshalls (Score:2, Insightful)
It seems as if there's already a check and balance: the flight crew.
So what's the real reason for the quotas? Budget? Do I even need to ask?
Re:I think you're all missing something very bad.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.
Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, here's an idea: take all those government parasites that harass airplane passengers, run eavesdropping programs, make threats to journalists, and violate the constitution in so many other ways, and drop them all in Pakistan with hunting rifles. Sooner or later, a group of them will have to stumble onto Bin Laden's cave. And voila, terrorism is dealt a serious blow, Americans are substantially less annoyed, and taxes can go down because the government is no longer paying a bunch of people to fail at making America safer.
Re:Obvious solution.... (Score:3, Insightful)
But then somebody would realize that the quota system was stupid. That would defeat the whole purpose.
No, the purpose is not to defeat terrorism. The purpose is to look like you're defeating terrorism.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's not so bad... (Score:3, Insightful)
Assholes, if you SCAN a person and there are not any traces of this or that banned/suspicious substance on their person or in their luggage, then don't hinder their flying. Otherwise, JAIL them under charges that are real. We live. We die. But like the reckless fisherman out for tuna, all sorts of other items/people get caught up in the drag/trawl net.
Pretty soon, someon'll extend this to: "The No RAIL" system, "The NO BUS" system. "The Nor RAZOR/Scooter" system, and "The NO CAB" system. (Months ago, I rode in a cab in SF and saw a camera watching me in the back seat...). They won't be satisfied until one too many a prominent person is delayed one time too many. Hopefully, such a person does the right thing and rips some ass, once and for all.
This is absolutely nuts. No longer Innocent til proved guilty. RFID/Biometric passports. All because a few assholes dump their friends, kick over a hornet's nest or two, then want all the rest of us to be stung for it.
I suppose next (if not already in existence) there will be an "unreliable/unable to clear for patriotism/hireability background check..." meaning no matter your grades, your interviews (if you don't get screened out in advance), your community service/volunteer work, no matter you passion to SAVE the world by legal/non-violent means, you're FUCKED.
(Cross the cabal, the cadge, the cloister, and you're doomed.
Maybe somebody ought to crack the lottery and share the money with those burned for trying to save the world?)
But, as it is, some employers so much want to wring/extract utility from employees and contractors they don't even want to contract or hire them/us unless they/we have a frickin' car. And I'm using public transit cuz I cannot afford a car, and if I could, I'd STILL use public transit to be just ONE MORE PERSON trying to minimize the oil addiction.
I suppose I'm on all sorts of shit list by now, if not long ago...
Re:Wait (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, since 9/11, American's are now less safe than before.
How can that be?
Because the cost of airline travel in both time, money, and convenience has gone up. That has made more Americans look to alternatives, like driving, which are much, much less safe (per passenger-mile).
We'd probably be more safe had we responded to 9/11 by literally doing nothing at all.
control, power politics (Score:1, Insightful)
The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. It does not matter if the people being terrorized are "guilty" of anything or not, what matters is that all the citizens OBEY ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. You WILL meekly submit to random checkpoints, searches at the airport, having your property seized-whatever they say. You will not "protest" except in designated "zones". And etc, the whole nine yards. check, this is accomplished now, for 99% of the population-all good little herd critters. They have the gun toters terrorized into following all orders, they have the citizenry terrorized into following orders, they have about all it takes it appears.
The second part is, once they get into the mass culling-which all police state dictatorships eventually do, ALL of them, history has shown no exceptions, it's handy to have a list to work off of for the steroid pumped up mouth breathers they send out for the pick ups. If it is 10% or 20% of the population-they don't care, less "useless eaters" for them to manage. More terrorism for the remainder, keeps them even more cowed.
Think I am joking about this? Not in the least...it's going to happen, too. These demons kill people daily to get their way, 24/7/365, what makes people think they will stop or slow down?
It's OVER, the coup plotters won. Whether or not they will hang in for a long time is the only remaining variable now. There is no 'voting" these creatures away, and at the tippy top levels, both Ds and Rs are involved, those little dramas on TV are to keep the plebes amused and thinking that there is somehow a 'government' they have some say in.
Re:Ayn Rand was an optimist. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's also a shame there isn't a mod option for "trotting out the same old knee-jerk, ad hominem Ayn Rand criticism whether it's applicable or not."
Put another way: if there were no Godwin, the Nazis would have found it useful to invent him.
Rest assured that ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think I'd prefer to go via Japan and Russia now-a-days. Seriously, US citizens, it really _is_ time for a regime change in the White House. The Republicans seem to have taken too many pages out of the Nazi rule books for my liking.
Re:Wait (Score:3, Insightful)
But still, I say a safety statistic that lumps all drivers into one category is meaningless.